Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[bramling]

Are network rail allowed to defend themselves in the enquiries and state these facts? Or has Chris Grayling gagged them? It just amazes me that it only seems to be this forum challenging the “party line” it is all network rails fault.

I am with many others. The basic timetable isn’t much different to what was implemented. There is no way Network rail are totally attributable to this mess.

Agreed.

But at the end of the day, regardless of the finer details, it’s the DFT’s project, the DFT’s TSGN management contract, and Network Rail reports to - all together now - the DFT. So all roads lead back to them regardless. The root cause is they have tried to implement too much, too quickly, and with no idea of what needed to be done to achieve that.

As I write this sitting at my table on one of the evening 365 Pullman services, all the advertising posters in my carriage have negative stuff scribbled about Thameslink all over them. What a farce.

 

[Failed Unit]

Interesting addition one the boards tonight. 2054 Peterborough- Horsham stopping at WGC

No idea why the 2154 London - Letchworth service only stops at Knebworth and Hitchin considering how rarely the 2151 runs why do they never stop it additionally. Or cancel it and run it in the 2151 path to Letchworth.

 

[JonathanH]

Speaking of delays being transmitted from the rest of the country through London, 9J63 1954 Peterborough to Horsham was on time this evening at Arlesley. It was delayed by 1T59 1947 Ely to London Kings Cross at Hitchin presumably picking up some additional stops.

Slight delay at Digswell for a late running East Coast train following problems at Retford. Then, it was put on the slow line at Welwyn behind a stopping service, resulting in it being 16 minutes late when it got back on the fast line at Potters Bar. Result, a 15 minute late presentation into the Core.

What is the point of these trains having 9 headcodes if that is going to happen? Maybe the 700s should have been specified for a higher speed to keep their place on the fast line after Welwyn.

Ultimately, the reason for the delay was the problem at Retford.
https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.c...isruption-id=B25CB8FDC5544CB1BE77986435D7806B

Er, spoke too soon - ended up in Kings Cross and didn't make it into the Core.

Dear oh dear.

 

[bramling]

Interesting addition one the boards tonight. 2054 Peterborough- Horsham stopping at WGC

No idea why the 2154 London - Letchworth service only stops at Knebworth and Hitchin considering how rarely the 2151 runs why do they never stop it additionally. Or cancel it and run it in the 2151 path to Letchworth.

They did last night stop it at Welwyn and it put a load of delay onto it, although that was more because no one knew what was going on. Presumably someone feels the 313 service is adequate to Welwyn, though that doesn’t help people doing journeys like Hatfield to Stevenage.

Meanwhile, a Full Length Undesiro appeared in KX at about 2130 with Horsham on the front, then departed north empty at about 2140 with Peterborough displayed. Not sure if it entered service at Finsbury, but again an appalling show having a complete 12-car train leave empty. I’ve heard people complaining that they’ve been backwards and forwards between KX and St Pancras trying to get a service to their destination. Finsbury Park isn’t a fail safe option either as the Pullman services generally don’t stop there. It goes to show just how messy this timetable is.

We have the ThamesLink/ Lottery as to how long a journey will take, and ThamesLink/ Ping-Pong going backwards and forwards between the two stations. The whole thing is pathetic. Things will no doubt improve, a bit, eventually, but it’s given a foretaste of what ThamesLink/ offers.

 

[infobleep]

This is exactly what they should have done. They didn't even need to be perfect with the diagramming, just done a basic draft to see if any issues were revealed. It beggars belief that they didn't do this, so either they are liars or they are completely useless. If it were anyone other than GTR I'd bet on the former, but with GTR I'm not sure.

BTW one of the reasons that NR were late with the confirmed TT was that GTR's timetable had a huge number of conflicts, including conflicts with their own trains. None of this was mentioned to the committee...

Why didn't Network Rail mention it? I'm sure they were at the committee. Own goal?

 

[Hadders]

Why didn't Network Rail mention it? I'm sure they were at the committee. Own goal?

That would be political suicide for NR. They can’t be seen to bite off the hand that feeds them.

The committee kept pressing NR about DfT involvement but they weren’t rising to the bait.

 

[infobleep]

Agreed.

But at the end of the day, regardless of the finer details, it’s the DFT’s project, the DFT’s TSGN management contract, and Network Rail reports to - all together now - the DFT. So all roads lead back to them regardless. The root cause is they have tried to implement too much, too quickly, and with no idea of what needed to be done to achieve that.

As I write this sitting at my table on one of the evening 365 Pullman services, all the advertising posters in my carriage have negative stuff scribbled about Thameslink all over them. What a farce.

If the train has been graffitied, shouldn't it be cancelled to avoid give others ideas.

 

[Hadders]

If the train has been graffitied, shouldn't it be cancelled to avoid give others ideas.

I think GTR are cancelling enough services at the moment without having to worry about some defaced adverts inside the carriages.

 

[philjo]

I was on the 1802 York - Stevenage VTEC service today. It was delayed by 30 minutes due to points problem near Newark so missed two onward Cambridge service connections to Letchworth.
Normally there would be another one in about 10 minutes after I arrived at Stevenage but that does not exist at the moment.
A fairly empty 8 coach 365 to Peterborough arrived at Stevenage so I got that to Hitchin as the Kings Lynn trains were supposed to be calling at Hitchin and Letchworth.
Shortly after that a Kings Lynn service went through on the fast line and the screens shows the next one was cancelled - looks like it was left Kings Cross late so omitted Hitchin.
Had a 23 minute wait at Hitchin for the next stopper to Letchworth so 65 minutes late at Letchworth. Anyway, today's delay claim went in to VTEC for a change!

This morning I was at Stevenage much earlier than normal as I was travelling 1st on the 0728 Stevenage to York and didn't want to risk the 0627 Cambridge stopper not running again to miss the connection so was on the one 30 minutes earlier. Of course the 0627 stopper ran on time today!

 

[AM9]

... But at the end of the day, regardless of the finer details, it’s the DFT’s project, the DFT’s TSGN management contract, and Network Rail reports to - all together now - the DFT. So all roads lead back to them regardless. ...

I find myself in some agreement with that statement. Ever since the DfT gave the TSGN reins to Govia using the mechanism of a management contract instead of a full franchise award, they have used GTR as a proxy to execute their more controversial intentions. Whether Govia could see how they would be used or not isn't (yet) apparent:

If they did, maybe they just decided that a fairly low risk 3% profit (or whatever it is) with the opportunity to blame the TL programme for any failures was better than the normal task of making a normal franchise successful.
Alternatively, they were naive enough to just accept the job, thought that they could make a reasonable fist of it, take the 3% and stand in good stead for future awards.​

In the course of events, they were used to further Conservatibve party ambitions to take on the unions and force DOO on Southern services. The DfT didn't seem to get much blame for the strikes so that was a political win there.
Now, despite the DfT knowing the situation as regards GTR's failure to recruit sufficient drivers and Network Rail's delay in providing paths in time for training to progress etc., they (DfT) seem to have refused to accept that the project could be delayed. That would have politically damaged the government and maybe the current SoS in particular, (it could still).
Hadders' report from Monday's TSC meeting (post #2437) and later summary seems to be quite unambiguous in pointing a finger at the DfT, even suggesting that TOCs reticence to defend themselves against the civil servants might be seen as career limiting. Such is the farce of the 'privatised railway'.
Since the 20th of May, the DfT has not been seen as the cause of any TL problems, the mainstream media choosing to place the blame on the TOC and/or NR because they are organisations that the travelling public have knowledge of. I have felt that they in some ways are the stakeholders, the funders and effectively in control of the major decisions to go with the changes and feel that they will be rumbled sometime although they will probably try to take TOCs and NR (who they control anyway) with them. As Hadders says, maybe the TSC report will include them as a major part in the failure of the changes so far.

 

[ungreat]

Er, spoke too soon - ended up in Kings Cross and didn't make it into the Core.

Dear oh dear.

No relief at FPK...Hence diverted to KGX

 

[farleigh]

Is this the lowest ebb?

 

[HH]

I suspect the DfT is heavily involved in the shambles but no-one in the industry dare criticise them.

Given GTR is a management contract if they needed more drivers DfT would need to agree.
If GTR needed to spend more on driver training DfT would need to agree.

Don't get me wrong, GTR are just as culpable but I can just see a classic 'Yes Minister' scene:

Government (I.e. Network Rail) causes a delay to the timetable
GTR need more resources for training and flag to DfT. In typical Yes Minuster style this wouldn't be a direct request, it would be an incomprehensible message saying that there were certain unquantifiable risks rather than a direct 'the whole operation's going to turn into a complete shambles and a vote loser'.
DfT dither and tell GTR to mitigate the risks in an equally incomprehensible response.

Everyone buries their heads in the sand, the rail service falls apart and the DfT announces an enquiry.
The enquiry will be chaired by someone 'sound' and will completely exonerate the DfT from any blame.

Grayling will end up being promoted at the next reshuffle.

It's not a management contract - they just have most of the revenue risk removed. DfT don't need to agree anything about drivers UNLESS it's part of an improvement plan and GTR pay for it either way (at least that's how it should work).

If GTR's additional costs were caused by NRIL then they could claim those costs under the TAC.

 

[jon0844]

They did last night stop it at Welwyn and it put a load of delay onto it, although that was more because no one knew what was going on. Presumably someone feels the 313 service is adequate to Welwyn, though that doesn’t help people doing journeys like Hatfield to Stevenage.

With buses running WGC-SVG, Hatfield send people to WGC for onward travel if a Cambridge service is delayed or cancelled. The buses run regardless between approx 0826-2300.

 

[jon0844]

I think GTR are cancelling enough services at the moment without having to worry about some defaced adverts inside the carriages.

The exterior vinyls have been etched too on some units.

 

[HH]

But at the end of the day, regardless of the finer details, it’s the DFT’s project, the DFT’s TSGN management contract, and Network Rail reports to - all together now - the DFT. So all roads lead back to them regardless. The root cause is they have tried to implement too much, too quickly, and with no idea of what needed to be done to achieve that.

DfT also specified the timetable to a great extent and what they specified wasn't deliverable.

Let's be clear though, there are failures on the part of GTR and NR as well. It's a monumental cock-up all round. I suspect that Grayling will go as soon as the whole mess is finally sorted, so that nobody else is tainted by this.

My worry is that with so many planners trying to fix the May mess that they will also fail to fully deliver December.

 

[bramling]

If the train has been graffitied, shouldn't it be cancelled to avoid give others ideas.

Generally only if something is regarded as offensive. “Ditch Thameslink” and “Thameslink is sh*t” isn’t offensive - just factual.

 

[jon0844]

My local MP has apparently given Grayling a vote of confidence and is now after Network Rail (as well as wanting Govia stripped of the <his words> franchise) by continuing to Tweet and post on Facebook about Mark Carne getting the CBE.

I am beginning to wonder if allowing Network Rail to be pushed under the bus will be a good way for the Government to use this to push for privatising Network Rail, or indeed going ahead with the idea of allowing future private operators more control of infrastructure.

In all of this, the DfT is still being 'protected' and seen as so desperately trying to help suffering passengers, without admitting to any part in the whole affair.

 

[bramling]

I find myself in some agreement with that statement. Ever since the DfT gave the TSGN reins to Govia using the mechanism of a management contract instead of a full franchise award, they have used GTR as a proxy to execute their more controversial intentions. Whether Govia could see how they would be used or not isn't (yet) apparent:

If they did, maybe they just decided that a fairly low risk 3% profit (or whatever it is) with the opportunity to blame the TL programme for any failures was better than the normal task of making a normal franchise successful.
Alternatively, they were naive enough to just accept the job, thought that they could make a reasonable fist of it, take the 3% and stand in good stead for future awards.​

In the course of events, they were used to further Conservatibve party ambitions to take on the unions and force DOO on Southern services. The DfT didn't seem to get much blame for the strikes so that was a political win there.
Now, despite the DfT knowing the situation as regards GTR's failure to recruit sufficient drivers and Network Rail's delay in providing paths in time for training to progress etc., they (DfT) seem to have refused to accept that the project could be delayed. That would have politically damaged the government and maybe the current SoS in particular, (it could still).
Hadders' report from Monday's TSC meeting (post #2437) and later summary seems to be quite unambiguous in pointing a finger at the DfT, even suggesting that TOCs reticence to defend themselves against the civil servants might be seen as career limiting. Such is the farce of the 'privatised railway'.
Since the 20th of May, the DfT has not been seen as the cause of any TL problems, the mainstream media choosing to place the blame on the TOC and/or NR because they are organisations that the travelling public have knowledge of. I have felt that they in some ways are the stakeholders, the funders and effectively in control of the major decisions to go with the changes and feel that they will be rumbled sometime although they will probably try to take TOCs and NR (who they control anyway) with them. As Hadders says, maybe the TSC report will include them as a major part in the failure of the changes so far.

I do agree with a lot of this. I think as things stand at the moment the average passenger blames “Thameslink” for all the chaos, perhaps without fully understanding what or who Thameslink actually is.

There’s definitely scope for some education, my station did have some flyers being handed out a couple of weeks ago explaining a few things, but I’m sure it won’t be long before something more organised takes off - some embellishment with a picture of graffiti’d 365s stored at Ely and the like wouldn’t be a bad start! I might even do something if I get some spare time.

 

[bramling]

With buses running WGC-SVG, Hatfield send people to WGC for onward travel if a Cambridge service is delayed or cancelled. The buses run regardless between approx 0826-2300.

I get the feeling the drivers are getting rather peeved about being asked to make extra calls. I’ve been on two such services this week, and in both cases the tone of the driver’s announcement has made it very clear that they aren’t too happy about it. I suppose they’re being messed around enough as it is, without then needing to be further made late by extra calls (especially if it then causes further reactionary delay as the service then goes to the back of the PPM queue at junctions).

Just to add to the misery, the Northern Line went totally up the wall this evening too!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Honestly still cannot believe that this is going on, it’s been a month, I’ve been on holiday so I’ve not been aware of anything going on with the Medway route, does Higham have trains stopping there yet? And are there still gaps in services on the line?

One thing I was aware of is how the reality of Thameslink is starting to sink in in the inner SE London areas particularly at Charlton, Woolwich A and Abbey Wood which previously had the fasts, but also the Greenwich branch which had a simple yet reliable service before, the honeymoon period is over now it seems.

Makes me wonder if Thameslink in its current form can survive much longer, issues seem to be much deeper than there not being enough drivers, how many people would opt to return to the old timetable even if it meant losing glossy journey opportunities?

 

[jon0844]

With the reinstated services this week, things are improving. I want to say a lot but that would be tempting fate, and during the day and evenings it has a way to go.

BUT the new workings are starting to become a little more reliable and consistent with hopefully many services not just running today and not tomorrow, but consistently.

We shall of course see, but the plan is to slowly reintroduce services. I have no idea how route learning is going though.

 

[bramling]

Honestly still cannot believe that this is going on, it’s been a month, I’ve been on holiday so I’ve not been aware of anything going on with the Medway route, does Higham have trains stopping there yet? And are there still gaps in services on the line?

One thing I was aware of is how the reality of Thameslink is starting to sink in in the inner SE London areas particularly at Charlton, Woolwich A and Abbey Wood which previously had the fasts, but also the Greenwich branch which had a simple yet reliable service before, the honeymoon period is over now it seems.

Makes me wonder if Thameslink in its current form can survive much longer, issues seem to be much deeper than there not being enough drivers, how many people would opt to return to the old timetable even if it meant losing glossy journey opportunities?

The brand is now utterly toxic. It was already shaky in its former heartland, but in the new areas it is simply a term of ridicule now. Today is the first time I’ve seen the inside of a train carriage plastered with negative slogans about the operator (ironically on a 365 and so not actually a Thameslink train or service!). And this wasn’t mindless graffiti, more a political statement.

 

[bramling]

My local MP has apparently given Grayling a vote of confidence and is now after Network Rail (as well as wanting Govia stripped of the <his words> franchise) by continuing to Tweet and post on Facebook about Mark Carne getting the CBE.

I am beginning to wonder if allowing Network Rail to be pushed under the bus will be a good way for the Government to use this to push for privatising Network Rail, or indeed going ahead with the idea of allowing future private operators more control of infrastructure.

In all of this, the DfT is still being 'protected' and seen as so desperately trying to help suffering passengers, without admitting to any part in the whole affair.

I see Bim Afolami has come out in defence of Grayling. Of course he would stand up for his colleague.

It’s so difficult to pin accountability on any one individual for this - to be fair to Grayling this goes back long before his tenure, although he has shown himself to be ineffective at best.

The Stevenage MP is the one to perhaps watch - that is a rather more marginal constituency.

 

[E759]

Yesterday I boarded the 16:06 from Victoria which is normally one of the faster services that stops at Horsham. Shortly after East Croydon, an announcement was made that the train would now be making an additional stop at Redhill, because of Thameslink (he stopped short of giving further details). Does anyone know what that was all about?

This is, fortunately, a frequent thing now. Otherwise there would be precious few services at Redhill.

 

[E759]

Platform 3 is used in the event of incidents meaning Platform 4 is unavailable (for example, it has been used a fair few times by trains avoiding others which are stood awaiting pilot drivers in Platform 4). Platform 5 is the vanilla-flavour standard option for northbound TL services.

Saw an ALL board at Arundel yesterday. Is this for diverted Littlehampton trains if the BML is down?

 

[Kanrakuq]

Thameslink added a new train, the 0618, to plug the two hour gap in service at Arlesey. It ran today as a 365 and then at 0617 it was announced as cancelled and 200 people on the platform watched it drive past without stopping. Nice!

Oh well, there'll be another one along ... maybe ...

To add to the frustration, it was even advertised as running fast all the way from Arlesey to Kings Cross. 28 minute journey into London from here, wow, don't get that often these days.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Thameslink added a new train, the 0618, to plug the two hour gap in service at Arlesey. It ran today as a 365 and then at 0617 it was announced as cancelled and 200 people on the platform watched it drive past without stopping. Nice!

Oh well, there'll be another one along ... maybe ...

To add to the frustration, it was even advertised as running fast all the way from Arlesey to Kings Cross. 28 minute journey into London from here, wow, don't get that often these days.

I'm guessing it was this service that was going to make the extra stop. Makes me wonder why the stop was cancelled, considering it was running on time from Biggleswade and only lost time around Potters Bar. Looking further down on RTT, it does seem that the 0704 is running today, which makes a first in a long time, so thankfully not such a long wait for everyone at Arlesey (normally having to wait for the 0734).

**EDIT: In fact, looking at RTT again, it looks like they're planning to run all of the peak time services between 0700 and 0900 today (0704, 0734, 0804, and 0834; 0901 is still cancelled). That will be a first if they all do run.
The 0834 is only going as far as Kings Cross it seems (and calling at 0832 instead of 0834) but still, a service is better than none.

**EDIT 2: It doesn't surprise me to see that the northbound services are still messed up, with what should be the 0755 from Arlesey to Peterborough still at Finsbury Park right now. I need to get to Peterborough to catch the 0918 VTEC Newcastle service to Doncaster for onward travel to Cleethorpes, but that's beginning to look unlikely now...
And now this service is cancelled, and the 0825 is listed as 'delayed'. Definitely not making that 0918 now...

 

[Failed Unit]

With the reinstated services this week, things are improving. I want to say a lot but that would be tempting fate, and during the day and evenings it has a way to go.

BUT the new workings are starting to become a little more reliable and consistent with hopefully many services not just running today and not tomorrow, but consistently.

We shall of course see, but the plan is to slowly reintroduce services. I have no idea how route learning is going though.

Cursed that one.

Signal failure on the BedPan part.

We could have had a chance to see how the imported delays impact great northern. But not many services make the core anyway so I suspect little impact.

Looking at the progress of 0607 Horsham to Peterborough service it is as many expected. Picked up delays at London Bridge which are slowly creeping up.

 

[notverydeep]

Are passengers meant to be telepathic?? If they can run services that they've cancelled and not run services they haven't cancelled then the "amended short term bedding-in" timetable is utterly pointless, surely?

Telepathy would certainly be useful, but supplemented by Open Train Times maps http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/sbr#LINK_1. 2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross (0822 from Welwyn Garden City) is not on Live Departures or Real Time Trains, but does appear to have just arrived at Baldock...

Staff at Welwyn Garden City were completely oblivious to the train running and the train arrived to a 'the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station' digital announcements, with no manual announcement to correct this. Unsurprisingly, few people were waiting for it and only a handful of the passengers on the other island platform for the subsequent, slower 0832 King's Cross (2Y17) managed to run across.

It was a few minutes late leaving WGC and 20 late by the time it reached King's Cross. Annoyingly, it missed connecting onto late running 9J13, the 0724 Peterborough - King's Cross at Finsbury Park by seconds. The latter seemed to be partly responsible for the late running - I assume waiting for a driver from Thameslink delayed in turn by the Luton signal failure.