Bury and Altrincham Lines pre-Metrolink

[Polo Mint]

Hello,

I have a few questions about the Bury and railway lines prior to them being converted into the Metrolink tram operation.

1. Which types of trains used to operate these services? Wasn't the Bury line already electrified so it must have used some kind of EMU? Did Altrincham use Pacers?

2. What were the frequency of these services? I assume they must have operated around every 20 minutes-ish?

3. Does anyone know which of the current Metrolink stops were previously railway stations and if any former railway stations were closed and not converted to Metrolink stops?

4. Did any trains on the Bury line run north to Rawtenstall prior to conversion in 1991?

If anyone can answer the questions or direct me to somewhere containing these answers then it would be appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

You're in luck, as I bought a 1987 timetable about 10 years ago, and I've got it to hand. I'll edit this post shortly.

That said, I am sure there are many people on this forum who will be able to give comprehensive replies from memory.

1. Which types of trains used to operate these services? Wasn't the Bury line already electrified so it must have used some kind of EMU? Did Altrincham use Pacers?

Class 504 EMUs on the Bury line, see this video, and there's also a cab ride highlights video here.

2. What were the frequency of these services? I assume they must have operated around every 20 minutes-ish?

Manchester-Bury was table 94. Off-peak Monday-Saturday was every 15 mins, departing Man Vic and Bury at xx00, xx15, xx30, xx45 with a journey time of 23mins both ways.

Altrincham-Manchester was in table 81. Stopping services were every 15mins, with a journey time of 22 minutes to Oxford Road. There was an hourly fast (ex-Chester) which took 14 minutes, calling intermediately at Sale only.

3. Does anyone know which of the current Metrolink stops were previously railway stations and if any former railway stations were closed and not converted to Metrolink stops?

1987 timetable lists the following on the Altrincham line:

• Altrincham
• Navigation Road
• Timperley
• Brooklands
• Sale
• Dane Road
• Stretford
• Warwick Rd for Old Trafford
• Old Trafford
• Deansgate
• Manchester Oxford Road
  (with some trains continuing to Hazel Grove, Alderley Edge or Crewe)

And on the Bury line:

• Manchester Victoria
• Woodlands Road
• Crumpsall
• Bowker Vale
• Heaton Park
• Prestwich
• Besses-o'-th'-Barn
• Whitefield
• Radcliffe
• Bury

I'm sure someone else can give more detailed info. Some may have been renamed or re-sited.

4. Did any trains on the Bury line run north to Rawtenstall prior to conversion in 1991?

It appears that services to Rawtenstall ceased in June 1972.

 

[Whistler40145]

Hi there I'll try to answer some of your questions.

Question 1

The Bury line was operated by Class 504 EMUs, running off 3rd rail, the Altrincham service was operated by Class 304/305 25kV EMUs, normally this service started at Crewe and ran via Deansgate and Old Trafford. The line from Stockport to Altrincham wasn't heavily used during this period, majority of this line was freight only.

I can't answer question 2 or 3, but quite sure some kind person will be along to give their answer.

Question 4

No, services terminated at the current Bury Interchange, a connection exists onto the East Lancashire Railway, but not used for service trains.

Hope this helps

 

[rick9525]

Class 304's with a couple of class 303's ran to Altrincham and 3rd rail class 504's ran to Bury.

As far as I remember Altrincham trains rain every 15 mins Mon/Sat not sure about Sundays and evenings ( half went Crewe via Stockport and half went Wilmslow or Alderley Edge via Style with some extended to Crewe) and I think Bury trains were every 20 mins but nothing to Bury on a Sunday.

All the stations on each line were converted I think. Woodlands Road for Old Trafford was renamed Old Trafford and Old Trafford was renamed Trafford Bar.

Certainly no electric trains could run past Bury. I am unsure when through trains stopped before that.

 

[Hornet]

This might be of help. Navigation Road and Altrincham not included as they are still National Rail Stations (Navigation Road has one Platform for National Rail Services).

 

[CyrusWuff]

Hello,

I have a few questions about the Bury and railway lines prior to them being converted into the Metrolink tram operation.

3. Does anyone know which of the current Metrolink stops were previously railway stations and if any former railway stations were closed and not converted to Metrolink stops?

On the Bury line, it was a like for like replacement, though with the opening of the new depot at Queens Road and new stops at Queens Road and Abraham Moss, Woodlands Road closed for good in December 2013.

Much the same situation applies on the Altrincham line, though Old Trafford Metrolink stop is slightly South of the location of the former Warwick Road station, and the former BR Old Trafford station was renamed Trafford Bar on conversion. There's also a completely new stop at Cornbrook, providing an interchange between the Eccles line and the Altrincham, Manchester Airport and East Didsbury lines.

4. Did any trains on the Bury line run north to Rawtenstall prior to conversion in 1991?

Bury - Rawtenstall closed to passengers in 1972, and for good in 1981. It was reopened by the ELR in 1987.

 

[kermit]

Lots of info for you here from the Altrincham Electric Railway Pres Soc

http://altrinchamelectric.org.uk/photo_gallery/index.html

 

[fergusjbend]

Thanks to Yorkie for the fascinating video! I grew up in Manchester and remember the anomalous 3rd rail Bury line very well, and the 25kV Altrincham line. I have lived in the south-east for the last 40 years, and I am struck by the marked cultural differences towards railways.

In the north, most people worked close to their homes, and used the bus to get to the relatively short distance to work. In the south east, vast numbers of people have been commuting 30 to 50 miles return a day for most of the twentieth century, and must necessarily use the train. Not so outside London. I would guess that many commuters from Bury and Prestwich would have chosen the bus rather than the train.

Obviously things have changed in the last few years, which no doubt accounts for the terrible crowding on Northern and TPE services, but I suspect the cultural bias persists. My mother lived in Swinton for 65 years and never used a train to go to Manchester. In her old age she came to live near me in Kent, but always insisted on using the bus, rather than the train to go on shopping trips to Canterbury, even though the train was much more convenient.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All the stations on each line were converted I think. Woodlands Road for Old Trafford was renamed Old Trafford and Old Trafford was renamed Trafford Bar.

I think you meant to say Warwick Road for Old Trafford on the Manchester to Altrincham line.

Woodlands Road (now closed) was situated between the new Metrolink stations of Queens Road and Abraham Moss on the Manchester to Bury Line.

 

[Springs Branch]

........ I suspect the cultural bias persists. My mother lived in Swinton for 65 years and never used a train to go to Manchester. In her old age she came to live near me in Kent, but always insisted on using the bus, rather than the train ....

I've long had a similar suspicion - glad I'm not the only one! Where I grew up in the north-west (in a shoe box in t' middle o' t' road), my family had a choice of bus or train for local trips into Bolton, Wigan or Manchester. My parents and grandparents always used the bus, never the train.

There seemed to be a preception that the train was "too dear", even though Off-Peak Day Returns on BR were actually cheaper than two adult bus tickets. The railway was reserved for once-a-year day-trips to Southport or Blackpool, which presumably one had to save up for.
I think there was a feeling (unspoken, of course) that I was getting a bit above myself when I started using local trains regularly as a late teenager - although my main motivations here were that the last train ran half-an-hour later than the last bus, and there was minimal chance of a fight breaking out on the last train, which was not guaranteed on the last bus on Saturday night.

Another influence on top of the "only posh people use trains" culture was that, in the days before PTEs started seriously supporting rail services in the 1970s, some local trains in urban areas could be infrequent & sporadic and did not run to a clock-face pattern. For example, the Manchester/Glossop/Hadfield EMUs only ran hourly during the day, and I think the Atherton line had no stopping trains at all in the mid-day off-peak for many years (even though the stations were still staffed by a man not selling tickets for trains which did not stop). This might also have contributed to why your mother never took a train from Swinton.

Anyhow, back on topic ...

• The Wikipedia article on the Altrincham line has a quite comprehensive story of the line, which has been electrifed on three different systems over its lifetime.
  
  
• Has anyone mentioned that the Bury Line was electrified using a unique 1200V DC side-contact third-rail system, rather the conventional 650-750V DC top-contact rail?

 

[ianhr]

[*]Has anyone mentioned that the Bury Line was electrified using a unique 1200V DC side-contact third-rail system, rather the conventional 650-750V DC top-contact rail?[/list]

This was the maximum voltage for third-rail supply peremitted by the Board of Trade at the time (just prior to WW1) and protection of the conductor rail by wooden shuttering was also a requirement not needed on 600V DC lines around Liverpool and on the LSWR.

The original L&YR all steel EMU stock was very advanced for it's time, generally considered the best suburban EMUs ever to run in the British Isles, they lasted until the 1950s.

Remember there was also an extension of the Bury electrification along the Holcombe Brook branch, which initially used OHLE, financed by Dick Kerr as a pilot scheme for a contract that they had secured in Brazil.

 

[deltic]

Hello,

I have a few questions about the Bury and railway lines prior to them being converted into the Metrolink tram operation.

1. Which types of trains used to operate these services? Wasn't the Bury line already electrified so it must have used some kind of EMU? Did Altrincham use Pacers?

2. What were the frequency of these services? I assume they must have operated around every 20 minutes-ish?

3. Does anyone know which of the current Metrolink stops were previously railway stations and if any former railway stations were closed and not converted to Metrolink stops?

4. Did any trains on the Bury line run north to Rawtenstall prior to conversion in 1991?

If anyone can answer the questions or direct me to somewhere containing these answers then it would be appreciated.

Thank you.

With regard to Q2 - services on the Altrincham line these ran every 10 minutes in the peak - 15 minutes off peak and 30 mins in the evening and on Sundays but only in the afternoon.

When services first went 25Kv 1 train an hour went on to Crewe via Stockport, 1 train an hour to Alderley Edge via Stockport and 2 trains an hour via Styal to Alderley Edge. In later years this clockface service went a bit haywire.

All the stations on the Altrincham line were converted to metrolink stops.

There was also an hourly service from Oxford Rd to Chester which called at Sale and Altrincham - in the peaks additional trains ran on this route calling at other stations in a fairly random manner such as Brooklands - all run by first generation DMUs

I only recall one loco hauled passenger train on the line which was a football special for a Altrincham FA Cup tie

 

[Ash Bridge]

With regard to Q2 - services on the Altrincham line these ran every 10 minutes in the peak - 15 minutes off peak and 30 mins in the evening and on Sundays but only in the afternoon.

When services first went 25Kv 1 train an hour went on to Crewe via Stockport, 1 train an hour to Alderley Edge via Stockport and 2 trains an hour via Styal to Alderley Edge. In later years this clockface service went a bit haywire.

All the stations on the Altrincham line were converted to metrolink stops.

There was also an hourly service from Oxford Rd to Chester which called at Sale and Altrincham - in the peaks additional trains ran on this route calling at other stations in a fairly random manner such as Brooklands - all run by first generation DMUs

I only recall one loco hauled passenger train on the line which was a football special for a Altrincham FA Cup tie

I have a vague recollection of some electric loco (class 85/86) passenger shuttle workings between Altrincham and Manchester not too many years before conversion to Mertrolink, can't recall what the event was though.

 

[northwichcat]

Class 304's with a couple of class 303's ran to Altrincham and 3rd rail class 504's ran to Bury.

As far as I remember Altrincham trains rain every 15 mins Mon/Sat not sure about Sundays and evenings ( half went Crewe via Stockport and half went Wilmslow or Alderley Edge via Style with some extended to Crewe) and I think Bury trains were every 20 mins but nothing to Bury on a Sunday.

With Altrincham there were also the express services that continued to Chester which yorkie mentioned. These were operated by 108s and 150s.

 

[Howardh]

Must add the glory days of the branch line from Bury to Holcombe Brook, no more than 4 miles single track and fully electrified (overhead to start then third rail (???)) until it became too expensive to maintain so they used diesels instead.

Wonder if anyone here is, ahem, old enough to remember using it?!!

 

[30907]

Class 304's with a couple of class 303's ran to Altrincham and 3rd rail class 504's ran to Bury.

Not 303s, they were Clydeside. Prior to that the Altrincham line was dc overhead electrified, IIRC cut back to Oxford Road from London Road MSJA platforms around 1960.

Bury originally ran to Bolton Street. Though trains further north ran via Clifton Jn and finished in the 60s, leaving Rawtenstall as a shuttle.

I think everything important has been said already.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Not 303s, they were Clydeside. Prior to that the Altrincham line was dc overhead electrified, IIRC cut back to Oxford Road from London Road MSJA platforms around 1960.

Bury originally ran to Bolton Street. Though trains further north ran via Clifton Jn and finished in the 60s, leaving Rawtenstall as a shuttle.

I think everything important has been said already.

303's did actually work to Altrincham when they were transferred south to the Manchester area in their latter years, late 80's/early 90's.

 

[northwichcat]

• Warwick Rd for Old Trafford
• Old Trafford

I'm sure someone else can give more detailed info. Some may have been renamed or re-sited.

Warwick Road is now called Old Trafford.

Old Trafford is now called Trafford Bar.

On Match days you could get 4 cars on Chester services making additional calls at Warwick Rd and 8 cars on all stop electric services.

 

[Polo Mint]

Thank you for your responses. I didn't realise trains would be so frequent on those lines.

I thought many of the stations would have been built for the Metrolink service, but it appears as though nearly all of existed when the train was operating. I assume most trains (except the fast train to Chester) stopped at all stops?

It is a shame these lines were converted into the metrolink, as it disadvantages people living outside of the city. People travelling to Chester must travel all the way through Stockport, whilst Rossendale has no rail service at all, but could have if a train operated the service.

That class 504 is a complete shed, worse than a Pacer! It must have been very old, even in them days. Is it wearing a GMPTE livery? I assume the driver in the video, and all the others, transferred to the Metrolink company?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Not 303s, they were Clydeside. Prior to that the Altrincham line was dc overhead electrified, IIRC cut back to Oxford Road from London Road MSJA platforms around 1960.

Bury originally ran to Bolton Street. Though trains further north ran via Clifton Jn and finished in the 60s, leaving Rawtenstall as a shuttle.

I think everything important has been said already.

Thank you for your responses. I didn't realise trains would be so frequent on those lines.

I thought many of the stations would have been built for the Metrolink service, but it appears as though nearly all of existed when the train was operating. I assume most trains (except the fast train to Chester) stopped at all stops?

It is a shame these lines were converted into the metrolink, as it disadvantages people living outside of the city. People travelling to Chester must travel all the way through Stockport, whilst Rossendale has no rail service at all, but could have if a train operated the service.

That class 504 is a complete shed, worse than a Pacer! It must have been very old, even in them days. Is it wearing a GMPTE livery? I assume the driver in the video, and all the others, transferred to the Metrolink company?

I always thought of them as a 3rd rail 304, by the time they wore that livery they would be well past their sell by date, I can't imagine that most train drivers would down grade to tram driving (no offence to tram drivers btw) they would just transfer to other heavy rail services.

 

[Whistler40145]

IIRC wasn't the line between the then Manchester London Road to Altrincham at one time 1500v DC, so during this period, was the service operated as two separate services?

 

[northwichcat]

I didn't realise trains would be so frequent on those lines.

yorkie refers to have seen the 1987 timetable (very soon before the Metrolink conversion happened.) I've seen an older timetable (can't remember the exact date) where in the morning peak the number of services Altrincham and Sale had were slightly higher than the number of Metrolink services they currently get, so any talk of Metrolink being able to manage a higher frequency than heavy rail on that line is incorrect.

It is a shame these lines were converted into the metrolink, as it disadvantages people living outside of the city. People travelling to Chester must travel all the way through Stockport, whilst Rossendale has no rail service at all, but could have if a train operated the service.

Metrolink phase 1 was really a low cost alternative to a Picc-Vic tunnel or the Ordsall Chord. Now it turns out the Ordsall Chord is seen as imperative to be able to improve heavy rail services in the Manchester area.

 

[Ash Bridge]

IIRC wasn't the line between the then Manchester London Road to Altrincham at one time 1500v DC, so during this period, was the service operated as two separate services?

Yes, 304's from Crewe etc. terminated at Oxford Rd. DC units operated between Oxford Rd and Altrincham.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Commuted in for a week from Sale in early 1979 - to central Manchester. Trains were very poorly used off peak and had a high degree of vandalism - slashed seats etc - much like the Watford DC in that era.

 

[Whistler40145]

Cheers Ash Bridge

 

[deltic]

yorkie refers to have seen the 1987 timetable (very soon before the Metrolink conversion happened.) I've seen an older timetable (can't remember the exact date) where in the number of services Altrincham and Sale had were slightly higher than the number of Metrolink services they currently get, so any talk of Metrolink being able to manage a higher frequency than heavy rail on that line is incorrect.


.

As always it depends on far back you go - when the Altrincham line was 1500V service frequencies in the peak were higher - so in the mid 1960s electric trains stopping at all stations left at 7.20, 7.40, 7.50, 08.00, 08.05, 08.10, 08.15, 08.23, 08.28, 08.38, 08.51, 08.58, 09.20 then every 20 mins. The peak services were all 6 cars and then 3 cars in the off-peak. There were also the Cheshire trains running into Manchester Central - in the peaks they would stop at anyone of Timperly, Brooklands, Sale and Stretford - in the off peak they stopped at Sale.

In the late 40s early 50s part of the route was 4 track which allowed a far more intensive service and overtaking so morning peak trains from Altrincham at 07.15, 07.25, 07.35, 07.45, 07.49, 07.54, 07.58 (ex Chester), 08.00, 08.01 starting at Sale, 08.07, 08.15, 08.19, 08.24, 08.30, 08.33 (ex Hartford), 08.36, 08.40 starting at Sale, 08.43, 08.48, 08.58, 09.03, 09.10, 09.20 then every 20 minutes. Many of the peak trains did not call at all stations.

When the line was converted to 25KvAC services were run by 4 car 304 units all day - these lost one of their cars in later years.

The difference between then and now was that the line was a very busy commuter line but dead during the day and evening, by the 1980s when I lived on the route outside the peaks many stations were very quiet - Dane Road, Warwick Road, Old Trafford, Knott Mill (as it then was - now Deansgate) would see a couple of people per train whereas now the line and stops are reasonably busy all day.

 

[yorksrob]

That class 504 is a complete shed, worse than a Pacer! It must have been very old, even in them days. Is it wearing a GMPTE livery? I assume the driver in the video, and all the others, transferred to the Metrolink company?

I bet the seats were a darn sight more comfortable than a pacer !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Class 504 EMUs on the Bury line, see this video, and there's also a cab ride highlights video here.

I had no idea that Scott from Neighbours drove a train in Manchester

 

[Ash Bridge]

I bet the seats were a darn sight more comfortable than a pacer !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I had no idea that Scott from Neighbours drove a train in Manchester

I'll bet Scott's driving Pacers for Northern these days

 

[yorksrob]

I'll bet Scott's driving Pacers for Northern these days

Well, as they say, "Any dream will do"

 

[30907]

303's did actually work to Altrincham when they were transferred south to the Manchester area in their latter years, late 80's/early 90's.

Apologies, missed that. My pathetic excuse is I was living in Epping Forest (District, though I think my garden included a bit of it....) at the time.