Pentaly Fare App Malfunction

[QWERTY1]

hello all,
First post so do apologies if I’m wrong section Etc

Last week I bought a ticket with the train line app from leamington to Marylebone. When I got to the station I tried to download the tickets but the message I got was “Ticket not ready now. Please try later”
I told the guy at the barriers about this and he let me through. I had my ticket or app checked on the train and she essentially told me to play around with the app and see if I could get it to work, I couldn’t.

So I get off the train and was stopped by a member of staff.
Perhaps not relevant in terms of the case but he did tell me in a rather threatening tone that he could make sure I “ miss my job interview straight away”, what he meant by that I’ll orobably never know.
Anyway, I can’t pay the fare as my bank card had yet to receive it’s PIN so he issued me with a penalty fare of £138 which I think is hugely disproportionate ( I know not relevant to letter of law T&Cs etc).

anyway I was wondering if there was reasonable grounds for appeal and if the ataff’s behaviour ( threatening to make me miss my interview will be of interest to Chiltern)
Thanks for the replies!

 

[island]

The penalty fare was correctly issued as you were unable to show a ticket for your journey when requested. The amount of £138 or twice the single fare is also correct. You are very lucky indeed you were dealt with this leniently and not reported for prosecution as you were unable to pay at least the single fare right away.

You now need to pay the penalty fare promptly to avoid the matter escalating and additional charges being added. You can then seek to recover the cost from Trainline if you can prove that the app malfunctioned – and in future, never use them because they charge more than buying direct from the company for most tickets and the same for a few remaining tickets.

If you subsequently wish to raise a complaint about the staff member’s behaviour towards you then this can of course be done to Chiltern customer relations. But raising it as an attempt to “muddy the waters” and get off the penalty fare won’t work. And before you raise anything I would have a think over what happened in the cold light of day and consider whether the staff member was genuinely rude or was just telling you something you did not want to hear.

 

[furlong]

What day and time did you travel? If you were not travelling in the peak you might be able to appeal on the grounds that the amount charged was not in accordance with the new regulations.

9.—(1) Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.
...
(6) In this regulation “the full single fare applicable” is to be determined by reference to—
(a) the age of the person in question;
(b) the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make, as the case may be; and
(c) the train and route that person is using, has used or intends to use.

I.e. the penalty varies according to the day and time of the journey. It appears no longer automatically to be the anytime fare.

 

[QWERTY1]

What day and time did you travel? If you were not travelling in the peak you might be able to appeal on the grounds that the amount charged was not in accordance with the new regulations.



I.e. the penalty varies according to the day and time of the journey. It appears no longer automatically to be the anytime fare.

The penalty fare was correctly issued as you were unable to show a ticket for your journey when requested. The amount of £138 or twice the single fare is also correct. You are very lucky indeed you were dealt with this leniently and not reported for prosecution as you were unable to pay at least the single fare right away.

You now need to pay the penalty fare promptly to avoid the matter escalating and additional charges being added. You can then seek to recover the cost from Trainline if you can prove that the app malfunctioned – and in future, never use them because they charge more than buying direct from the company for most tickets and the same for a few remaining tickets.

If you subsequently wish to raise a complaint about the staff member’s behaviour towards you then this can of course be done to Chiltern customer relations. But raising it as an attempt to “muddy the waters” and get off the penalty fare won’t work. And before you raise anything I would have a think over what happened in the cold light of day and consider whether the staff member was genuinely rude or was just telling you something you did not want to hear.

Thanks for reply. In terms of rudeness I would mos certainly say it was indeed rude.

 

[QWERTY1]

What day and time did you travel? If you were not travelling in the peak you might be able to appeal on the grounds that the amount charged was not in accordance with the new regulations.



I.e. the penalty varies according to the day and time of the journey. It appears no longer automatically to be the anytime fare.

Thanks for the reply. It was the 11.28 so I would guess off peak. I was not aware of this rule

 

[furlong]

Secondly, it sounds as though you were given permission to travel at Leamington Spa, so that could provide additional grounds for appeal. (If permission wasn't given, you'd not have been allowed to travel but perhaps you'd have been advised to phone thetrainline to ask what to do, or to buy a new ticket and then later reclaim the cost from the trainline, if it was indeed a problem caused by the railway.)

In future, always ask for something in writing, or ask to take the name of the person letting you through the barrier so they can be contacted if there are problems later on your journey and your story is not believed.

 

[furlong]

Thanks for the reply. It was the 11.28 so I would guess off peak. I was not aware of this rule

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of staff still haven't been briefed fully about this change that happened on 6th April this year.

In the early days, Penalty Fares were not used on long-distance services, so the sums involved were not as high. (There seems to be a disconnect in terminology - traditionally "full single fare" meant the "open single" - but that's not how the term seems to be defined since April. The previous regulations didn't seem to define the term, leaving it open to interpretation.)

 

[QWERTY1]

Secondly, it sounds as though you were given permission to travel at Leamington Spa, so that could provide additional grounds for appeal. (If permission wasn't given, you'd not have been allowed to travel but perhaps you'd have been advised to phone thetrainline to ask what to do, or to buy a new ticket and then later reclaim the cost from the trainline, if it was indeed a problem caused by the railway.)

In future, always ask for something in writing, or ask to take the name of the person letting you through the barrier so they can be contacted if there are problems later on your journey and your story is not believed.

Yeah so I was given permission to travel at leamington and tried to call trainline on the platform, I was asked to stop the call and follow the inspector

You’re right about getting written permission though or else I suppose everyone would just say they were allowed to travel.

 

[sheff1]

IF the issue was due to the Trainline fault described in this thread
Refusing access were there are claims of an app fault
(and the date suggests it might have been) then the OP cannot be deemed "very lucky" at all.

 

[QWERTY1]

IF the issue was due to the Trainline fault described in this thread
Refusing access were there are claims of an app fault
(and the date suggests it might have been) then the OP cannot be deemed "very lucky" at all.

Thanks! Yeah I don’t feel too lucky hahah

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

From my personal experience, I can confidently say that the Penalty Fare signage at Leamington Spa is wholly inadequate for a Penalty Fare to be lawfully charged. There is one sign only, and it is utmost unclear and hidden, not to mention the fact that, as with Northern's Penalty Fare scheme, the wording does not comply with the strict requirements of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.

I don't see that OP has committed any offence. They cannot be convicted under Byelaw 18 as they had permission to board without a valid ticket from the gateline staff. And OP had paid their fare, so RoRA S5(3) doesn't come into it.

Now, showing that the above are the case may be somewhat more difficult, but I do not think they would be impossible to show.

I will post back later today with a picture of the Penalty Fare signage at Leamington Spa, as I am passing through there anyway.

 

[najaB]

And OP had paid their fare, so RoRA S5(3) doesn't come into it.

The counter-argument being that, taking an extremely strict view, the fare-paying transaction isn't complete until a ticket has been issued and so the OP shouldn't have attempted to travel until the ticket was actually downloaded. Conceptually, this is no different to using a TVM and the ticket getting stuck in the machine - yes, money has changed 'hands' but no, you don't have any proof of what fare has been paid.

Would a RoRA prosecution be fair? Not really. Would it succeed? Can't say that it wouldn't.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How did the OP get back to Leamington? Uncultivated ticket with App problem and no means to buy a new ticket?

 

[QWERTY1]

How did the OP get back to Leamington? Uncultivated ticket with App problem and no means to buy a new ticket?

I was stating In London for a few days. My PIN arrived by then so just bought a ticket as normal

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The counter-argument being that, taking an extremely strict view, the fare-paying transaction isn't complete until a ticket has been issued and so the OP shouldn't have attempted to travel until the ticket was actually downloaded. Conceptually, this is no different to using a TVM and the ticket getting stuck in the machine - yes, money has changed 'hands' but no, you don't have any proof of what fare has been paid.

Would a RoRA prosecution be fair? Not really. Would it succeed? Can't say that it wouldn't.

No, that's not what RoRA says. It talks about the fare being paid. Whether or not that can be shown when travelling, or even whether a ticket can be shown, is irrelevant. The fare has been paid as soon as the transaction goes through and whether or not a ticket is issued is totally irrelevant to a RoRA S5(3) offence.

In any case, even if we consider the theoretical situation where it is accepted that the fare has not previously been paid, what evidence is there that the OP refused to give their details, or had intent to avoid payment? It would be a total non-starter unless there is more to this than we know.

Chiltern have nothing at all to go on in this situation; if anything, they are the ones in breach of contract (as Trainline etc. are their agents).

 

[Gareth Marston]

I was stating In London for a few days. My PIN arrived by then so just bought a ticket as normal

What have you done with Trainline then? Got a refund?

 

[QWERTY1]

What have you done with Trainline then? Got a refund?

I don’t want to do anything yet until I hear from Chiltern/Appeals service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don’t want to do anything yet until I hear from Chiltern/Appeals service.

Have you checked your bank account - is the payment to Trainline showing?

 

[QWERTY1]

Have you checked your bank account - is the payment to Trainline showing?

It is yeah

 

[najaB]

The fare has been paid as soon as the transaction goes through and whether or not a ticket is issued is totally irrelevant to a RoRA S5(3) offence.

This is getting into the minutiae of contract law, but I believe the contract isn't formed (and hence the fare isn't considered paid) until the passenger receives their ticket. Much like a retailer can take your payment, then return it if the item is no longer available - no contract would exist between you.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely this is yet another case where the existing laws and regulations have not caught up with technology? If you have bought a ticket, then it seems totally insane to me that you could potentially be given a penalty fare or even reported for prosecution if you cannot show that ticket because of a software fault that is totally out of your control?

 

[Coolzac]

Did the OP get a confirmation from the trainline? In the form of an e-mail or something on the App, like 'my journeys' or something like that?

If they have evidence that they purchased the ticket before they started travel it would help their cause no end.

 

[QWERTY1]

Surely this is yet another case where the existing laws and regulations have not caught up with technology? If you have bought a ticket, then it seems totally insane to me that you could potentially be given a penalty fare or even reported for prosecution if you cannot show that ticket because of a software fault that is totally out of your control?

Well I would have thought so. I suppose the flip side is you could go around showing a screen and get multiple trips out of it. Common sense would say I hadn’t though

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is getting into the minutiae of contract law, but I believe the contract isn't formed (and hence the fare isn't considered paid) until the passenger receives their ticket. Much like a retailer can take your payment, then return it if the item is no longer available - no contract would exist between you.

The fare is paid when it is paid (e.g. the cash is taken, the card is accepted). Whether a ticket has been issued is immaterial in the eyes of RoRA S5(3).

 

[QWERTY1]

Did the OP get a confirmation from the trainline? In the form of an e-mail or something on the App, like 'my journeys' or something like that?

If they have evidence that they purchased the ticket before they started travel it would help their cause no end.

Yeah I have the ticket ( or not really a ticket as I found out) in “ my journeys” it just won’t download. Keeps saying that the tickets “ aren’t ready”, been waiting a long time for them now!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Take screenshots of that, as well as anything that shows the time the ticket was purchased!

 

[Coolzac]

Yeah I have the ticket ( or not really a ticket as I found out) in “ my journeys” it just won’t download. Keeps saying that the tickets “ aren’t ready”, been waiting a long time for them now!

Does it have the exact time it was purchased?

 

[QWERTY1]

Does it have the exact time it was purchased?

Not on the ticket but I have emails, bank statements etc

 

[QWERTY1]

The fare is paid when it is paid (e.g. the cash is taken, the card is accepted). Whether a ticket has been issued is immaterial in the eyes of RoRA S5(3).

I’m not too versed in this world but my understanding is I’m not being accused of not buying a ticket more not being able to produce a valid ticket when asked.

I could easily prove I’ve bought a ticket but I could not produce it due to the app not working

 

[najaB]

The fare is paid when it is paid (e.g. the cash is taken, the card is accepted). Whether a ticket has been issued is immaterial in the eyes of RoRA S5(3).

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. People are successfully prosecuted under the RoRA when they say that they have paid but have been unable to present the ticket.

As I said above, a RoRA prosecution is unlikely in this scenario but cannot be ruled out.