Any possibility of Carnforth station West Coast Mainline platforms re-opening?

[Mallone]

Hi all...does anybody know the current possibility of this?

 

[najaB]

Hi all...does anybody know the current possibility of this?

I'd estimate the chances as being somewhere between slim and none. Is there a untapped demand for services to stop there?

 

[TheGrew]

The Wikipedia Article suggests that it was looked at by Network rail in 2011 who cited lack of demand.
I doubt the number of people needing to go North would be enough to justify reopening. It already has direct connections to Morecombe, Lancaster and Barrow. I doubt anyone would be commuting to Carlisle and if they were I doubt the drive to Oxenholme would add much to their commute.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I'd estimate the chances as being somewhere between slim and none. Is there a untapped demand for services to stop there?

There's an action group with a professional-looking website, though it may well just be the work of one person. Perhaps the OP himself????

http://carnforthplatforms.org/

 

[RichmondCommu]

The WCML is a very fast route (by the UK's standards) and so adding another station to the route has the potential to slow things up. In which case the chances of re-opening the platforms at Carnforth would have to be very slim.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd estimate the chances as being somewhere between slim and none. Is there a untapped demand for services to stop there?

I would venture that there is more chance for Garstang and Catterall station being reopened complete with the Knott End Branch Line, which is currently NIL, than for the main line platforms at Carnforth ever seeing trains stop there in service provision.

 

[The Ham]

I'd estimate the chances as being somewhere between slim and none. Is there a untapped demand for services to stop there?

Given (according to wikipedia) the population is about 1/3 of that of Penrith but it has 2/5th the passenger numbers numbers (i.e. more passengers per 1000 population), I would be surprised if there was untapped demand.

If it were within an 70 minutes of London it may well be a different story, but it is not.

 

[Greenback]

I think that there would have to be a strong case for any reopening, with supporting evidence that there is a significant market that isn't being catered for by a change at Lancaster.

I'd be surprised if such a market existed, to be honest.

 

[simonw]

I think that there would have to be a strong case for any reopening, with supporting evidence that there is a significant market that isn't being catered for by a change at Lancaster.

I'd be surprised if such a market existed, to be honest.

Quite. A change at Lancaster is hardly a huge inconvenience, even if travelling from north of Carnforth.

 

[thenorthern]

I think its been discussed many times although its unlikely to happen at present. When more trains on the Windermere Branch Line used to run beyond Oxenholme Lake District there may have been a case although given very few do now its unlikely that stopping any of the Scottish trains at Carnforth could be justified.

 

[ac6000cw]

Given that it's only 8 miles from Lancaster (which is the natural railhead for the area) - no chance of re-opening I think (and there were good reasons for closing them in the first place).

 

[Iskra]

As a former resident it's never going to happen due to the small population and isn't worth slowing down faster services due to its proximity to Lancaster. To be honest Carnforth is probably punching above its weight in terms of service as it doesn't need direct services to Leeds and Manchester (even though they are nice to have). The only service improvement necessary in my experience would be for better links to Kendal and Windermere, but I don't think that is likely to happen either to be honest.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think its been discussed many times although its unlikely to happen at present. When more trains on the Windermere Branch Line used to run beyond Oxenholme Lake District there may have been a case although given very few do now its unlikely that stopping any of the Scottish trains at Carnforth could be justified.

I think that's the key issue. There's very little that currently runs along the main line at Carnforth that you'd want to stop there.

However, the other side to the argument - which no one so far has pointed out - is that there is a substantial commuter market from Carnforth (and a much bigger one at Lancaster) heading South, which is very poorly served by the 1tph at Carnforth, and by the very irregularly spaced out trains at Lancaster. The main road from Carnforth to Lancaster is also frequently very congested. As you imply, if the Windermere trains were extended to provide an additional hourly service down to Preston (and perhaps beyond) then they would be very good candidates to call at Carnforth - which would tap into that commuter market. (As a side-effect, it'd probably also increase passenger numbers to Windermere for day-trippers and tourists, since you'd be able to get there from many more destinations without changing)

 

[Iskra]

I think that's the key issue. There's very little that currently runs along the main line at Carnforth that you'd want to stop there.

However, the other side to the argument - which no one so far has pointed out - is that there is a substantial commuter market from Carnforth (and a much bigger one at Lancaster) heading South, which is very poorly served by the 1tph at Carnforth, and by the very irregularly spaced out trains at Lancaster. The main road from Carnforth to Lancaster is also frequently very congested. As you point out, if the Windermere trains were extended to provide an additional hourly service down to Preston (and perhaps beyond) then they would be very good candidates to call at Carnforth and tap into that commuter market. (As a side-effect, it'd probably also increase passenger numbers to Windermere for day-trippers and tourists, since you'd be able to get there from many more destinations without changing)

I'm not convinced that much of a commuter market exists. Apart from early morning or at night, any normal person would use the M6 rather than the A6 as it is substantially faster.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If it were within an 70 minutes of London it may well be a different story, but it is not.

Its worth pointing out that if it was that close to London it might well be on a four track route in which case you would not be holding up fast trains. And even if it wasn't i.e. south of the Thames the line speed on those routes is no more than 100 mph and with plenty of similar sized stations it would be much easier to fit in an additional stop.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Quite. A change at Lancaster is hardly a huge inconvenience, even if travelling from north of Carnforth.

Depends a bit. If the trains were frequent, then changing at Lancaster wouldn't be much of an inconvenience. But when Carnforth only has (roughly) 1tph, and some destinations from Lancaster don't have much more than that, changing at Lancaster could well involve quite a long wait.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If they ever did reopen, they'd need to be on loops really (to avoid slowing services that still won't call- which would still be the majority) which pushes the cost up significantly. I won't say there's absolutely zero chance, but it isn't much above that.

 

[edwin_m]

I think there was an idea a few years ago to build a connecting curve north of Carnforth from the line towards Skipton onto the WCML, so trains to and from the north could stop at the surviving platforms. This would also allow stopping trains to be overtaken, although the benefits of this might be small as overtaking can already take place at Lancaster. It would also be more expensive than reinstating the former WCML platforms.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If they ever did reopen, they'd need to be on loops really (to avoid slowing services that still won't call- which would still be the majority) which pushes the cost up significantly. I won't say there's absolutely zero chance, but it isn't much above that.

Would they? Presumably that depends on the timetable, and whether it's possible to avoid timetabling stopping trains immediately before fast trains.

I suspect a more pertinent problem if a stopping service was arranged by extending the Windermere trains (which seems the most plausible solution) would conflicting movements just south of Oxenholme.

I think there was an idea a few years ago to build a connecting curve north of Carnforth from the line towards Skipton onto the WCML, so trains to and from the north could stop at the surviving platforms. This would also allow stopping trains to be overtaken, although the benefits of this might be small as overtaking can already take place at Lancaster. It would also be more expensive than reinstating the former WCML platforms.

Southbound, overtaking at Lancaster is fine, as there are two Southbound platforms. Northbound, it's more problematic: Only 1 platform, so you can only overtake if the fast train isn't stopping. Since almost all trains do stop at Lancaster, that's a bit of an issue Having said that, perhaps a reasonable not-too-expensive solution would be building the curve you mention for Northbound services and overtaking at Lancaster for southbound services.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think its been discussed many times although its unlikely to happen at present. When more trains on the Windermere Branch Line used to run beyond Oxenholme Lake District there may have been a case although given very few do now its unlikely that stopping any of the Scottish trains at Carnforth could be justified.

There is surely no case for stopping the Scottish trains. As you say, it would be Windermere trains that could stop, if there were enough of them.
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Depends a bit. If the trains were frequent, then changing at Lancaster wouldn't be much of an inconvenience. But when Carnforth only has (roughly) 1tph, and some destinations from Lancaster don't have much more than that, changing at Lancaster could well involve quite a long wait.

I think that is the real case. And it is, or would not be, about passengers originating from Carnforth itself, but changing into northbound trains at Carnforth from the Barrow and Skipton lines. I'd imagine at least 50% of any untapped market would be from these lines. By saving 10 + 10 minutes by not going to Lancaster, it would make such journeys far more attractive.

 

[Mallone]

Carnforth has connections to lines to Morecambe, Barrow, Carlisle, Leeds and Windermere, Oxenholme only has connections to Windermere. Surely this makes Carnforth a better place for intercity trains to stop.

 

[al green]

I think there was an idea a few years ago to build a connecting curve north of Carnforth from the line towards Skipton onto the WCML, so trains to and from the north could stop at the surviving platforms. This would also allow stopping trains to be overtaken, although the benefits of this might be small as overtaking can already take place at Lancaster. It would also be more expensive than reinstating the former WCML platforms.

That curve used to exist. I think that reinstating it and electrifying it and the first bit of theSkipton line is more feasible than reinstating the mainline platforms.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would they? Presumably that depends on the timetable, and whether it's possible to avoid timetabling stopping trains immediately before fast trains.

I suspect a more pertinent problem if a stopping service was arranged by extending the Windermere trains (which seems the most plausible solution) would conflicting movements just south of Oxenholme.



Southbound, overtaking at Lancaster is fine, as there are two Southbound platforms. Northbound, it's more problematic: Only 1 platform, so you can only overtake if the fast train isn't stopping. Since almost all trains do stop at Lancaster, that's a bit of an issue Having said that, perhaps a reasonable not-too-expensive solution would be building the curve you mention for Northbound services and overtaking at Lancaster for southbound services.

The loops thing, I should have used the word "probably" in there, but the slowing of existing services and lack of capacity is often cited as a reason why the platforms are unlikely to be rebuilt.

Your solution in the latter paragraph would still require a southbound mainline platform which would be costly to link to the rest of the station. Of course all this is largely academic due to lack of demand.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Hi all...does anybody know the current possibility of this?

To be literal, possible.

However, Carnforth is unlikely to replace Oxenholme as a call, and short platforms would be cheaper than 11-car Pendolino ones, so it would most likely be served by Windermere services as these have a little more flexibility.

However, these turn left at Euxton just like the Barrows, so you haven't gained anything for the London-bound traveller.

The only gain is for a Carnforth - north traveller, who will save 16 journey miles; to me this is unlikely to generate the kind of benefits required to bring Carnforth (main line) back up to standard and re-open it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends a bit. If the trains were frequent, then changing at Lancaster wouldn't be much of an inconvenience. But when Carnforth only has (roughly) 1tph, and some destinations from Lancaster don't have much more than that, changing at Lancaster could well involve quite a long wait.

But solving that requires the remapping of the timetable to improve connections, not the opening of the platforms. It is after all possible that doing so could just turn a 40 minute connection into a 59 minute one, or similar.

And Lancaster, with its station and city facilities and station staff, is likely to be a better place to wait.

 

[deltic08]

There's an action group with a professional-looking website, though it may well just be the work of one person. Perhaps the OP himself????

http://carnforthplatforms.org/

It was to be called Carnforth Railway Action Project but for obvious reasons was changed to Group as CRAG sounds far more South Lakes than CRAP.

From West Yorkshire, changing at Carnforth for Windermere or Penrith is far better than travelling to Lancaster and back again. No real need for Pendos to stop there just Windermere and some Manchester, or Liverpool eventually, to Scotland trains.

It could be done relatively cheaply as the ramped subway is there already under the WCML and only the platform faces were removed. Four car length would be sufficient. Only problem I can see is rebuilding platform faces with passing trains 24/7.

Is the Down platform canopy still there? I know the Up platform canopy was removed with electrification work.

Much cheaper than the proposal years ago to install a west to north chord.

Anything to improve the quality, frequency and journey times of Skipton-Carnforth trains

 

[najaB]

Four car length would be sufficient.

Aren't the majority of Manchester - Scotland trains now six or eight carriages? Or have they stopped doubling up the 185/350s?

 

[sprinterguy]

Aren't the majority of Manchester - Scotland trains now six or eight carriages? Or have they stopped doubling up the 185/350s?

Commonly four carriages, some are eight. Of course, they will all be five carriages by the end of the decade (not sure if any will be doubled up to form ten car workings).

 

[najaB]

Commonly four carriages, some are eight. Of course, they will all be five carriages by the end of the decade (not sure if any will be doubled up to form ten car workings).

So at the very least you would need to have five carriage-length platforms to avoid having to mess around with SDO.

 

[deltic08]

I'm not convinced that much of a commuter market exists. Apart from early morning or at night, any normal person would use the M6 rather than the A6 as it is substantially faster.

I wouldn't use the M6 if commuting from Carnforth to Lancaster. Longer in distance and no quicker in time.