Todmorden Curve

[Hebden Bridger]

There was a long piece in yesterday's Todmorden News about the visit of Northern's MD to Todmorden. There was a significant couple of quotes hidden at the end in which he said the agreement to run a service over the curve was still being negotiated with Lancashire County Council and that no trains would run until a contract was signed.

The article isn't on line, but I'll try to get a copy myself.

I had heard local tittle-tattle that lack of money rather than lack of trains was the reason for the non-introduction of trains in May, this perhaps confirms this.

 

[spongsdad]

There was a long piece in yesterday's Todmorden News about the visit of Northern's MD to Todmorden. There was a significant couple of quotes hidden at the end in which he said the agreement to run a service over the curve was still being negotiated with Lancashire County Council and that no trains would run until a contract was signed.

The article isn't on line, but I'll try to get a copy myself.

I had heard local tittle-tattle that lack of money rather than lack of trains was the reason for the non-introduction of trains in May, this perhaps confirms this.

This sounds like the chicken and the egg. On the one hand, Northern won't run trains without a contract; on the other, Lancs C.C. are unwilling to sign a contract for a service provided by non existent train sets. Meanwhile each party can lay the blame at the other party's door. Probably no change from December 2014.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

.... Mr Hynes said "Lancashire County Council pressed Network Rail to build a curve and we are in discussions with LCC to operate the service. But actually we don't have a contract yet and until we have a contract we can't operate the service. As soon as LCC and Northern reach agreement we can make plans to operate the service."

Going public on the state of negotiations in my experience is often the result of there being an impasse. It'll be interesting to see what LCC have to say.

 

[Starmill]

Weeeeeeeee look at us we are such a wonderful country we can design, finance and build a piece of public infrastructure but we're just so joined up that can't actually sort out a way to operate a service over it commercially or otherwise

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is still a 20mph PSR through Holme Tunnel.
It gives you more time to admire the purple rhododendrons cascading down the hillsides hereabouts (all the way down to Hebden Bridge).
They looked magnificent today, even in the pouring rain.

Actually the worst PSR on the route is the quarter mile of 10mph through Accrington station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is still a 20mph PSR through Holme Tunnel.
It gives you more time to admire the purple rhododendrons cascading down the hillsides hereabouts (all the way down to Hebden Bridge).
The looked magnificent today, even in the pouring rain.

Actually the worst PSR on the route is the quarter mile of 10mph through Accrington station.

Though don't all services (including the Todmorden Curve service if and when it materialises) call at Accrington anyway? In which case a 10mph restriction probably has less of an impact than the Holme Tunnel one, despite being lower.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Though don't all services (including the Todmorden Curve service if and when it materialises) call at Accrington anyway? In which case a 10mph restriction probably has less of an impact than the Holme Tunnel one, despite being lower.

I'm not a regular user of the line, but eastbound it's noticeable that you virtually stop well before Accrington station and then crawl into the platform.
Restarting it's another crawl to about half-way across the viaduct.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What exactly is the cause of the Accrington speed restriction and are there any measures that could help in this matter ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Something tells me it's to do with a bridge just west of the station but I'm not 100%. I'm not sure what the benefits would be of improvements however, everything calls at Accy and you'd need to slow perhaps just a handful of yards later from a higher speed to stop anyway, the time difference would be a minute tops at a guess.

A speed restriction across Accy Viaduct isn't something that concerns me though, it is one of the very few things worth looking out of the window for on Blackpool North-York.

 

[30907]

The 10mph is for the reverse curve into the station (which used to be the junction with the Baxenden Bank route). I suspect there's little that can be done there. There's a separate less severe restriction W of the station (can't remember details but I think it's nominally a tsr)

 

[edwin_m]

It's on a viaduct with various parts of Accrington down below, so I can't see any prospect of it being improved. As stated it's due to the former triangle towards Bury - I can't remember what order it was built but the surviving curve looks as if it might be the last part and therefore on a less than ideal alignment.

 

[158756]

Sorry, I'm not sure how to post links in here, but the Lancashire Telegraph's website is presently reporting that the new service is going to be delayed until next May. The paper says this is because Network Rail haven't installed the signalling required at the Burnley end of the curve and won't be doing so until February.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

East Lancashire's faster train service delayed by another six months

RAIL bosses have been accused of 'sheer incompetence' after admitting that East Lancashire's long-awaited faster train service to Manchester has been delayed by at least another six months.

Network Rail has confirmed signalling work on the Todmorden Curve will not be completed until February with the service now not starting until May next year.

The route to Manchester will start in Blackburn and stop at Accrington and Burnley's Manchester Road station.

The service will slash rail times between Burnley and Manchester Victoria to around only 45 minutes and is expected to give the local economy a massive boost.

The latest setback follows the announcement last year that there wasn't a diesel train available for the new service to start in May and was put back until December, despite the completion of the track.

It has emerged that while signals were installed at the south-western end of the curve, allowing a new Todmorden to Manchester service to be launched, the job was not completed around the junction heading from Burnley.

Angry council bosses in Burnley have insisted that each month of delay is costing the borough's economy an estimated £1million and they have urged that 'heads must roll'.

...

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...vice_delayed_by_another_six_months/?ref=var_0

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...vice_delayed_by_another_six_months/?ref=var_0

I can see more rejoicing at this news taking place at the TransDev depot that runs the X43 Lancashire Witch service to Manchester...

How will the prospective rail passengers from Burnley who had hoped to be using this new rail service to Manchester be feeling now ? I think that the Lancashire Telegraph will milk this story for all that it worth, considering that there were no train units available to run the service until December.

 

[spongsdad]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...vice_delayed_by_another_six_months/?ref=var_0

This story contrasts, nicely with the recent documentary series on the £15 billion Crossrail project which appears to be coming in to budget and on time. The Todmorden Curve project, on the other hand, seems to be beset by setbacks, delays and, to be brutal about it, absolute cock-ups. If the substance of the Lancashire Telegraph story is correct, then someone should be getting his/her P45 for incompetence. The good people of East Lancashire deserve better than this and at the minimum they deserve a full explanation as to what has gone wrong and why, together with a fulsome apology.

 

[Rail Ranger]

This doesn't gel somehow because surely a railtour went all the way round the curve not long after it was commissoned? Was the signalling only commissioned in one direction at the "Burnley" end?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

This doesn't gel somehow because surely a railtour went all the way round the curve not long after it was commissoned? Was the signalling only commissioned in one direction at the "Burnley" end?

Good point. Similarly if it's already in use at the Todmorden end for reversing terminating services then surely that means the only signal there could be a problem with would be the (feathered?) one leaving the Copy Pit line onto the curve in a southbound direction I've only done the line once each way since the Holme Tunnel works and was sat on the wrong side passing to check: it will be a while before I'm next out that way (the end of the month) but I'll have a look when I next pass.

Edit - Ah, apparently that is the problem! Out of interest how long would that take to rectify? Does it require long-planned / widespread work to implement?

 

[158756]

I can see more rejoicing at this news taking place at the TransDev depot that runs the X43 Lancashire Witch service to Manchester...

They might be getting annoyed that their buses will be at least 18 months old when the rail service starts, rather than brand new as they would have been had the trains started running last December as we were originally told. Still they have a frequent service, cheap fares, decent legroom and free Wi-Fi. I'm not convinced many of their passengers will switch to the train, off-peak at least.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Good point. Similarly if it's already in use at the Todmorden end for reversing terminating services then surely that means the only signal there could be a problem with would be the (feathered?) one leaving the Copy Pit line onto the curve in a southbound direction I've only done the line once each way since the Holme Tunnel works and was sat on the wrong side passing to check: it will be a while before I'm next out that way (the end of the month) but I'll have a look when I next pass.

Edit - Ah, apparently that is the problem! Out of interest how long would that take to rectify? Does it require long-planned / widespread work to implement?

A good question when that stretch of line was closed for five months earlier this year with the Holme Tunnel work.

 

[DarloRich]

I notice that despite all the heads must roll bluster the simple fact that even IF the line was ready for use now no trains are going to run. Why? northern have no spare trains to run a service.

Why spend money on something (and the associated upkeep costs) now when it wont be used for some time?

I will ask all involved - where where should Northern extract extra stock to run this service?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

From December when juicing via St Helens Junction goes live and the 319s take over I thought was the plan. Only needs one or two units.

 

[DarloRich]

From December when juicing via St Helens Junction goes live and the 319s take over I thought was the plan. Only needs one or two units.

they only get one back though dont they? Aren't the others used for capacity enhancement elsewhere?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

they only get one back though dont they? Aren't the others used for capacity enhancement elsewhere?

I don't know that much. Personally I think it's just easier if we blame the evil capitalist bourgeois DfT for suppressing the North, it's what everyone else seems to do

Edit - looking at the current situation with the 26 min turnaround at Toddy it may actually be possible, but very tight, to do it with one extra unit.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't know that much. Personally I think it's just easier if we blame the evil capitalist bourgeois DfT for suppressing the North, it's what everyone else seems to do

Oh i agree - Much easier!

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I notice that despite all the heads must roll bluster the simple fact that even IF the line was ready for use now no trains are going to run. Why? northern have no spare trains to run a service.

Why spend money on something (and the associated upkeep costs) now when it wont be used for some time?

I will ask all involved - where where should Northern extract extra stock to run this service?

I agree that a lot of this appears to be blustering by local politicians. There's an even more fundamental reason why there's no service than the lack of trains - A LACK OF MONEY. As Northern's MD said a couple of months back.

.... Mr Hynes said "Lancashire County Council pressed Network Rail to build a curve and we are in discussions with LCC to operate the service. But actually we don't have a contract yet and until we have a contract we can't operate the service. As soon as LCC and Northern reach agreement we can make plans to operate the service."

It does actually appear from today's local press article that Lancashire and Northern have agreed a contract

The delay has been revealed as Lancashire County Council leader Coun Jennifer Mein had approved proposals to sponsor the new route for the first three years of its operation.A Department for Transport spokesman said: “The Todmorden Curve scheme is being managed by Lancashire County Council, .....

The sting is in the DfTs comment, LCC are the project managers. It is totally inconceivable to me that they've paid Network rail £8m for the Curve, yet are totally unaware the signalling is incomplete.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I will ask all involved - where where should Northern extract extra stock to run this service?

Perhaps I can repeat a question here that I posted this morning on the Diagrams board in response to Chris?

It's very rare for a pacer to be on the Calder Valley now, although the 1723 from Leeds has a 142 tagged on to a 158 for strengthening

I haven't travelled that frequently since May, but have noticed that Pacers seem to have disappeared from service on the Calder Valley lines even on the Brighouse route and the the later services from Leeds where they were common.

So where have these extra Sprinters come from? And where have the Pacers gone? I haven't seen any howls of protest from people complaining that Pacers have replaced Sprinters elsewhere.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Having now checked it does seem to me like it only needs one extra unit. Roughly:

Todmorden 	xx30 / xx31
Burnley Mcr Rd	xx51 / xx52
Accrington	xx59 / xy00
Blackburn	xy10

Blackburn	xy16
Accrington	xy24 / xy25
Burnley Mcr Rd	xy33 / xy34
Todmorden	xy54 / xy56

The terminators currently arrive at xx30 and depart at xx56

I'm not sure how this will work in reality however: I'm certain Rose Grove was also meant to be a calling point, and I'm not sure it was meant to be all stations Todmordern-Man Vic.

 

[Geeves]

I think May 2015 seems about right for the Burnley work. As has been said there are no trains, there is/was no money on the table to run the service (down to LCC), the signals were only finished on the Manchester - Leeds section after they had to have an extra week of buses to get it working at Preston powerbox oh and finally not one single member of traincrew from Wigan or Victoria signs the route beyond Todd... still.

Ill also say May for the introduction of various 319s to release enough stock so they can have something to play with to learn the route, one train per hour that way its going to take a while...

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Having now checked it does seem to me like it only needs one extra unit. Roughly:

Todmorden 	xx30 / xx31
Burnley Mcr Rd	xx51 / xx52
Accrington	xx59 / xy00
Blackburn	xy10

Blackburn	xy16
Accrington	xy24 / xy25
Burnley Mcr Rd	xy33 / xy34
Todmorden	xy54 / xy56

The terminators currently arrive at xx30 and depart at xx56

I'm not sure how this will work in reality however: I'm certain Rose Grove was also meant to be a calling point, and I'm not sure it was meant to be all stations Todmordern-Man Vic.

That seems a little slow, the current journey time from Blackburn to Stansfield Hall is 32mins, so I'd say arrival/departure from Blackburn would be nearer 05/20.

I really don't think there will be any change in the current stopping pattern between Tod and Victoria (all stations except Moston and Walsden) - I can't see the Bradford trains stopping at the local stations again now they have all been speeded up, or for there to be enough trainsets (or demand) for a 5tph service from Tod to Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They might be getting annoyed that their buses will be at least 18 months old when the rail service starts, rather than brand new as they would have been had the trains started running last December as we were originally told. Still they have a frequent service, cheap fares, decent legroom and free Wi-Fi. I'm not convinced many of their passengers will switch to the train, off-peak at least.

Indeed, this will pose a problem for those needing to decide which mode of travel....

There again, has anything been officially said as yet about the type (and age) of the DMU that will run the train service, as noting what you say above about the age of the buses, the same extra 18 month period will so apply to the age of the DMU.

 

[thealexweb]

Does this mean Bolton can make use of both of the 'spare' DMUs that the 319s are displacing from December?