• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Glasgow Queen Street refurbishment and remodelling

Status
Not open for further replies.

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
Would the gradients out of Queen Street make a tunnel very difficult? To get from at least two levels beneath Queen Street to surface in the Cowlairs area it would have to be steeper than the already steep existing tunnel. If it surfaced north of Cowlairs then Maryhill trains would have to remain in the existing station which would be wasteful when trains from the south would be terminating in the new tunnel.

I'm not an engineer but the Scottish Govt's Strategic Rail Review suggests it's feasible to build a tunnel which Maryhill services could use: http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2003/03/16875/20704

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2003/03/16875/20814#t2
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Would the gradients out of Queen Street make a tunnel very difficult? To get from at least two levels beneath Queen Street to surface in the Cowlairs area it would have to be steeper than the already steep existing tunnel. If it surfaced north of Cowlairs then Maryhill trains would have to remain in the existing station which would be wasteful when trains from the south would be terminating in the new tunnel.

I don't think the problem is going to be gradients. Modern electric stock can work pretty steep gradients.

Basically though the main point to bear in mind is that it will not be possible to use the existing Cowlairs tunnel in any cross city scheme. The station throat at Queen St is too tight and you couldn't get down under George Square quickly enough there, gradients would be a problem.

So any cross city tunnel will need a new portal in north Glasgow.

I can see about 5 different options:

  1. Just to the south of the Cowlairs south curve, east of the existing E-G track.
  2. Just to the north of the Cowlairs south curve between the existing E-G track and the Network Rail maintenance depot.
  3. Somewhere around the Eastfields depot area.
  4. Somewhere around Barnhill / Railcare Springburn with access to both the Cumbernauld and Springburn (for E-G) lines
  5. Somewhere around Bellgrove with access to the E-G line being via Springburn.

If you were looking at a pure single station cross city line then Option 1 is probably the best and would allow access to Cumbernauld, Maryhill and Croy services.

Option 2 would lose access to Cumbernauld, Option 3 would lose access to Maryhill & Cumbernauld and Options 4/5 would have a journey time penalty compared to options 1-3.

If you were building more of a Metro style system with 3-4 underground stations then the other options might have other advantages and if a future High Speed Rail station were located at Bellgrove then there would be a logic to serving that location.

One thing all versions would likely have in common would be that they are only likely to serve one out of Central or Queen St (almost certainly Central). The 2 stations are just too close together to justify 2 new underground stations and the interchange benefits of serving Central would be significantly better than those at Queen Street.
 

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
I don't think the problem is going to be gradients. Modern electric stock can work pretty steep gradients.

Basically though the main point to bear in mind is that it will not be possible to use the existing Cowlairs tunnel in any cross city scheme. The station throat at Queen St is too tight and you couldn't get down under George Square quickly enough there, gradients would be a problem.

So any cross city tunnel will need a new portal in north Glasgow.

I can see about 5 different options:

  1. Just to the south of the Cowlairs south curve, east of the existing E-G track.
  2. Just to the north of the Cowlairs south curve between the existing E-G track and the Network Rail maintenance depot.
  3. Somewhere around the Eastfields depot area.
  4. Somewhere around Barnhill / Railcare Springburn with access to both the Cumbernauld and Springburn (for E-G) lines
  5. Somewhere around Bellgrove with access to the E-G line being via Springburn.

If you were looking at a pure single station cross city line then Option 1 is probably the best and would allow access to Cumbernauld, Maryhill and Croy services.

Option 2 would lose access to Cumbernauld, Option 3 would lose access to Maryhill & Cumbernauld and Options 4/5 would have a journey time penalty compared to options 1-3.

If you were building more of a Metro style system with 3-4 underground stations then the other options might have other advantages and if a future High Speed Rail station were located at Bellgrove then there would be a logic to serving that location.

One thing all versions would likely have in common would be that they are only likely to serve one out of Central or Queen St (almost certainly Central). The 2 stations are just too close together to justify 2 new underground stations and the interchange benefits of serving Central would be significantly better than those at Queen Street.


My preferred solution for Glasgow's future rail development would be your option 1 in combination with:-

HSR terminus at Central - unbeatable for onward connectivity.

GARL - must be a heavy rail solution and if it's feasible to somehow route it via Renfrew, even better.

City Union line upgrade (without St John's curve) - connects airport to Airdrie-Bathgate line*; facilitates a new orbital route (see below); and helps regeneration of Tradeston, Laurieston and Gorbals.

An orbital suburban route serving the new mega hospital at Govan (10,000 employees plus however many visitors) comprising: Maryhill line; Sprinburn to Bellgrove; City Union line; Paisley line; new section/tunnel between Cardonald and Jordanhill; Jordanhill to Maryhill. As an alternative to* above and if capacity could be created between Hyndland and Partick you could route some airport services via Airdrie-Bathgate line allowing airport passengers to connect with Queen Street's long distance services and providing the hospital with a direct link to the city centre and on to Edinburgh.

I think this covers just about all bases without venturing into the realms of fantasy.
 
Last edited:

Railsigns

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2010
Messages
2,514
Any new diagram plan of new Anniesland track layout yet?

It will simply be a new facing crossover on the Singer lines, north of Anniesland station and a new single track connecting line between the Up Singer line and the Maryhill - Anniesland branch, of sufficient length to hold a six-car train.
 

Carntyne

Member
Joined
8 Jul 2015
Messages
889

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
I thought they perhaps would be. You can see my predictions above. There's simply not enough room to divert everything through Queen Street LL, even with the double track. The pattern I suggested works quite nicely to consolidate the necessary services into just two trains per hour in each direction through the busy Partick Interchange. (I see that Stirling isn't mentioned, but could the Stirling locals run the other way around?).

Whilst capacity in GLC is restricted, an extra 1-2tph isn't an impossible ask. As I've said above, the slower runs to Dundee/Arbroath could be sacrificed for a few months and integrated into strengthened Aberdeen runs to minimise disruption at GLC.

So that'll be some more rare track for bashers (namely Coatbridge Central - Kirkwood, which is ordinarily ECS and freight only), and the opportunity to regularly see 170s in Central.
 
Last edited:

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,962
Rare track will be:-
Langloan Jn to Coatbridge (Central) Jn
Cowlairs East Jn to Cowlairs North Jn
Sighthill West Jn to Cowlairs West Jn
Anniesland Chord

I think you will find the Alloa and Dunblane trains will be the same as the Glasgow to Edinburgh services and also run anti-clockwise as discussed on this board.
 

marks87

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2010
Messages
1,609
Location
Dundee
Whilst capacity in GLC is restricted, an extra 1-2tph isn't an impossible ask. As I've said above, the slower runs to Dundee/Arbroath could be sacrificed for a few months and integrated into strengthened Aberdeen runs to minimise disruption at GLC.
The problem is that the Aberdeen services will already be pushing 3.5hrs+ end-to-end because of the diversion to GLC. Adding extra stops could send that dangerously close to 4hrs.

The Dundee/Arbroath services could start/terminate at Stirling to maintain the links between intermediate stations. Anyone for Glasgow can then change onto an Alloa/Dunblane service that goes round the loop.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
Isn't Central Station running close to capacity? Presumably not as they plan to divert the QS high level trains there.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
Isn't Central Station running close to capacity? Presumably not as they plan to divert the QS high level trains there.

Close to capacity, yes. But there is still capacity. Particularly off-peak, as there aren't the extra rush-hour paths available (at least 2tph to EK that only run in the rush hour, for example, plus extras on the Cathcart Circle and Ayrshire routes IIRC). People do seem to forget that the line through Partick is even closer to capacity than Central is, and simply running trains through there isn't an endless solution.

It'll be tight, but I think it'll be manageable. Bear in mind it's only really 1tph additional (Aberdeen), plus an occasional Inverness run a few times a day. (Is there capacity/potential to join trains at Stirling and run combined Aberdeen/Inverness service to save paths if necessary?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem is that the Aberdeen services will already be pushing 3.5hrs+ end-to-end because of the diversion to GLC. Adding extra stops could send that dangerously close to 4hrs.

It's not that many extra stops. Occasional calls at Gleneagles, Invergowrie, Broughty Ferry, that sort of thing. It would probably be just one, maybe two per service. I don't think it'll be too off-putting or too long a journey. Speaking as someone who regularly used the route over the last year, I don't think the diversion will make the route too unattractive for the medium-term closure.

I would agree that a local Dundee-Stirling all shacks would be an attractive idea, though. Shame the North bay platforms (4&5?) aren't available to passenger services.
 
Last edited:

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
I would agree that a local Dundee-Stirling all shacks would be an attractive idea, though. Shame the North bay platforms (4&5?) aren't available to passenger services.

Are they now disconnected or still used for overnight stabling?

If used for stabling, what makes them unsuitable for passenger use? They are essentially part of platforms 3 & 6.
 

Railsigns

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2010
Messages
2,514
Are they now disconnected or still used for overnight stabling?

If used for stabling, what makes them unsuitable for passenger use? They are essentially part of platforms 3 & 6.

Infrastructure-wise they're just sidings which happen to have platform faces alongside them.

- There's a hand points connection between the two sidings
- There's no facing point lock on the exit trap points
- There are no main signals reading in or out
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Infrastructure-wise they're just sidings which happen to have platform faces alongside them.

- There's a hand points connection between the two sidings
- There's no facing point lock on the exit trap points
- There are no main signals reading in or out

So a little economy preventing a useful potential. I suppose it isn't possible to plan for everything though.

It's also a shame that there isn't a route from the Alloa line to Platform 5 - saying that Platform 5 is quite narrow. It would be good for an additional Stirling-Alloa shuttle service
 

Observer

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2014
Messages
711
So a little economy preventing a useful potential. I suppose it isn't possible to plan for everything though.

It's also a shame that there isn't a route from the Alloa line to Platform 5 - saying that Platform 5 is quite narrow. It would be good for an additional Stirling-Alloa shuttle service
Or if they ever make the line beyond Alloa suitable for passenger trains once Longannet closes, Stirling - Alloa - Dunfermline.
 

Bodiddly

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2013
Messages
648
The first set of points (the one on the single line from Kelvindale) is due to be laid in this weekend.

So more than likely the main crossover will be going in over the next few weeks? I wonder if there are any plans to use this new line for any services before the Queen St works?
 

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
I wonder if there are any plans to use this new line for any services before the Queen St works?

The last public comment I saw from NR (in May) was that they had yet to define how the new capacity would be used in future.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
The last public comment I saw from NR (in May) was that they had yet to define how the new capacity would be used in future.

The chord could be used to allow the Yoker line to be used as a diversionary route for West Highland Line services when the Singer route is blocked.
 

Carntyne

Member
Joined
8 Jul 2015
Messages
889
So more than likely the main crossover will be going in over the next few weeks? I wonder if there are any plans to use this new line for any services before the Queen St works?

Doubtful I think. Only one TT change until Cowlairs closes.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
The chord could be used to allow the Yoker line to be used as a diversionary route for West Highland Line services when the Singer route is blocked.

If they were to electrify it, you've got the potential to stable EMUs in Yoker depot too with quite a short ECS run to the upper level. Of course, since they're not putting wires up at the moment, that ain't going to happen!

However, with it being a gap in the network, I wonder if there's going to be wires going up some time soonish (after the works of course)?

Otherwise not much use for the chord after the works are done. Having said it, maintaining a direct link to Glasgow for five months of engineering works is a worthwhile investment methinks!
 
Last edited:

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,962
The chord could be used to allow the Yoker line to be used as a diversionary route for West Highland Line services when the Singer route is blocked.

Haven't they used this route in the past but operating through Queen Street Low Level instead?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top