Britannia class failed at Ipswich

[zaax]

Britannia class locomotive sitting in the small “dock siding”

Does anone know why the Britannia class loco was in the sideing, had it failed? Both locos have the same head codes

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/d...lden_age_of_steam_trains_in_ipswich_1_4921066

 

[Ploughman]

Change of engine?
Many trains used to have an engine change, often more than one during the journey.

Last one I had on network was Electric 86 off at Preston relieved by Double headed class 50's to Glasgow.

 

[30907]

Britannia class locomotive sitting in the small “dock siding”

Does anone know why the Britannia class loco was in the sideing, had it failed? Both locos have the same head codes

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/d...lden_age_of_steam_trains_in_ipswich_1_4921066

Thanks for the link - interesting photos and speculations.

The Headcode is the standard Express Passenger (or did the GE use route Codes? ) so that's not significant.

The Brit looks fairly clean whereas the B1 is dirty (and has no discs, only lamps) so the guess of a substitution may be right.

 

[eastdyke]

Britannia class locomotive sitting in the small “dock siding”

Does anone know why the Britannia class loco was in the sideing, had it failed? Both locos have the same head codes

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/d...lden_age_of_steam_trains_in_ipswich_1_4921066

It's a great picture!
Loco changes at Ipswich were commonplace in the 1950's. (Am not old enough to remember the 1940's). The siding was there for that very purpose.

The loco siding was still there in the early 1970's, as this view shows, although the coal siding has been replaced with bike sheds.

Note the semaphore signals still evident but the station has an uncluttered feel without the OLE and with no Freightliners in the yard!

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?img...sjSAhVHK8AKHf0mAjgQMwgkKAgwCA&iact=mrc&uact=8

 

[70014IronDuke]

It's a great picture!
Loco changes at Ipswich were commonplace in the 1950's. (Am not old enough to remember the 1940's). The siding was there for that very purpose.
........

What did they put in the water to make the GE men so whimpish, for goodness sake? A locomotive and crew were unable to work Norwich - Liverpool Street and back in one turn? Seriously? (but with a )

 

[eastdyke]

What did they put in the water to make the GE men so whimpish, for goodness sake? A locomotive and crew were unable to work Norwich - Liverpool Street and back in one turn? Seriously? (but with a )

LOL

Could of course be one of many reasons.
For a few short months 1958/9 Oliver Cromwell was an Ipswich (32B) engine.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Change of engine?
Many trains used to have an engine change, often more than one during the journey.

Yes, but many of such turns were a bit longer than Liverpool Str - Ipswich and Ipswich - Norwich. I mean (guessing) it's about what 50-60 miles each leg?

Last one I had on network was Electric 86 off at Preston relieved by Double headed class 50's to Glasgow.

ITYWF there was a VERY good reason for that change. Like, the catenary ended at Preston? (must have been about 73-74 time.

Incidentally, I think i've only been to Ipswich in the dark, and that was a v long time ago, and I don't know the lie of the station. Which direction are we looking at - my immediate reaction was we are looking towards Norwich, but really, I have no idea.

The photos in the Ipswich paper are worth a shuftee.

 

[Ploughman]

Yes, but many of such turns were a bit longer than Liverpool Str - Ipswich and Ipswich - Norwich. I mean (guessing) it's about what 50-60 miles each leg?



ITYWF there was a VERY good reason for that change. Like, the catenary ended at Preston? (must have been about 73-74 time.

Incidentally, I think i've only been to Ipswich in the dark, and that was a v long time ago, and I don't know the lie of the station. Which direction are we looking at - my immediate reaction was we are looking towards Norwich, but really, I have no idea.

The photos in the Ipswich paper are worth a shuftee.

Still an engine change. And I was aware of end of OHL one of the reasons for the trip.

In the case of Ipswich wasn't there a restriction imposed that may have stopped certain loco types from being used?

 

[eastdyke]

In the case of Ipswich wasn't there a restriction imposed that may have stopped certain loco types from being used?

Britannias worked Liverpool Street-Norwich services via both Ipswich and Cambridge. They also worked to Liverpool Street-Yarmouth (South Town) via Beccles) and Liverpool Street-Harwich Parkeston Quay on boat trains.
I remember too that they worked (at least sometimes) the daily Bury St. Edmunds-Liverpool Street via Cambridge, not so sure about the return.

Britannias were not allowed north of Norwich to Cromer/Sheringham (back in the day).

Some trains were reinforced at Ipswich eg an 'all shacks' working from Yarmouth and Lowestoft that went forward as a fast to Liverpool Street or TC from Felixstowe!

70014IronDuke's questions:
Yes, the photos are taken looking from 'Stoke (Hill)' Tunnel towards Norwich and Yarmouth.
Liverpool Steet-Ipswich is around 69 miles, Ipswich-Norwich around 45 miles.

 

[ilkestonian]

When built, the Brits suffered from a design fault which could lead to the driving wheels shifting on their axles.

Whilst there are any number of possible reasons for the loco being taken off it's train, maybe this one suffered that fate?

 

[30907]

When built, the Brits suffered from a design fault which could lead to the driving wheels shifting on their axles.

Whilst there are any number of possible reasons for the loco being taken off it's train, maybe this one suffered that fate?

But weren't they all taken out of service as soon as the problem was discovered? And a batch of Bullied Light Pacifics sent to replace them.

Just realised I have a 1952 and 1958 timetable and a number of up trains have a long enough stop for an engine change. So it may have been a booked working, most likely off the East Suffolk line, with the Brit waiting to replace the B1. Against that, I'm fairly sure Britannias were permitted on the East Suffolk.

Judging by the sun, the photo was taken in the early afternoon.

 

[eastdyke]

But weren't they all taken out of service as soon as the problem was discovered? And a batch of Bullied Light Pacifics sent to replace them.

Just realised I have a 1952 and 1958 timetable and a number of up trains have a long enough stop for an engine change. So it may have been a booked working, most likely off the East Suffolk line, with the Brit waiting to replace the B1. Against that, I'm fairly sure Britannias were permitted on the East Suffolk.

They were permitted Ipswich - Yarmouth South Town via Beccles (direct).
3 Britannias were allocated to Yarmouth South Town shed (32D) for a very short time 1 from late 1958 and 2 from early 1959 but they were all re-allocated to Norwich w/e 31/01/1959.
Throughout their time in East Anglia their work included Yarmouth Expresses. Notably the Easterling which was a summer service (Mon-Sat) non-stop London - Beccles (where the train divided with a portion for Lowestoft) and the train loco completing the journey to Yarmouth.

Workings were varied, loco changes at Ipswich were commonplace.

70040 leaving Beccles southbound:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&r...BXu19DPE3uypOd9IfL8hl6_g&ust=1489275518695144

 

[70014IronDuke]

Britannias worked Liverpool Street-Norwich services via both Ipswich and Cambridge. They also worked to Liverpool Street-Yarmouth (South Town) via Beccles) and Liverpool Street-Harwich Parkeston Quay on boat trains.
I remember too that they worked (at least sometimes) the daily Bury St. Edmunds-Liverpool Street via Cambridge, not so sure about the return.

The arrival of the Brits on the GE must have been like the HSTs on the GWR 25 years later - an absolute revolution in power compared to what they replaced (mainly B1s, B2-3s? and B12s, I suppose?) I suspect the move had an 'electrifying' effect on staff morale - at last the GE was being given some sense of priority vis-a-vis the GN in the pecking order.

Your comments also indicate just how useful these locomotives were in terms of their RA ratings - allowing a seriously powerful loco over routes that were previously only able to take class 5 or 6 locomotives.

70014IronDuke's questions:
Yes, the photos are taken looking from 'Stoke (Hill)' Tunnel towards Norwich and Yarmouth.
Liverpool Steet-Ipswich is around 69 miles, Ipswich-Norwich around 45 miles.

right - thanks. So it still begs the question, why the time-consuming loco change for London-Norwich - a distance of just 114 miles. The WR and LMR had scores of runs of this length and more. The Southern Waterloo - Exeter was 170-ish, was worked throughout by Bulleid pacifics. I should check, but AFAIK even the oft-maligned Midland would not normally dream of changing a compound on the 125 mile St Pancras to Nottingham run.

It's obvious! Norwich and Stratford firemen were obviously total whimps

Reverting to the photo - what was the middle road for - through goods traffic? Was it up only, or bi-directional? (Unlikely, in those days, i'd imagine.) Or perhaps a kind of run-round release road, for terminators?

 

[70014IronDuke]

But weren't they all taken out of service as soon as the problem was discovered? And a batch of Bullied Light Pacifics sent to replace them.

Yes, my impression was that this fault was considered potentially catastrophic (rather like the bogie fractures on the Kings) and needed immediate remedial treatment. If the Brit in the photo had failed, I suspect it was from something far more mundane.

Judging by the sun, the photo was taken in the early afternoon.

I was trying to work that out too, but as a) it looks a bit of a cloudy day and b) I'm not sure which direction we are looking - is it roughly eastwards with a bit of a north thrown in? - I found it puzzling. Clearly the fronts of the locomotives are in shadow, as a clue, but the Brit appears to be backlit from the south somewhat, while the B1 appears to be lit from the opposite side.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Still an engine change. And I was aware of end of OHL one of the reasons for the trip....

If you knew it, why bring it up? The change to 50s at Preston was an enforced change due to the limits of the wiring at the time, not relevant to the situation at Ipswich at the time of the OP's photo.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Somewhere around there , may be a B1 Whistle .....there was a jammed whistle valve on an inwards working in the small hours , so desperate measures involving a club hammer wielded by a fitter "removed" said annoyance.

 

[30907]

Yes, my impression was that this fault was considered potentially catastrophic (rather like the bogie fractures on the Kings) and needed immediate remedial treatment. If the Brit in the photo had failed, I suspect it was from something far more mundane.



I was trying to work that out too, but as a) it looks a bit of a cloudy day and b) I'm not sure which direction we are looking - is it roughly eastwards with a bit of a north thrown in? - I found it puzzling. Clearly the fronts of the locomotives are in shadow, as a clue, but the Brit appears to be backlit from the south somewhat, while the B1 appears to be lit from the opposite side.

Reference to a map (Google maps in my case) indicates that the line enters the station from the SE and curves left, so leaving WNW towards Norwich. I based my guess on the shadow cast by the signalbox.

 

[30907]

So it still begs the question, why the time-consuming loco change for London-Norwich - a distance of just 114 miles. The WR and LMR had scores of runs of this length and more. The Southern Waterloo - Exeter was 170-ish, was worked throughout by Bulleid pacifics. I should check, but AFAIK even the oft-maligned Midland would not normally dream of changing a compound on the 125 mile St Pancras to Nottingham run.

It's obvious! Norwich and Stratford firemen were obviously total whimps

Reverting to the photo - what was the middle road for - through goods traffic? Was it up only, or bi-directional? (Unlikely, in those days, i'd imagine.) Or perhaps a kind of run-round release road, for terminators?

Planned loco changes happened for all sorts of reasons. Just get hold of a few Xpress books...

Not sure about the middle road, but two-way working in larger stations goes back well before MAS.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Reference to a map (Google maps in my case) indicates that the line enters the station from the SE and curves left, so leaving WNW towards Norwich.

It's difficult to imagine it, but you are 100% correct (from google maps). I had not realised the line entered Ipswich in such a contorted manner. Good spot on the signal box too, but then, with the B1 facing sout-east, I'd have said it would need to be more like 15.30-16.00 in the afternoon?

Light from the west is at such an angle that the Britannia, which is facing more like SSE, still looks as if it gets some direct sunlight.

 

[341o2]

But weren't they all taken out of service as soon as the problem was discovered? And a batch of Bullied Light Pacifics sent to replace them.

Just realised I have a 1952 and 1958 timetable and a number of up trains have a long enough stop for an engine change. So it may have been a booked working, most likely off the East Suffolk line, with the Brit waiting to replace the B1. Against that, I'm fairly sure Britannias were permitted on the East Suffolk.

Judging by the sun, the photo was taken in the early afternoon.

actually the GE borrowed 2 Bulleid pacifics to show what a modern engine could do. essentially their most modern locos were the B1's. What was wanted was a regular interval service between London and Norwich/Ipswich with each loco managing two round trips a day. The b1's would need coal after each run, and a stop for water en route as well

I am not sure what replaced the Britannias, I believe the new timetable did not start until they got the all clear

 

[Taunton]

The B1 may have been newer, being immediate post-war, but the principal express type in East Anglia before the Britannias was the three-cylinder B17 4-6-0, built by Gresley in the 1930s. A number were named after Halls and Castles, which must have amused the GWR, and then a series named after major football clubs (within LNER territory), the nameplates of which, incorporating a brass football image, were generally given to the relevant clubs on withdrawl, and are possibly still displayed there.

Two of them, 61659/70, were actually streamlined like an A4, and at a casual glance could have easily been mistaken for one. These handled Norwich to London trains, a number of which ran via Cambridge as much as Ipswich.

That's a B1 in the initial photo here, superficially similar but it doesn't have the bump in the running plate of the B17. B1s were not universally well regarded as replacements, being often known at Stratford as "Bleedin' Ol' Bongos", after 61006 Bongo, the first at Stratford.

 

[Cowley]

Two of them, 61659/70, were actually streamlined like an A4, and at a casual glance could have easily been mistaken for one. These handled Norwich to London trains, a number of which ran via Cambridge as much as Ipswich.

I've seen photos of the streamlined B1s and they looked pretty convincing. I wonder though if the extra weight of the casing countered the aerodynamic effect speed wise?
My Dad remembers the Britannias being introduced and he thought they were wonderful machines, he remembers seeing 70004 at the 1951 Festival of Britain too. It's been interesting reading this thread. I'll show it to my him when I see him next week as I know it'll spark some memories, he grew up in North East London and did plenty of spotting around Liverpool St.

 

[eastdyke]

The arrival of the Brits on the GE must have been like the HSTs on the GWR 25 years later - an absolute revolution in power compared to what they replaced (mainly B1s, B2-3s? and B12s, I suppose?) I suspect the move had an 'electrifying' effect on staff morale - at last the GE was being given some sense of priority vis-a-vis the GN in the pecking order.

They replaced to an extent B12's but they themselves had been replaced by B17's (Gresley - 3 cylinders) B2's (Thompson re-builds of B17 with 2 cylinders) and the B1's (Thompson). There were only 10 B2's and they worked mostly on the 'West Anglia' routes (inc. Royal Train duties).
But yes fantastic to get new investment in what was still very much post war austerity. They were able to realise the twin objectives of heavier loadings and sharper schedules.

Right - thanks. So it still begs the question, why the time-consuming loco change for London-Norwich - a distance of just 114 miles.

As I said before diagrams were varied. I mentioned trains that came in from Yarmouth as 'all shacks' but were then strengthened to go forward express to London and trains with added TC. There was also the summer (Sat only) through TRAIN from Felixstowe (Beach), non-stop Ipswich - Liverpool Street. The summer Saturday service was at times intensive. In 1955, between 12.45pm and 2pm, no less than 7 services departed for London, 4 of which were non-stop from Ipswich.

Reverting to the photo - what was the middle road for - through goods traffic? Was it up only, or bi-directional? (Unlikely, in those days, i'd imagine.) Or perhaps a kind of run-round release road, for terminators?

The original Ipswich station was the other side of the tunnel (before the tunnel was built), opening in 1846. After the tunnel was built a new station opened on the current site in 1860 but with only 1 through platform 'Cambridge style' and a west facing bay. It is shown here in 1883 in the article from Ipswich Star (the 12th picture down):
http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/d...look_like_when_it_originally_opened_1_4861329

The original station site was subsequently used for Ipswich MPD (32B) and a wagon repair works. Not sure when the island platform was built but I would guess soon after the 1883 picture.

The centre road was an 'up road' and had a scissors crossover to the 'up platform' approximately in line with the end of the west facing bay. This enabled local trains to terminate in the section at the west end of the platform and through services to still access the London end of the platform. It was also useful when through carriages had to be attached and to release locos.
Other uses of the centre road were for up freight and locos for the MPD, either to be held or to pass a train at the platform (the freights weren't quite so long in those days!). The scissors crossover has long gone, replaced initially IIRC by a single crossover but is now plain line.

The trailing crossover shown in the original picture, near the signal box (the crossover is still there and used sometimes for London-Ipswich terminators to depart to the up line - even though the lines through the tunnel are bi-directional now) was mainly used for loco movements. After coming off a train the released loco either went through the tunnel to the MPD or moved just into the tunnel and returned via the crossover through the down platform road and on to the station yard, where there was a turntable (behind where the Freightliner refuelling point is now).

If the Britannia in the picture had come off the train it is very unlikely to have been in the loco siding. The up starter is off meaning that the train is about to leave or for the B1 to go light engine to the MPD. The Britannia may be there for another service entirely.

The alignment of the station is as stated by 30907.
Felixstowe is due SE of Ipswich but trains leave in the other direction. Derby Road (DBR) is about 1 mile by crow but about 6 miles by rail.

In the picture there is a lot of coaching stock in the yard, perhaps a Sunday? No sign of any DMU'S which means the picture was pre-1958.

Sorry for all the verbosity!!

 

[70014IronDuke]

The B1 may have been newer, being immediate post-war, but the principal express type in East Anglia before the Britannias was the three-cylinder B17 4-6-0, built by Gresley in the 1930s. ...

Yes, of course. Thanks. I did know about the B17s, but I did not engage brain before posting fully. (Actually, I originally wrote B16s, then realised they were NER locos - and stoppe counting upwards I can count beyond 16, honest! )
Mind you, I never saw any B17s, they'd disappeared before I came of age.

I see, however, (from Wiki) that the B17/6s had 225 psi boilers, and cylinders slightly larger than a Jubilee, so was subsequently rated as 6P.

That's a B1 in the initial photo here, superficially similar but it doesn't have the bump in the running plate of the B17. B1s were not universally well regarded as replacements, being often known at Stratford as "Bleedin' Ol' Bongos", after 61006 Bongo, the first at Stratford.

Ha! I didn't know that. Bongo probably stayed on the GE all it's life. I remember it was a March loco c 1962-3.

Not really a fair comparison anyway. The B1 was the equivalent of a Black 5, the B17, even with the lower boiler pressure versions, was closer to an unrebuilt Patriot or Jubilee.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I've seen photos of the streamlined B1s and they looked pretty convincing. I wonder though if the extra weight of the casing countered the aerodynamic effect speed wise?
My Dad remembers the Britannias being introduced and he thought they were wonderful machines, he remembers seeing 70004 at the 1951 Festival of Britain too. It's been interesting reading this thread. I'll show it to my him when I see him next week as I know it'll spark some memories, he grew up in North East London and did plenty of spotting around Liverpool St.

I think the streamlined B17s were more for PR (both internal and external) than to save energy at speed. I doubt they ever did more than 75 mph, except perhaps in the dip at Diss if on the Norwich road.

Interesting your dad remembers 70004 at the Festival of Britain. My dad was exactly the same! There were other locos there - I think one of the Tommy electrics, and a diesel, either one of 10000/1, or one of the SR Co-Cos, but it seems everyone remembers 70004!

Of course, William Shakespeare did not go to the GE - it went to Stewarts Lane to work the Golden Arrow (along with, ahem, the excellent 70014). As my parents lived a mile from the SECR, near Headcorn, they (and probably myself, though unaware) saw it as soon as it came out of they exhibition.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
The centre road was an 'up road' and had a scissors crossover to the 'up platform' approximately in line with the end of the west facing bay. This enabled local trains to terminate in the section at the west end of the platform and through services to still access the London end of the platform. It was also useful when through carriages had to be attached and to release locos. !

SO, all rather like Cambridge then - except Ipswich had an additional, physically separate platform.

...
....
Sorry for all the verbosity! !

Not at all! Fascinating stuff for a non-tractor boy

 

[Taunton]

Of course, William Shakespeare did not go to the GE - it went to Stewarts Lane to work the Golden Arrow (along with, ahem, the excellent 70014).

The original intended allocation of the first batch of 30 was 70000-13 to the GE, 70014-29 to the WR. When it was decided to assign two to the Southern they contributed one each.

I'm afraid as far as the WR were concerned they could have given the whole lot away. They were never liked compared (supposedly) to the Castle design, which was nearly 30 years older, and the characteristics of the loco was responsible for at least one major accident on the WR, at Milton near Swindon. If the accident report had been more realistic they would have been banned on the WR forthwith. Sorry for any negativity, you can read more of my opinions here

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1698648&highlight=Milton#post1698648

 

[Bevan Price]

We don't know that this was a through train - there were a number of services that started from, or terminated at, Ipswich. I don't have the 1954 timetable, but in 1955, there was a 15:50 all stations Ipswich - Colchester (SX for part of the summer), and using the Suncalc website, the position of the shadow (signal box) suggests a time somewhere in the range 15:00 to 16:00. The coaching stock is a mixed bag, but looks mostly Gresley LNER design - and in more than one livery - probably not what one might expect on a Norwich / London express at that date.

The Britannias had a fairly short life on the line, with 5 of the first 10 Class 40s taking over many duties in 1958 (D200, 202 - 205).

 

[Cowley]

I think the streamlined B17s were more for PR (both internal and external) than to save energy at speed. I doubt they ever did more than 75 mph, except perhaps in the dip at Diss if on the Norwich road.

Interesting your dad remembers 70004 at the Festival of Britain. My dad was exactly the same! There were other locos there - I think one of the Tommy electrics, and a diesel, either one of 10000/1, or one of the SR Co-Cos, but it seems everyone remembers 70004!

Of course, William Shakespeare did not go to the GE - it went to Stewarts Lane to work the Golden Arrow (along with, ahem, the excellent 70014). As my parents lived a mile from the SECR, near Headcorn, they (and probably myself, though unaware) saw it as soon as it came out of they exhibition.

I wish I was older sometimes (tongue in cheek)
Out of curiosity, what difference did the EE type 4s make to the schedules? Britannias seemed like very capable machines. Were the diesels that much of a step up? A good Brit could put out almost the same power as a 40, they looked modern (for the time) and were fairly low maintenance compared to older types.
Does anyone remember whether the diesels were regarded as a major step forward or just a minor one?
I'm just curious because I wasn't alive back then but I find the changeover era fascinating.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I believe, having read a Cecil J Allen book that touched on the Brits working on the GE, that the Type 4 2000hp diesels were somewhat better but not greatly so. Presumably the performance was more consistent as it didn't rely on the skill of the fireman. However for comparison, the same class on the WCML was seen as distinctly inferior to the Class 8 Duchess Pacifics and even proved unable to equal the previous fastest steam schedules without lightening the train load. This probably also indicates the power superiority of Stanier's finest compares to the less powerful and lighter-footed BR Standard 7.