Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bevan Price]

I am at a loss to find the original message from Mick Cash but I can back up Anvil, Eccles1983 et al, that it seems like Northern management want the talks to fail -

• Walking out of meetings early
• Leaving the RMT members sat in a room for hours a time waiting
• No senior management present

Great progress!

I assume that nobody here was present. But maybe Northern felt it was not worth sending top management if they considered that the only solution likely to be acceptable to RMT was "total surrender" by Northern. Whatever the reason, the consequences are more inconvenience for passengers - and probably the start of a slow steady decline in passenger numbers, followed by service reductions and reduced need for rail staff.

 

[kw12]

There probably is for new disputes, see; https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/583582/Annex_A_Draft_40__guidance.pdf

The public service clause looks clear enough to those who see it should apply to rail workers, but is sufficiently provocative to have the potential to be the cause of a much bigger industrial dispute. I suspect Northern don't want to try it out in court, and nor does the government when they have enough bigger problems on their hands.

This document does not seem to make any mention of the use of ACAS arbritation or conciliation services, mandatory or otherwsie.

 

[scrapy]

Strike action would dissapear overnight if there was a second ballot. An increasing number of guards are becoming very frustrated with the RMT.

really?? that's not the impression I get and I am friends with several Northern guards. What are they frustrated about?

Who has told you that ?

I have heard it direct from an RMT rep who works for another TOC not involved in a DOO dispute.

I would say its not, because I work for them.

If you are an RMT member of driver/conductor grade it is likely you or others in your depot will have been informed. If this is not happening then you should be asking questions of your reps.

Are you sure you cant both be right? Are the RMT usually that upfront. Or are they saying one thing publicly but working behind the scenes privately? It seems a bit silly to continue to talk with Northern, as someone said on here talks are continuing, even though they are sending people without power to these meetings. The only way that would be the case is if they still are talking but want to pile on the pressure during neogtiations. If you are right though why continue with the talks if Northern are not sending the right people to the table?

The thing is if RMT don't turn up then Northern will claim it is them who have walked away. Maybe the threat of strikes will spur Northern into sending the right people to the meetings?

 

[yorksrob]

There probably is for new disputes, see; https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/583582/Annex_A_Draft_40__guidance.pdf

The public service clause looks clear enough to those who see it should apply to rail workers, but is sufficiently provocative to have the potential to be the cause of a much bigger industrial dispute. I suspect Northern don't want to try it out in court, and nor does the government when they have enough bigger problems on their hands.

Yes, sadly Government are as much a vested interest in this dispute as any other party.

 

[yorksrob]

I assume that nobody here was present. But maybe Northern felt it was not worth sending top management if they considered that the only solution likely to be acceptable to RMT was "total surrender" by Northern. Whatever the reason, the consequences are more inconvenience for passengers - and probably the start of a slow steady decline in passenger numbers, followed by service reductions and reduced need for rail staff.

If what has been suggested on here is true, it's not acceptable. If you're ready to negotiate, you come prepared to negotiate.

 

[Killingworth]

This document does not seem to make any mention of the use of ACAS arbritation or conciliation services, mandatory or otherwsie.

ACAS services are not mandatory. It's an entirely voluntary opt in for both parties. See; http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2012

Where both sides have been in their trenches for many months, and neither is showing any sign of giving an inch, they'll have exhausted most avenues already. In this case there is the malign hand of government in the background.

 

[northernchris]

Maybe the threat of strikes will spur Northern into sending the right people to the meetings?

Indeed, and I suspect this is the reason RMT have chosen to call the strikes

 

[Andyh82]

As an anecdote, I work in an office of 16 people in Preston. Before electrification work on the Blackpool line started, 9 of that 16 commuted by train daily, 8 from various Fylde Coast stations and one from Blackburn. None of the 8 from the Fylde Coast now use the train, cheaper and more reliable buses being the reason for 4 of them, three car share and I cycle (on really bad days I can join the car share). They all had the intention of returning to the train once electrification work had finished, none have. The chap from Blackburn's annual season ticket expires at the end of the month, he isn't renewing.

Now I'm assuming this is an extreme example, even though I know several other people on the Fylde who have ceased commuting by train in the last year, but it asks the question of how long will it be before the powers that be decide that there are too many trains running to Blackpool and less trains require less rail staff and I'm sure the RMT would love to go on strike when Northern propose redundancies.....

The RMT know that will never happen. Unlike other industries there are too many barriers to go through to end up with a situation of the service provision being reduced. Even if trains only ended up with half as many people on them the services wouldn’t be changed.

Unlike say what happened with First Sheffield buses where you could say the company never recovered from a period of strikes with years of service cuts and reduced investment following.

 

[northwichcat]

how long will it be before the powers that be decide that there are too many trains running to Blackpool and less trains require less rail staff and I'm sure the RMT would love to go on strike when Northern propose redundancies.....

There's a large number of additional services Northern still need to start, plus they seem to be struggling to find enough properly trained staff to run their current requirements so I very much doubt any plans to revise service levels will see staff made redundant. Don't forget redundancy is a pricey option for any employer - in the case of long serving crews nearing retirement in the next couple of years they'll do better financially if they are made redundant - it's far more cost effective to find employees alternative employment

 

[mandub]

RMT communication that was sent out

"
Dear Colleague,

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH

I am writing to you today and I am sure you will share my disgust at the way Northern management has treated your negotiators, and indeed you, with contempt.

I have received a report from the Lead Officer advising me that the RMT negotiating team entered into negotiations in good faith to discuss in the first instance our policy of a second safety critical member of staff on every train with full safety competencies and responsibilities. The negotiation team offered several options around this principle but these were totally ignored by management. Northern would not guarantee a Guard with safety critical responsibilities on every train and solely wanted to talk about any second person only retaining one safety competency, a Personal Track Safety Card (PTS).

We hoped that the planned days of discussion would help resolve this dispute but management, far from looking seriously at our proposals and negotiating genuinely, fell back on their default positon of wanting DCO where the Driver has full operational responsibility for the train without the need for a Guard or any other employee. A totally unacceptable position.

Worse still though was the unprofessional and truly contemptuous way the RMT negotiating team was treated. The RMT negotiating team is your team, elected by you the members, so the contempt shown to them is also being shown to you, their employees. Management regularly failed to turn up on time for meetings, left early, had regular adjournments which during negotiations can happen but not to this extent, leaving your representatives in a hotel meeting room for hours at a time! I have to say that when this was reported to me by the lead officer I admitted to him that I do not remember any employer ever being so discourteous, unprofessional and, well basically, rude.

Northern Management had no intention of entering into serious negotiations on retaining a Guard on trains with safety critical responsibilities. It is now obvious that the strike action called for Saturdays has caused major disruption to services and management called for these talks in a cynical attempt to get the union to call them off. However, it was decided to take their offer of discussions in good faith and enter the talks with an open mind as it would have been discourteous to you not to explore all avenues in an attempt to reach agreement. However, management did not negotiate or budge one inch.

You can see from the above that we are no further forward and the National Executive Committee has decided that there is no option but to call further strike action. They have decided that the most effective strike action, and the action that causes management the greatest difficulty in arranging cover, are Saturdays.

Therefore, members are instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between:-

00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Saturday 25th August 2018
00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Saturday 1st September 2018
· 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Saturday 8th September 2018

There is no doubt there will be lies and misinformation coming out from management in the next few days, do not believe this rubbish. They have, as I have said, treated your union, your negotiators and worst of all you in a contemptuous way.

I will be writing to you again next week with further information.

Unity is Strength
Support the Strikes
Support your Colleagues

Yours sincerely,

Mick Cash
General Secretary

 

[northwichcat]

I have received a report from the Lead Officer advising me that the RMT negotiating team entered into negotiations in good faith to discuss in the first instance our policy of a second safety critical member of staff on every train with full safety competencies and responsibilities. The negotiation team offered several options around this principle but these were totally ignored by management. Northern would not guarantee a Guard with safety critical responsibilities on every train and solely wanted to talk about any second person only retaining one safety competency, a Personal Track Safety Card (PTS).

Surely that's progress from the starting point if the RMT were accurate when they said Northern wanted to not have a booked second member on every service and they wouldn't even guarantee the second person would have PTS.

We hoped that the planned days of discussion would help resolve this dispute but management, far from looking seriously at our proposals and negotiating genuinely, fell back on their default positon of wanting DCO where the Driver has full operational responsibility for the train without the need for a Guard or any other employee. A totally unacceptable position.

So the RMT are still unwilling to accept driver opening, closing and dispatching even if the second person is a fully trained guard.

Worse still though was the unprofessional and truly contemptuous way the RMT negotiating team was treated. The RMT negotiating team is your team, elected by you the members, so the contempt shown to them is also being shown to you, their employees. Management regularly failed to turn up on time for meetings, left early, had regular adjournments which during negotiations can happen but not to this extent, leaving your representatives in a hotel meeting room for hours at a time! I have to say that when this was reported to me by the lead officer I admitted to him that I do not remember any employer ever being so discourteous, unprofessional and, well basically, rude.

The RMT can't have it both ways. Other posts claim they don't think management sent to the meetings are senior enough and yet they complain about management being late or having to leave unexpectedly. If the RMT want senior management they have to accept that their meeting doesn't have priority over any unscheduled incidents on the network which require management intervention. Imagine if Northern announced at stations "Sorry for the disruption you're currently experiencing. Our management would like to work to resolve the issue but the RMT think the role of their members at the December 2019 timetable change is a more pressing matter and they'll go on strike if management leave the meeting to resolve the immediate disruption." :roll:

 

[Bromley boy]

Actually this is a first. Me agreeing with RMT for once. I have not supported them throughout this dispute as A) I think they are on a lost cause and B) I dont see a problem with DOO. However this decision to pull out was a sound one. There is no point in talking to someone who has no power.

Credit to you for being objective enough to acknowledge that. Others should take note!

 

[Moonshot]

really?? that's not the impression I get and I am friends with several Northern guards. What are they frustrated about?

I have heard it direct from an RMT rep who works for another TOC not involved in a DOO dispute.

If you are an RMT member of driver/conductor grade it is likely you or others in your depot will have been informed. If this is not happening then you should be asking questions of your reps.

The thing is if RMT don't turn up then Northern will claim it is them who have walked away. Maybe the threat of strikes will spur Northern into sending the right people to the meetings?

Clearly you are not in a better position than me to know what is going on, because I am a guard right in the thick of this.

It needs a second ballot, and one of the reasons behind that is there has been a significant increase in guard numbers over the last 18 months who have not had a vote.

There are significant numbers of my colleagues who can see right through this dispute , and are losing money for no good reason. Nobody is being made redundant, but the role needs to evolve into a far more customer savvy one.

It's also worth pointing out that so far , each conductor has recieved 2 cheques of £200 each from the RMT. Some of you may consider that a bribe.

 

[northwichcat]

It needs a second ballot, and one of the reasons behind that is there has been a significant increase in guard numbers over the last 18 months who have not had a vote.

I wonder how many of those who voted in the original ballot and are still in favour of strike action use the illogical 'will of the people' reasoning we often see with Brexiteers who can't justify their claims.

 

[Moonshot]

I wonder how many of those who voted in the original ballot and are still in favour of strike action use the illogical 'will of the people' reasoning we often see with Brexiteers who can't justify their claims.

A fair few I would guess. There have been some very heated debates in our mess room in the last few months. Interestingly, our own LDC seem to be of the opinion this is a battle that can't be won.

 

[Dave1987]

Clearly you are not in a better position than me to know what is going on, because I am a guard right in the thick of this.

It needs a second ballot, and one of the reasons behind that is there has been a significant increase in guard numbers over the last 18 months who have not had a vote.

There are significant numbers of my colleagues who can see right through this dispute , and are losing money for no good reason. Nobody is being made redundant, but the role needs to evolve into a far more customer savvy one.

It's also worth pointing out that so far , each conductor has recieved 2 cheques of £200 each from the RMT. Some of you may consider that a bribe.

You are not forced to strike or be a member of the RMT. If you do not agree with the action the RMT is taking on your behalf why are you striking or still a member of the RMT?

 

[Moonshot]

You are not forced to strike or be a member of the RMT. If you do not agree with the action the RMT is taking on your behalf why are you striking or still a member of the RMT?

Strike days are an extra rest day as far as I am concerned.

 

[Jonfun]

Clearly you are not in a better position than me to know what is going on, because I am a guard right in the thick of this.

It needs a second ballot, and one of the reasons behind that is there has been a significant increase in guard numbers over the last 18 months who have not had a vote.

There are significant numbers of my colleagues who can see right through this dispute , and are losing money for no good reason. Nobody is being made redundant, but the role needs to evolve into a far more customer savvy one.

It's also worth pointing out that so far , each conductor has recieved 2 cheques of £200 each from the RMT. Some of you may consider that a bribe.

I think the thing you need to remember is that whilst you are happy to be moved to work in a solely customer service role, that isn't what many of your colleagues joined the railway to do. They didn't join the railway to just sell tickets, they joined the railway to work in an operational capacity in a job which had safety responsibility and a high level of training. Many will have no desire to work in an "unskilled" role with no responsibility. Fares still go up, the deskilling means customer service goes down, as do safety levels, and in time staffing levels will drop. It isn't just a slight change in a job description, it's completely changing the role.

 

[woodmally]

Strike days are an extra rest day as far as I am concerned.

Yep that sums it up perfectly. Its not about our safety or jobs it's a skive.

 

[Moonshot]

I think the thing you need to remember is that whilst you are happy to be moved to work in a solely customer service role, that isn't what many of your colleagues joined the railway to do. They didn't join the railway to just sell tickets, they joined the railway to work in an operational capacity in a job which had safety responsibility and a high level of training. Many will have no desire to work in an "unskilled" role with no responsibility. Fares still go up, the deskilling means customer service goes down, as do safety levels, and in time staffing levels will drop. It isn't just a slight change in a job description, it's completely changing the role.

Which is a role the passengers want as proved by the research. There is absolutely no reason in this day and age why conductors should be responsible for opening and closing doors.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yep that sums it up perfectly. Its not about our safety or jobs it's a skive.

With the small matter that strike days are unpaid! A strike (whether you agree with it or not) isn’t a skive.

 

[londonteacher]

Unfortunately as we move forwards these jobs will become obsolete and the railway will require less staff to be able to run. Whether this is a good thing or not is nothing more than opinion, but it's one that unfortunately is not relevant as technologies develop.

I think that all services should have guards, but then again I live in the Southeastern Metro area where it is DOO and the services run fine and there does not seem to be any major issue.

As to who is right or wrong? Well that is a debate that will continue for years to come, but ultimately the decision will be made by technology.

 

[Moonshot]

Yep that sums it up perfectly. Its not about our safety or jobs it's a skive.

It is when you consider there are no job losses or salaries reduction planned, and let's not forget that 50% of northern services will still have a traditional guard as part of the franchise agreement. And with the total number of services going up anyway, I don't see what the worry is. When this dispute is finally resolved, a lot of people are going to look back and wonder why all the fuss?

 

[Bromley boy]

Strike days are an extra rest day as far as I am concerned.

As per @Dave1987 ’s comments, if you don’t agree with the union’s approach, you aren’t being forced to remain a member, or go on strike yourself.

Indeed it seems somewhat hypocritical of you to do so.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the thing you need to remember is that whilst you are happy to be moved to work in a solely customer service role, that isn't what many of your colleagues joined the railway to do. They didn't join the railway to just sell tickets, they joined the railway to work in an operational capacity in a job which had safety responsibility and a high level of training. Many will have no desire to work in an "unskilled" role with no responsibility.

It could be argued an on board ticket sales role involves a lot more transferable skills for anyone who decides to leave the rail industry, as door opening, closing and dispatch are effectively 'semi-skilled' roles, useful for the railway industry but won't impress an interviewer if you apply for a job outside the industry. Dealing with members of the public certainly will, even if you're applying for a non-customer facing role as the same skills are useful for dealing with colleagues with a different skill set to your own.

 

[northwichcat]

As per @Dave1987 ’s comments, if you don’t agree with the union’s approach, you aren’t being forced to remain a member, or go on strike yourself.

Indeed it seems somewhat hypocritical of you to do so.

Choosing not to go on strike when the majority voted for strike action because you don't agree with the strike would suggest progressive industrial relations rather than the 1970s approach of verbally abusing those crossing picket lines.

Suggesting members should leave if they don't agree with the majority sounds like another way of saying the union is more interested in getting majorities in ballots than representing the needs of all workers in an industry.

 

[Moonshot]

As per @Dave1987 ’s comments, if you don’t agree with the union’s approach, you aren’t being forced to remain a member, or go on strike yourself.

Indeed it seems somewhat hypocritical of you to do so.

No hypocrisy whatsoever. I work a 4 day week and take full advantage of days off. I see RMT membership as an insurance policy , which is actually free as the last 2 years of my contribution has been refunded. I would be stupid to work a strike day however as it would just alienate myself , though a very small number have chosen to do that.

 

[northwichcat]

No hypocrisy whatsoever. ...I would be stupid to work a strike day however as it would just alienate myself , though a very small number have chosen to do that.

It seems you are happy to alienate yourself anonymously but not publicly.

 

[Moonshot]

It seems you are happy to alienate yourself anonymously but not publicly.

Like I said earlier , a second ballot would imo stop these strikes. Its no secret that the RMT got in a ballot 2 weeks before the legislation came in about that.

 

[woodmally]

As per @Dave1987 ’s comments, if you don’t agree with the union’s approach, you aren’t being forced to remain a member, or go on strike yourself.

Indeed it seems somewhat hypocritical of you to do so.

Second time in a week I'm agreeing with the RMT on this. Better not make a habit of it. But if he didn't agree with the strike then he should resign and go to work.