Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[dewsnapsliding]

In all seriousness, being mindful of what you aspire to, noting the current lack of any funding progress made with regards to a provision of platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester Piccadilly station, how much in terms of hard finance needs to meet your aspiration at Manchester Victoria station in terms of both infrastructure and signalling requirements and also, may I ask what time scale would be required to see such project completion?

I've no idea Paul, but since the alternative doesn’t appear to be progressing for the perception of value for money (and how disruptive the work will be) perhaps it’s time to start thinking outside the station box

What is clear is that the Castlefield corridor cannot sustain in its current format, the proposed level of service whether for reasons of dwell time, throughput or general lack of service resilience. Reasons for this are the frequency, type (urban and inter-city) and myriad origins of services which are attempting to fit. Perhaps it is time to reconsider how different approaches to the airport traffic can be handled whether this is dedicated airport service (which makes the decision around terminating services more straightforward, but sort of kills the reasons for the Ordsall chord), culling some of the direct services (as others have suggested, sending some trans-pennine back via Guide Bridge, possibly giving pax choices about where to make their change I.e. Stalybridge same/cross platform or Piccadilly take the lift); or as I have suggested but been derided for before, making dedicated long distance services for the airport miss out Mcr (which I accept causes congestion issues further out e.g on Standedge route) but one suspects that it would be cheaper than that which has required to actually sort out the Castlefield corridor properly

 

[Mogster]

South Manchester and the Oxford Road corridor is booming.

The Universities, technology centre and Manchester Central healthcare campus employ getting on for 100k people and the Uni’s have 70k students attending. The old Oxford Road BBC site is having a huge entertainment centre and skyscraper with 700 flats built on it. Manchester Victoria is 30 mins walk away from all this and forget buses as central Manchester is one huge car park.

 

[Altfish]

South Manchester and the Oxford Road corridor is booming.

The Universities, technology centre and Manchester Central healthcare campus employ getting on for 100k people and the Uni’s have 70k students attending. The old Oxford Road BBC site is having a huge entertainment centre and skyscraper with 700 flats built on it. Manchester Victoria is 30 mins walk away from all this and forget buses as central Manchester is one huge car park.

To be fair, Manchester is booming. There is plenty of development around Victoria and Salford Central too.

 

[Killingworth]

To be fair, Manchester is booming. There is plenty of development around Victoria and Salford Central too.

Speaking from Sheffield I'd have to agree that Manchester is booming. I know several have season tickets to Oxford Road to work in and around the University. They are VERY unhappy with punctuality of the current Liverpool - Norwich service. I don't hear any significant demand to go to Victoria.

At Dore & Totley this Saturday morning I met an older lady with her shopping bags wondering when was the next train for Manchester. She hadn't heard of the Northern strikes and had walked to the station looking forward to a day in the bigger city. When told there were no more trains today in that direction she decided she'd go to Leeds instead and change in Sheffield. No chance. The next TPE trains that way weren't until the evening, and no trains back.

Her planned day now ruined (the bus into Sheffield wasn't what she wanted at all, she likes going on trains) she said she might try again tomorrow. The lure of Manchester is great, it's the Northern Hub!

 

[notlob.divad]

I don't hear any significant demand to go to Victoria.

And yet, people on here are enthusiastic to divert all services from both Southport services and stations on the 1830 line, away from Castlefield to Victoria instead. All so that 4 of the 6 trains that arrive via Stalybridge can call at Manchester Piccadilly.

There is nothing special about places to the West that makes their residents any less likely to want to travel to Piccadilly/Oxford Road than people arriving from over the Pennines.

 

[Chester1]

And yet, people on here are enthusiastic to divert all services from both Southport services and stations on the 1830 line, away from Castlefield to Victoria instead. All so that 4 of the 6 trains that arrive via Stalybridge can call at Manchester Piccadilly.

There is nothing special about places to the West that makes their residents any less likely to want to travel to Piccadilly/Oxford Road than people arriving from over the Pennines.

I thought the Southport services had already been diverted to Victoria? Southport would not be in my 12tph, with or without TPE.

 

[Mogster]

I’ve never understood how depriving people in West Lancashire of direct services to South Manchester and the Airport has been seen as so acceptable.

There are direct devices from Llandudno, Cleethorpes, Newcastle and others to the airport but West Lanc’s daily commuters should have to change? It really is a dire situation if these services can’t be accommodated.

 

[_toommm_]

I’ve never understood how depriving people in West Lancashire of direct services to South Manchester and the Airport has been seen as so acceptable.

There are direct devices from Llandudno, Cleethorpes, Newcastle and others to the airport but West Lanc’s daily commuters should have to change? It really is a dire situation if these services can’t be accommodated.

Is the terminating at the airport really about giving the direct links, or is it more about a lack of capicity to terminate services on 13 and to chuck them in the Mayfield Loop or Longsight Excursion Platform.

Terminating at the airport gives the trains somewhere to terminate out of the way on a fairly short spur from Piccadilly. That time would otherwise just be spent lingering around somewhere outside Piccadilly Station, or would mean services having to wrong way out of 13 leading to more delays as trains are cleaned and prepped for the next run.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are direct devices from Llandudno, Cleethorpes, Newcastle and others to the airport but West Lanc’s daily commuters should have to change? It really is a dire situation if these services can’t be accommodated.

Would the use of a Tardis qualify as one of those devices ?

 

[_toommm_]

Would the use of a Tardis qualify as one of those devices ?

Weird.. I didn't see this TOC in the thread about the most complained about TOCs...

 

[notlob.divad]

Is the terminating at the airport really about giving the direct links, or is it more about a lack of capicity to terminate services on 13 and to chuck them in the Mayfield Loop or Longsight Excursion Platform.

It is a terminal of convenience for those services arriving from the West of Manchester. Services from the East (apart from Rochdale) are perfectly capable of terminating in the Piccadilly main shed. But instead some think-tank has decided using twice the number of cross city paths, doing a 20 minute lap of East Salford and stopping intercity services at the 2d most congested commuter platforms outside London: (Liverpool Central taking first place) Is a sensible use of finite resources. That is before we get to the matter of unnecessary running of diesel trains under the wires.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is before we get to the matter of unnecessary running of diesel trains under the wires.

But the great fount of all rail administration, known as Grayling the Boneless in the sagas of the North, has spoken of how bi-mode will be the gift from the DfT Genie of the Lamp.

 

[notlob.divad]

But the great fount of all rail administration, known as Grayling the Boneless in the sagas of the North, has spoken of how bi-mode will be the gift from the DfT Genie of the Lamp.

Tell me, would this be the man who claimed he was

'not a specialist in rail matters'

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Tell me, would this be the man who claimed he was

Perhaps Sir Humphrey would be the one to answer your query, in that very special way that only he could reply...

 

[Greybeard33]

And yet, people on here are enthusiastic to divert all services from both Southport services and stations on the 1830 line, away from Castlefield to Victoria instead. All so that 4 of the 6 trains that arrive via Stalybridge can call at Manchester Piccadilly.

There is nothing special about places to the West that makes their residents any less likely to want to travel to Piccadilly/Oxford Road than people arriving from over the Pennines.

The May timetable change linked together, via the Castlefield corridor, two previously reliable stopper services, namely Manchester - Crewe via the Styal line and Manchester - Liverpool via the Chat Moss ("1830") line. The result has been dire punctuality performance for journeys from Manchester to the intermediate stations on both lines, due to the congestion in the corridor.

 

[B&I]

A couple of observations from an ex-GM resident

It seems to me that some of the issue is related to Victoria and its now lack of platforms.

If Victoria could be rebuilt to something like its previous capacity or ‘just’ an additional pair of through platforms then could we see services from the West terminating at Victoria, with trains able to proceed into a rebuilt Red Bank sidings, and at the same time permit a cross platform interchange to those airport bound services coming from the East (going around the Ordsall curve)

Additionally, what’s to stop the EMT Liverpool-Norwich going via Victoria/Ashburys and then either of the other 2 routes to Hope Valley? That cuts the need through Picc and (if combined with the above) still permits a cross-platform change to be airport. (Other than the end-end journey times/scheduling of drivers/units).

The issue of everything trying to serve the airport from everywhere should lead to other approaches to the airport being considered more properly I.e. Western Approach to airport removing those Liverpool trains needing to come through 13/14. Poss even route the Liverpool Norwich service meaning that there is a serviceto Mcr Airport which from the East also, giving a more direct Sheffield Mcr Airport link (without having to go via Mcr city Centre).

I understand that some places may lose out with a direct service to the airport but that is the point of a nodal transport system with greater reliability and connectivity. Or whether connection can be made from the Airport line to that which bypasses Stockport. These services are then not dependent on the pinch point that is Picc 13/14 and the inter-city services are just that, and not airport to everywhere. Perhaps the airport should also come up with some of the money ...

You are running up against the sort of issues I set out before. Certain people want every train to provide a direct service everywhere on the Castlefield corridor, and the airport, and every major town throughout the north of England (except, bizarrely, the towns and cities to the west of Manchester), but it just isn't possible without a major rethink of infrastructure in and around the city

 

[notlob.divad]

The May timetable change linked together, via the Castlefield corridor, two previously reliable stopper services, namely Manchester - Crewe via the Styal line and Manchester - Liverpool via the Chat Moss ("1830") line. The result has been dire punctuality performance for journeys from Manchester to the intermediate stations on both lines, due to the congestion in the corridor.

You make it sound like that was the only change. When we all know it was just one of a multitude of changes that all contributed to the dire punctuality problems.
As I have said before, I don't have an issue with the service being re-split. But terminate the western part in Mayfield, or Platform 5 at O-road, or re-install platform 6.

However, it doesn't change the root cause of the problems which is the wasteful use of limited cross-city paths by U-turning trains from the East that have already used one path to cross the city, back on themselves, and utilising a 2nd path. That doesn't just cascade delays that where previously isolated to one of the two corridors, it also soaks up capacity that previously was used for recovery.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As I have said before, I don't have an issue with the service being re-split. But terminate the western part in Mayfield, or Platform 5 at O-road, or re-install platform 6.

With regard to the western part, I certainly can follow your suggestion of the Oxford Road options, but I am at a loss to see how services from the west can manage to utilise Mayfield, as that serves eastern areas into Manchester, but nonetheless, I am interested in the route you think will need to be taken to allow this to occur.

 

[Confused52]

You make it sound like that was the only change. When we all know it was just one of a multitude of changes that all contributed to the dire punctuality problems.
As I have said before, I don't have an issue with the service being re-split. But terminate the western part in Mayfield, or Platform 5 at O-road, or re-install platform 6.

Is restoring Platform 6 at Oxford Road possible or safe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is restoring Platform 6 at Oxford Road possible or safe?

For what purpose?

 

[Confused52]

For what purpose?

Terminating services from the CLC and Chat Moss, e.g.for splitting Lime Street to Crewe other than at Piccadilly or turning round the Holyhead/Llandudno.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Terminating services from the CLC and Chat Moss, e.g.for splitting Lime Street to Crewe other than at Piccadilly or turning round the Holyhead/Llandudno.

I wouldn't suggest that as suitable for the Welsh services (as that probably needs connectivity at Picc), but the offending Liverpool service is 1tph so can probably be accommodated in the present platform 1 or 5?

 

[Tomnick]

Earlier posts (I'm sure they're in this thread) suggested that platform 5 might be lost to platform lengthening in the future? That'd presumably take away any opportunity to reinstate "platform 6" (I don't know if it was previously numbered as such). Up direction movements in particular through platforms 3 and 4 are currently constrained by the short platforms - you can't use the full length of either platform in that direction whilst one's signalled out of the other (or even just occupying the east end of 4). The mid-platform signals there help to close up an arriving train behind the one in front, but it's not really possible to improve throughput by alternating between the two platforms - lengthening the platforms to the west might remove some of these constraints, which is probably more beneficial than having bay platforms (which are a bit of a pain to get out of!).

 

[Confused52]

I wouldn't suggest that as suitable for the Welsh services (as that probably needs connectivity at Picc), but the offending Liverpool service is 1tph so can probably be accommodated in the present platform 1 or 5?

What is the answer to the question about Platform 6 if you don't avoid it? It is a long time since I looked at Platform 5 or I wouldn't be asking.

 

[Foggycorner]

Platform (6) at Oxford Rd was taken out of use when the alterations were made to the station to enable platform (4) to be converted to a through platform in the 60's
The space was needed for the point and track work into (4)&(5)
I have a feeling that the MSJ&A DC was converted to AC at about the same time

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the answer to the question about Platform 6 if you don't avoid it? It is a long time since I looked at Platform 5 or I wouldn't be asking.

I don't know, sorry.

 

[snowball]

Earlier posts (I'm sure they're in this thread) suggested that platform 5 might be lost to platform lengthening in the future?

The proposal that is still on Grayling's desk, that is the subject of this thread, which includes the two new platforms at Piccadilly, also includes abolishing platform 5 at Oxford Road as a consequence of realigning and lengthening platforms 1-4.

 

[158756]

The May timetable change linked together, via the Castlefield corridor, two previously reliable stopper services, namely Manchester - Crewe via the Styal line and Manchester - Liverpool via the Chat Moss ("1830") line. The result has been dire punctuality performance for journeys from Manchester to the intermediate stations on both lines, due to the congestion in the corridor.

The reason for that is that the Castlefield corridor is where people want to go in Manchester. All the connections to the rest of the country are there, and between Piccadilly and Oxford Road most employment or other destinations are served, as opposed to the hole that is Victoria, closer to Strangeways than the Town Hall, with connections to a bunch of depressed mill towns (and now the North East).

With the disappearance of the Airport semi-fast with TPE switching to Chat Moss and providing connections to Victoria the demand for the other service will most likely be for Oxford Road and Piccadilly. This then has to run through to Crewe because of the lack of somewhere to terminate it at Piccadilly or the ability to run separate trains to the Airport. The bodge job of the timetable rewrite didn't help either.

 

[Altfish]

Platform (6) at Oxford Rd was taken out of use when the alterations were made to the station to enable platform (4) to be converted to a through platform in the 60's
The space was needed for the point and track work into (4)&(5)
I have a feeling that the MSJ&A DC was converted to AC at about the same time

I thought both 5 and 6 remained until the early 70s, although 6 was rarely used. It used to be used by the trains over the MSJ&AR that veered off at Timperley and went through Lymm and Warrington to Ditton, they finished in 63(?).
The conversion of the Altrincham line was not until 1971.

 

[B&I]

I wouldn't suggest that as suitable for the Welsh services (as that probably needs connectivity at Picc), but the offending Liverpool service is 1tph so can probably be accommodated in the present platform 1 or 5?

Because, as we all know, whenever somewhere's connections need to be downgraded, then Liverpool's Yer Man !

Everyone on this thread seems to be of the opinion that links to the Castlefield corridor and Piccadilly are vital. Liverpool has already seen the service via the CLC downgraded because the TPE via Warrington Central has been replaced by a mich slower and extremely unreliable Northern service to Ringway. The service over Chat Moss has already been downgraded from a semi-fast to an all stops which remains much slower than the previous service, despite electrification.

All of this would matter less if Liverpool was allowed decent long-distance services of its own and more people could change at Lime Street or other stations around Liverpool, but thanks to the tablet of stone which provides that Manchester Must Be The Only Place In The North West Permitted Decent Long Distance Services, Piccadilly remains a major connecting point for large parts of the Liverpool region.