Received a Pre-court Action but would like to contest it

[DaveNewcastle]

I would recommend paying the amount and then attempting to negotiate should you be able to prove both that your plans changed and that Oldfield Park did not have ticketing facilities.

Indeed you could attempt this.

But I would find it hard to make a persuasive argument, as it seems that you showed no attempt or intention to find or use any ticket-selling facilities that might have existed, and by promptly stepping straight back onto the same train again, what you actually demonstrated was an intention to resume travel without a ticket, regardless of what facilities were on offer.

But if you do attempt that negotiation, then I'd like to repeat an earlier remark in the context of that attempt; that is to point out that it is a 'negotiation', in which both parties try to find common and mutually agreed ground. It would not help that process if you raised your views of staff behaviour or your sense of resentment - a good negotiation is a constructive process.

Hope that helps.

 

[Miafey]

I'm wondering if the train guard/RPI actually said the words "I'm NOT a police officer" rather than claiming to actually be one. Perhaps the OP as a non-native speaker heard the words "police officer" whilst a badge was produced and made a reasonable assumption. When I was given PACE training we were told that when cautioning people it's good practice to tell them explicity that you're not a police officer, especially when there could be ambiguity.

No he said he was a police officer, and I trust I understood this part very clearly.

Could he be a plainclothes policeman?

 

[talltim]

Indeed you could attempt this.

But I would find it hard to make a persuasive argument, as it seems that you showed no attempt or intention to find or use any ticket-selling facilities that might have existed, and by promptly stepping straight back onto the same train again, what you actually demonstrated was an intention to resume travel without a ticket, regardless of what facilities were on offer.

But if you do attempt that negotiation, then I'd like to repeat an earlier remark in the context of that attempt; that is to point out that it is a 'negotiation', in which both parties try to find common and mutually agreed ground. It would not help that process if you raised your views of staff behaviour or your sense of resentment - a good negotiation is a constructive process.

Hope that helps.

Isn't asking the guard an attempt to find ticket-selling facilities? When he got on the train the guard was a ticket selling facility at the station.

 

[Miafey]

I can confirm that as of today (23 Oct 2015) there are no ticket machines at Oldfield Park station.

Like I said I was there before and to my knowledge there were not any. There still aren't.

 

[221129]

He gave me a caution when he got off the train with me when the train stopped at Keynsham. I have assumed therefore he is a police officer? I can't remember his exact words but I definately heard "caution".

So he didn't say he was a police officer you just assumed?

I've always understood that FGW Revenue was based at Reading Station based on what I have been told by RPIs etc.

In my view they have a slam dunk RoRA prosecution.

 

[talltim]

ignore

 

[Shempz]

Seems to me that if it is established there were no ticket facilities at Oldfield Park at the time (and it appears that has been confirmed now), then that should be the end of the issue and no settlement is due, apart from the actual train fare from Oldfield Park to Keynsham.

Surely it is irrelevant whether or not the OP looked for ticket facilities once disembarking the train if those facilities did not exist anyway. Their original contract to travel had completed per the terms of that contract, and they were making an entirely new journey which would entail a new contract to travel for which they were physically unable to purchase a ticket at the origin due to there being no facilities, and asking the guard was the first chance to purchase a ticket.

 

[talltim]

I assume that the opening times for the ticket office are 24 hour clock, i.e. the ticket office isn't open until 10:30 PM? Then as per Shempz post above.

 

[Miafey]

Indeed you could attempt this.

But I would find it hard to make a persuasive argument, as it seems that you showed no attempt or intention to find or use any ticket-selling facilities that might have existed, and by promptly stepping straight back onto the same train again, what you actually demonstrated was an intention to resume travel without a ticket, regardless of what facilities were on offer.

But if you do attempt that negotiation, then I'd like to repeat an earlier remark in the context of that attempt; that is to point out that it is a 'negotiation', in which both parties try to find common and mutually agreed ground. It would not help that process if you raised your views of staff behaviour or your sense of resentment - a good negotiation is a constructive process.

Hope that helps.

To my knowledge at that time (as I had been at that station before) there were no ticket machines at the station. However if I'm being utterly honest that was not the thing I thought over very carefully at that time. Because I've seen people aboard the train from oldfield park purchasing tickets on the train before and there were people doing so on that day I did not think it was a definite "nonono you can't do it" situation. Of course it is my misunderstanding, the train company was just being nice when they agreed to sell you a ticket on the train but it does not mean that it is legal to travel without a ticket. But I did not really have the time to think twice then.

Also the exact reason that I had to change my plan, was because a train was delayed. It was the failing of providing an punctual service of the railway company in the first place. Of course I know there are ways of claiming refund of ticket fare if I were a passenger on the train. I was not, but I was affected by the delay of the train.

Sorry but I'm not trying to argue with you. Just saying what I thought. Thank you for your suggestion and I will certainly leave the emotional side of it aside when responding to the letter. I understand that it would do me no good at all.

 

[221129]

Seems to me that if it is established there were no ticket facilities at Oldfield Park at the time (and it appears that has been confirmed now), then that should be the end of the issue and no settlement is due, apart from the actual train fare from Oldfield Park to Keynsham.

Surely it is irrelevant whether or not the OP looked for ticket facilities once disembarking the train if those facilities did not exist anyway. Their original contract to travel had completed per the terms of that contract, and they were making an entirely new journey which would entail a new contract to travel for which they were physically unable to purchase a ticket at the origin due to there being no facilities, and asking the guard was the first chance to purchase a ticket.

I disagree... It looks like an easy RoRA prosecution for them. Leaving behind a criminal record.

 

[talltim]

I disagree... It looks like an easy RoRA prosecution for them. Leaving behind a criminal record.

What for, not buying a ticket from non-existant ticket-selling facilities and then attempting to buy at the first opportunity, the guard?

 

[Miafey]

So he didn't say he was a police officer you just assumed?

I've always understood that FGW Revenue was based at Reading Station based on what I have been told by RPIs etc.

In my view they have a slam dunk RoRA prosecution.

He said he was a police officer and I think I understood this part well.

I was wondering whether he was acting as a plainclothes policeman who worked as a conductor on the train but when he found someone he thought was a fare dodger he then inform them he was a actually police officer.

 

[221129]

He said he was a police officer and I think I understood this part well.

I was wondering whether he was acting as a plainclothes policeman who worked as a conductor on the train but when he found someone he thought was a fare dodger he then inform them he was a actually police officer.

That doesn't match what you said earlier though... Something doesn't seem right here..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What for, not buying a ticket from non-existant ticket-selling facilities and then attempting to buy at the first opportunity, the guard?

Getting off the train and then back on straight away as DaveNewcastle says would be enough to demonstrate intent.

 

[talltim]

That doesn't match what you said earlier though... Something doesn't seem right here..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Getting off the train and then back on straight away as DaveNewcastle says would be enough to demonstrate intent.

Intent to do what tho? Buy a ticket at the first available opportunity?

 

[221129]

Intent to do what tho? Buy a ticket at the first available opportunity?

To travel without a valid ticket.

 

[talltim]

How can there be intent before an opportunity? Its the same as the thousands of people every day who travel from stations with no ticketing facilities.

 

[Miafey]

That doesn't match what you said earlier though... Something doesn't seem right here..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Getting off the train and then back on straight away as DaveNewcastle says would be enough to demonstrate intent.

Let me clarify:

1) I can't remember whether he was in uniform, but he does not have a green badge (which FGW conductors have with their names on) on his chest;
2) He had a ticket machine with him on that day and others purchased tickets from him, including the lady standing beside me who was purchasing her ticket while I asked for a ticket from oldfield park to Keynsham from him;
3) He looked at my ticket from bath spa to oldfield park, instead of issuing me a ticket as I asked, he asked why I only got a ticket for that part of my journey but decided to travel on, I explained that because when I purchased the ticket I was only intended to travel to oldfield park but now I had to travel to Keynsham
4) He asked for whether I have any ID with me, I then presented him with my driving licence. He asked me to write down my name, address and contact number on a notebook he took out from his pocket
5) He informed me that I was travelling with out a ticket, I said but I wanted to buy one, he said not until I asked, I said no I asked before you asked me, he said it is called over travelling (or something similar I can't remember the exact words, some term meaning I got a ticket for only part of my journey I believe)
6) I continued to explain, he interrupted me a couple of times, and then he told me he was actually a police officer, showed me the badge
7) I was shocked as never been talked to by a police officer before so went blank for a while, when I tried to explain again he said he would get off with me at Keynsham and to explain this
8) because the train was about to arrive in Keynsham, I did not say anything more because I thought he would get off the train at keynsham with me to listen to my explanation;
9) he got off the train with me, gave me a caution (he spoke very quickly when giving the caution)
10) he jumped on the train again and left

I'm positive that he said he was a police officer. I was then convinced that he was when he gave me a caution. I thought only police officers have the right to give caution? I might be wrong here but he did say he was a police officer and showed me a badge which is very different from just a name badge.

11) he called me about three weeks later on my mobile, accusing me of giving wrong information, asked me to confirm my name and address

12) about a week after the conversation I received the letter.

 

[talldave]

Well you have his mobile number, perhaps ask the real police to confirm he is a police officer? Impersonating a police officer is a serious offence - more serious than travelling one stop without a valid ticket I'd say.

 

[Miafey]

Well I suppose I could, but what good it would do to me I do not really have any hard evidence of him claiming himself a police officer. He said so but obviously I did not record our conversation. I was frightened at that time. Looking back I probably should not just hand someone my driving licence or leave someone with all my information when simply asked. I should have asked for his ID/name to at least check whether he had the right to do so. But all I thought of at that time was to explain it was not my intention to break the law and I wanted to buy a ticket. It did not come to me at that time that I should ask him to prove he was what he said he was. I was simply very scared.

 

[221129]

RPIs also carry a card a lot like a Police Officers Warrant Card.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Surely it is irrelevant whether or not the OP looked for ticket facilities once disembarking the train if those facilities did not exist anyway. Their original contract to travel had completed per the terms of that contract, and they were making an entirely new journey which would entail a new contract to travel for which they were physically unable to purchase a ticket at the origin due to there being no facilities, and asking the guard was the first chance to purchase a ticket.

What for, not buying a ticket from non-existant ticket-selling facilities and then attempting to buy at the first opportunity, the guard?

The rules are that you must buy all tickets for the journey you intend to make before boarding, where you board at a staffed railway station. Bath Spa is a staffed railway station.

The ticketing facilities at Oldfield Park are largely irrelevant because of this.

If the OP can demonstrate that his plans genuinely changed between Bath Spa and Oldfield Park he may be able to present this as mitigation.

 

[talltim]

But as he got off the train at Oldfield Park he also boarded it at Oldfield Park. You can't argue that the suspicion was created by getting off and boarding again and then say that he didn't board.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can't argue that the suspicion was created by getting off and boarding again and then say that he didn't board.

You must buy all tickets for your intended journey before you start your journey, where ticketing facilities are available. Briefly standing on a platform doesn't magically reset everything.

FGW believe that the intended journey was Bath to Keynsham, therefore the ticket should have been bought at Bath.

The OP can attempt to show that his intended journey was Bath to Oldfield Park, but his plans change, and FGW may or may not accept this. If the OP feels aggrieved he can let a court decide.

 

[Shempz]

The rules are that you must buy all tickets for the journey you intend to make before boarding, where you board at a staffed railway station. Bath Spa is a staffed railway station.

The ticketing facilities at Oldfield Park are largely irrelevant because of this.

If the OP can demonstrate that his plans genuinely changed between Bath Spa and Oldfield Park he may be able to present this as mitigation.

In this instance, the OP completed the journey to Oldfield Park. Disembarked the train. End of contract/journey.

There were no ticketing facilities at Oldfield Park, the OP got on the train to travel to Keynsham. Requested ticket from the guard (or whatever official capacity they were acting in for the TOC) at the first opportunity.

I fail to see what case there is to answer?

I'm certainly not even close to a legal expert - but surely under strict liability - on which the TOCs/ RoRA/Byelaws rely so heavily, there is no liability here.

 

[talltim]

You must buy all tickets for your intended journey before you start your journey, where ticketing facilities are available. Briefly standing on a platform doesn't magically reset everything.

FGW believe that the intended journey was Bath to Keynsham, therefore the ticket should have been bought at Bath.

The OP can attempt to show that his intended journey was Bath to Oldfield Park, but his plans change, and FGW may or may not accept this. If the OP feels aggrieved he can let a court decide.

How long do you have to stand on a platform to reset it?
I think in this case I would let a court decide it, but I'm not the OP

 

[Tetchytyke]

In this instance, the OP completed the journey to Oldfield Park. Disembarked the train. End of contract/journey.

Except he then immediately reboarded the same train to continue onwards to Keynsham. I don't think FGW are being unreasonable in believing this to be a continuation of a journey and therefore an attempt to avoid paying the fare due from Oldfield Park to Keynsham.

Of particular note is the fact that the OP has stated in his very first post that he actually lives in Keynsham. The single ticket from Bath to Keynsham is £2 more expensive than the single from Bath to Oldfield Park.

As I've said, I think the OP should explain the situation in writing, preferably with evidence showing that his plans were originally to meet at Oldfield Park and that they changed in the 2-3 minutes it took to travel from Bath to Oldfield Park.

As it stands, it looks to me like a slam-dunk case of short-faring.

 

[MikeWh]

The rules are that you must buy all tickets for the journey you intend to make before boarding, where you board at a staffed railway station. Bath Spa is a staffed railway station.

The ticketing facilities at Oldfield Park are largely irrelevant because of this.

If the OP can demonstrate that his plans genuinely changed between Bath Spa and Oldfield Park he may be able to present this as mitigation.

So what you are saying is that people are not allowed to change their mind mid way through a journey without having some cast iron proof of why they changed it. In my view the fact that Oldfield Park has no ticketing facilities is very relevant. People are allowed to change their mind. Had there been facilities there then they would have to have been used, but as there aren't GWR haven't really got a leg to stand on.

Oldfield Park is full of students. My son is currently one of them. I don't doubt that a lot of them do try it on. If what the OP says is true it appears that the RPI has jumped to the wrong conclusion. Obviously we weren't there and only have one side of the story, but I don't think it is right to be talking about certain RORA prosecutions.

 

[Miafey]

But as he got off the train at Oldfield Park he also boarded it at Oldfield Park. You can't argue that the suspicion was created by getting off and boarding again and then say that he didn't board.

If the suspicion you talked about is the suspicion of intention to travel without a ticket, then it is not disputed that there was a suspicion, or that my specific behavior that day created a suspicion. But being a suspicion and only a suspicion, while they surely have the evidence which could confirm their suspicion (my ticket), if I also have the evidence showing that it was not my intention, I should be able to clear my name?

However from what I gathered above, travelling without a ticket is a criminal offence regardless of whether you intended to do so. If that is the case then everyone boarding a train without a ticket is committing a crime. They are just lucky enough not to get caught.

On the other hand, some other replies suggested that if one has attempted to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity then that should be alright.

This is why I'm confused. Of course I could let it go to the court and ask the judge to decide but the reality is the court cost is nothing to the TOC but will be expensive to me. This is definitely the route I do not wish to go along if it is at all avoidable.

What I'm not sure about is how much weight will be given to "intention". If it is important then I may have a chance as it was genuinely what happened and I may get evidence from my friend. The tricky bit is the travel time between bath spa and oldfield park is only 2 mins and I'm not really sure whether the time stamp is within this 2 mins. It may well be that I did not notice the msg before I got the ticket because I got to the train station with only minutes to spare so I just had time to buy a ticket. But assuming that I could prove my travel plan changed, what I'm sure about is does it matter at all. If all that matters is whether I'm on the train with a valid ticket, and whether or not the train company would take my intention into consideration is entirely their discretion then it might not be a good idea to argue before the deadline offered. If however the "intention" is an element of the rule, even if the burden of proof is on me, then I think I might have a better chance.

Of course I may still pay the fine, but the above will, I think, affect how I proceed this matter further. If after me making all the efforts of writing down everything and gathering all the possible evidence, they will just spend 30 sec glancing the letter before binning it, then I shall probably just keep quiet. If however, this is something a train company usually give some weight to, then I will probably do it, even if it will not make any difference to the final result.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my view the fact that Oldfield Park has no ticketing facilities is very relevant. People are allowed to change their mind.

Obviously we weren't there and only have one side of the story, but I don't think it is right to be talking about certain RORA prosecutions.

The facts, as the OP has given them, are:

• He lives in Keynsham, not Oldfield Park
• He arranged to meet his friend in Oldfield Park
• He jumped up and got off the train when the ticket inspector came round
• He immediately reboarded the same train and walked away from the ticket inspector
• He says this happened because he saw his plans had changed in the few seconds immediately after getting off
• The fare from Bath to Oldfield Park is two quid less than the fare from Bath to Keynsham.

Intent is about how your behaviour appears to a reasonable observer.

I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, but I think FGW are justified in claiming he was attempting to avoid payment of the fare due because of where he lives. You yourself have said similar in the past when people "forget" to touch their Oyster card out when they're travelling outside their Travelcard zones at a station that is conveniently closer to where they live.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt, but if his plans changed his argument would be a lot more believable if he could prove it.

You are supposed to buy all tickets for the journey you are intending to make before boarding when at a staffed station. FGW think a man who lives in Keynsham was intending to travel to Keynsham. He can try and argue otherwise, but his argument will be a lot stronger if he can prove that he was originally intending to travel to Oldfield Park.

 

[talltim]

You are supposed to buy all tickets for the journey you are intending to make before boarding when at a staffed station. FGW think a man who lives in Keynsham was intending to travel to Keynsham. He can try and argue otherwise, but his argument will be a lot stronger if he can prove that he was originally intending to travel to Oldfield Park.

He did buy all the tickets for the journey he intended to make before boarding at a staffed station. He later decided to make another journey from a station where it was impossible to buy tickets.
You can't argue that you should buy all tickets for all future journeys that you don't yet know you want to make just because you happen to be a staffed station.
Where he lives is irrelevant. There are so many possible reason to travel to another station that is not your home station.