158’s with no air conditioning

[edwin_m]

I can not support the removal of opening windows, a vital facility when the air conditioning breaks as it assuredly will.
What should be done in my view is to make all the windows openable, but to lock them shut when the air conditioning is working.

Electromagnets to hold windows shut are readily available. It would be a simple matter to automatically unlock the windows when the air conditioning has been turned on for say 30 minutes but has failed to reduce the temperature.

I think the concern there would be that people would get to know they can open the window if it feels a bit warm, and then get frustrated and try to force if it's during the 30 minute timeout period or the aircon is within the limit defined as "working" but still too warm for some people.

I do agree the driver is entitled to a cool cab - they are doing an important job and they can't exactly move somewhere cooler as passengers often can. I raised the point initially because the announcement that there would be a delay while fixing the aircon raised people's hopes that it might actually be cooler for the rest of the journey, when all they did was turn the train so the cool coach was at the front.

 

[scotraildriver]

The problem with the 158 is that the sensors for the saloon temperature are located close to the windows. So if one is opened with the air con on the cold air blowing in makes the sensor think it's cold and puts the heating on.

 

[Dougal2345]

What do you expect? You're talking of A/C kit with a design dated from the 1980's and intended to use a now non-available refrigerant gas.
Its going to become an increasing problem: trains where the body shells and power train are fine, but the ancillaries are out of date and spares hard to find.
You've two choices: scrap the trains, or downgrade/isolate the ancillaries. In this case strip out the life expired A/C and fit proper opening windows and maybe forced ventilation

Please scrap them!

It beggars belief that when trains are supposed to be competing with cars, anyone with a choice would want to travel on a 158.

A modern car, even a small hatchback, will have working aircon, ample legroom for anyone but a giant, and an interior where engine noise is minimal.
A 158 has unreliable aircon, ample legroom for anyone 5'3" or under, and a constant grinding, deafening engine roar.

Opening the windows just makes the interior noisier still.

Can anyone imagine what would happen if Ford launched a new car that offered the travel experience of a 158? "Yes sir, it's a new feature that your kneecaps will be wedged against the dashboard for the entire journey... and the sauna/ice room temperature fluctuations are said to be very cleansing. We supply free ear defenders for when you accelerate, they're very fashionable..."

 

[rich r]

When the alternative to a 158 is a Pacer or 150/1, you still view them as luxury trains. We don't often get new kit here in Northern-land, and especially not for the commuter routes.

 

[CC 72100]

When the alternative to a 158 is a Pacer or 150/1, you still view them as luxury trains. We don't often get new kit here in Northern-land, and especially not for the commuter routes.

Nor do they in the East Midlands, nor had they for 15 years in East Anglia, nor do they in Great Western land, nor did they on Wales & Borders for the last 15 years....

 

[rich r]

Nor do they in the East Midlands, nor had they for 15 years in East Anglia, nor do they in Great Western land, nor did they on Wales & Borders for the last 15 years....

Indeed - pretty much anywhere running 158s is stuck with them, as they're still better than the alternatives given replacements with modern aircon just aren't likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

 

[SPADTrap]

I see what you're saying but I'd also suggest the train driver doesn't have the lives of the passengers in their hands that much any more. Many routes have TPWS and such, together with speeding indicators that will automatically slow the train down if it's speeding. Cross a red light? Emergency brakes. So I'd say it's actually pretty hard to kill someone by train.
But I agree. Drivers of any kind need reasonable conditions to work in.

Probably for the best you feel this way.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Not always.

While I can't speak for air conditioning on the 158s, it's perfectly fine to have windows open and air conditioning on. Not very economic, but it's still useful as you should still be able to feel cool air. It'll go straight out the window into the much warmer air but the whole "air conditioning only works when the windows are closed" is a myth.

Just like someone who said a fridge has to be full of things before it works properly...

My statement said it was useless when they were open; not that it wouldn't work. I've had plenty of times this week where air conditioning's effectiveness has been ruined by someone opening a window.

 

[greyman42]

Please scrap them!

It beggars belief that when trains are supposed to be competing with cars, anyone with a choice would want to travel on a 158.

A modern car, even a small hatchback, will have working aircon, ample legroom for anyone but a giant, and an interior where engine noise is minimal.
A 158 has unreliable aircon, ample legroom for anyone 5'3" or under, and a constant grinding, deafening engine roar.

Opening the windows just makes the interior noisier still.

Can anyone imagine what would happen if Ford launched a new car that offered the travel experience of a 158? "Yes sir, it's a new feature that your kneecaps will be wedged against the dashboard for the entire journey... and the sauna/ice room temperature fluctuations are said to be very cleansing. We supply free ear defenders for when you accelerate, they're very fashionable..."

I can't say that I have ever noticed a problem with the 158 apart from being a bit noisy. I would rather travel on a 158 than a 700, anyday.

 

[PHILIPE]

My statement said it was useless when they were open; not that it wouldn't work. I've had plenty of times this week where air conditioning's effectiveness has been ruined by someone opening a window.

Why have they opened them in the first place ?

 

[randyrippley]

What about fitting new air conditioning?

doubt if the cost of a bodyshell teardown to do it would be cost effective, unless you were going to replace the entire guts of the coach including interior paneling and ceilings

 

[DackandBlecker]

What do you expect? You're talking of A/C kit with a design dated from the 1980's and intended to use a now non-available refrigerant gas.
Its going to become an increasing problem: trains where the body shells and power train are fine, but the ancillaries are out of date and spares hard to find.
You've two choices: scrap the trains, or downgrade/isolate the ancillaries. In this case strip out the life expired A/C and fit proper opening windows and maybe forced ventilation

What about fitting new air conditioning?

Thought they were fitted with improved air conditioning. I remember a sticker on one, but can’t remember where!

 

[DanTrain]

EMT were handing out bottled water on one of their shortformed, ram packed, air-con lacking 158s yesterday I’m told. Not that air-con was the only issue there, but it might have helped...

 

[Wst71Pa2]

Greasy spot in a 158 today, stuck behind a stopper, 30 down sweating my arse off. Nightmare. Least it was a decent set

 

[TractiveEffort]

doubt if the cost of a bodyshell teardown to do it would be cost effective, unless you were going to replace the entire guts of the coach including interior paneling and ceilings

The ones that have the underslung and really useless A/C’s wouldn’t need a full body tear down, but then, who in their right mind would design an underslung A/C in the first place. Maybe now with the most modern technology and materials, a replacement could be underslung and last more than a couple of days running, before failing.

 

[superkev]

Glad I don't have to endure trains particularly northerns cramped specimans anymore. My vw golf is super. Spacious and cool.
K

 

[whhistle]

My statement said it was useless when they were open; not that it wouldn't work.

If you're being like that... it isn't useless as you can still feel cool air; it's just quite ineffective. Like hexagonal wheels; you'll still get there but it won't be as effective as round ones. So they're still useful at providing the function they were meant for - travel.

So air conditioning isn't useless as it still provides the function it was built for, even when windows are open. Just because it doesn't do it very well, doesn't make it useless.

 

[edwin_m]

If, as suggested, the windows being open makes the working aircon think it is too cold and put it into heating mode, then it's worse than having no aircon at all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Glad I don't have to endure trains particularly northerns cramped specimans anymore. My vw golf is super. Spacious and cool.
K

Volkswagen will lie to you just as much as the TOCs, so it won't be too much of a culture shock!

 

[yorksrob]

I was on a very warm, sweaty 158 today. Don't know whether the air conditioning was bust or just struggling, but it was looking to be an uncomfortable journey.

About twenty minutes in, the guard opened the windows and the breeze was blissfully pleasant from there on.

As far as I'm concerned, all stock should be built with windows that can be opened by the guard.

 

[47271]

It's been very warm in Scotland over the past week and in fairness all of the refurbed Scotrail 158s I've been on have had good aircon. Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[rich r]

Having just endured a journey from London KGX to Hull on a 180 with non-working aircon, I can confirm that being on a 158 with non-working aircon is preferable, because at least you can get a bit of airflow through from the windows.

 

[superkev]

Trains with no heating or air con should be counted as a major fault and not run on the same basis as having an engine out or similar.
The financial penalty may encourage the depots to give maintaining it some priority.
K

 

[3141]

Well I had a journey from Cardiff to Gloucester on a 158 yesterday (158839), and the windows were open and the temperature was fine.

No, that cannot possibly have been the case. The purpose of this thread is to moan about how it gets hot every summer and the TOCs or the ROSCOs or someone haven't replaced the air conditioning in every class 158 since last year. Also to say that the solution of opening the windows is definitely not a solution even if passengers actually feel better. Next thing you'll be saying is that you enjoyed a journey on Thameslink.

 

[CC 72100]

Trains with no heating or air con should be counted as a major fault and not run on the same basis as having an engine out or similar.
The financial penalty may encourage the depots to give maintaining it some priority.
K

Hmmm, so you have two options - board a train with no air con but travel on time, or have it cancelled so that you wait for the next train (let's say it's an hour later) and endure double the loads on that one train and arrive at your destination an hour late?

I'm sure most passengers would much rather the choice, than being forced onto the latter!

 

[ValleyLines142]

No, that cannot possibly have been the case. The purpose of this thread is to moan about how it gets hot every summer and the TOCs or the ROSCOs or someone haven't replaced the air conditioning in every class 158 since last year. Also to say that the solution of opening the windows is definitely not a solution even if passengers actually feel better. Next thing you'll be saying is that you enjoyed a journey on Thameslink.

Oh I can assure you it was, I was on that very train.

I wasn't dreaming....

 

[Grumpy]

Last Saturday I was a passenger on a 333, 170, 158 and 155. All Northern.
The 333 and 170 were both very poor to travel in and I suspect their air conditioning wasn't working. I don't believe either have the option of opening windows. The 158 had functioning air con and was a delight to travel in apart from the engine noise. The week before a 158 on Nottingham-Leeds also had functioning aircon. I didn't note the vehicle numbers so possibly these 158's were ex Scottish.

Looking at Roger Ford's Golden Spanners over the years it is clear some TOCs/depots consistently outperform others in terms of reliability irrespective of the fleet mix. They put more effort/resource in. So I have a lot of sympathy with Superkev's suggestion that there be financial penalties for aircon not working. 158 aircon can be made to work it clearly need the TOCs/depots to put the effort/resource in.

 

[PHILIPE]

Trains with no heating or air con should be counted as a major fault and not run on the same basis as having an engine out or similar.
The financial penalty may encourage the depots to give maintaining it some priority.
K

It's somewhat deeper than that. Can be attributed do a design problem producing an unworkable system. SWT did something about it and sourced and fitted another system.

 

[scotraildriver]

Scotrail are currently working with Knorr Bremse rail services to come up with a "once and for all" solution to the 158 air con. We'll see!

 

[Phlip]

Last Saturday I was a passenger on a 333, 170, 158 and 155. All Northern.
The 333 and 170 were both very poor to travel in and I suspect their air conditioning wasn't working. I don't believe either have the option of opening windows. The 158 had functioning air con and was a delight to travel in apart from the engine noise. The week before a 158 on Nottingham-Leeds also had functioning aircon. I didn't note the vehicle numbers so possibly these 158's were ex Scottish.

Northern Rail (the last franchise) replaced the aircon on all their 158s with Liebherr equipment a few years ago.