Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

[Bletchleyite]

Should be 1.5m like Germany and others (now Switzerland too) but there's no poll option for that.

1.5m is pointless. It isn't enough of a reduction to make enough difference for pubs etc, but increases the risk.

 

[Starmill]

Two businesses that I know do it in MK are Vodka Revolution in Xscape (though they don't do it all day, only in the evening) and Pink Punters. It wouldn't be technically difficult for companies to provide on a "software as a service" basis a secure means of retaining that data online via a mobile device app, you'd do it using a tablet or mobile phone without a SIM card.

A lot of pubs and clubs do that with your ID for the purposes of ensuring you've not previously been barred don't they? All it does is test the data with their blacklist. I don't think it writes any data?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of pubs and clubs do that with your ID for the purposes of ensuring you've not previously been barred don't they? All it does is test the data with their blacklist. I don't think it writes any data?

I was pretty sure they retained it in case of trouble (but probably deleted it in relatively short order). Might be wrong though. I've not been in any such venue since GDPR was introduced - now they'd have to have a sign stating exactly what it was for.

Edit: looks like one such business already has COVID features included: https://patronscan.uk/id-scanner-for-bars/

 

[Class 33]

The Health Secretary is on record for saying that social distancing will be required in some form, though not necessarily the current form, for more than a year.

Except that most people absolutely don't want a wholesale return to the way things were, which is what the "old normal" is generally understood to mean.

God forbid if this social distancing nonsense continues for more than a year. It will be catastrophic for the UK economy. Many businesses will go under, unemployment will be sky high. Absolutely absurd if this continues for more than a few more months, when coronavirus daily deaths will hopefully be only in single or low double digit figures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

God forbid if this social distancing nonsense continues for more than a year. It will be catastrophic for the UK economy. Many businesses will go under, unemployment will be sky high. Absolutely absurd if this continues for more than a few more months, when coronavirus daily deaths will hopefully be only in single or low double digit figures.

I wouldn't assume that. It would very much appear that both cases and deaths in the UK have pretty much levelled off[1], so unless we can stomach another lockdown we are going to see the same numbers for months if not years, unless there's a vaccine, effective treatment or the virus mutates in some way to be less harmful as it might well do (they often do).

This also means that we won't be loosening on 4th July in my view, or indeed at any point until a vaccine or effective treatment. Which is a bit annoying, but we cannot allow exponential growth to return unless we are going to accept a large number of deaths and go for herd immunity. We might be able to allow stays away from home again as hotels etc can be made as safe as a block of flats, and campsites probably better if you give each pitch its own polybog, but I don't see how we can reopen pubs or reduce distancing.

[1] https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

 

[westv]

A lot of pubs and clubs do that with your ID for the purposes of ensuring you've not previously been barred don't they? All it does is test the data with their blacklist. I don't think it writes any data?

As the only photo ID I have is a passport, the last place I'd take it would be a pub in the evening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the only photo ID I have is a passport, the last place I'd take it would be a pub in the evening.

A lot of youngsters do, so you might just have to get used to it. Or do what a lot of them also do, which is, provided not medically disqualified, to apply for a provisional driving licence and just keep renewing it rather than ever turning it into a full.

 

[Llanigraham]

On reading the article a bit further, it seems that you would have to give your contact details to the bar staff on entering a pub, so that the NHS contact tracers can get hold of you if there is an outbreak linked to the pub.

I can think of several issues with this policy:-

• People may not be willing to give their contact details
• People may give a completely false phone number/e-mail address, especially if there is a reason that they don't want someone to know about their visit to a pub, and bar staff certainly won't have time to check whether any address given is genuine or not.
• Not every pub will observe this rule all the time.
• How are pubs going to store the records that they take? If it is on random scraps of paper these could get lost, and if you have to log it on a computer this will increase the time taken to get served.
• The wrong details could be taken, particularly in a busy pub where there is lots of noise.
• People may also be concerned about data protection - how can they be sure that their details will not fall into unauthorised hands due to negligence on the part of the pub.

I can't help thinking this is actually a tactic that was used on Yes Minister (nearly 40 years ago!) whereby details of a controversial policy were deliberately leaked to the Sunday papers the weekend before a policy announcement just to see what the reaction would be. If there was a negative reaction, the polciy would be quietly dropped from the actual announcement.

Can you provide a link to this article? I can't find anything.

 

[Llanigraham]

I wouldn't assume that. It would very much appear that both cases and deaths in the UK have pretty much levelled off[1], so unless we can stomach another lockdown we are going to see the same numbers for months if not years, unless there's a vaccine, effective treatment or the virus mutates in some way to be less harmful as it might well do (they often do).

This also means that we won't be loosening on 4th July in my view, or indeed at any point until a vaccine or effective treatment. Which is a bit annoying, but we cannot allow exponential growth to return unless we are going to accept a large number of deaths and go for herd immunity. We might be able to allow stays away from home again as hotels etc can be made as safe as a block of flats, and campsites probably better if you give each pitch its own polybog, but I don't see how we can reopen pubs or reduce distancing.

[1] https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And yet we've now had a 158 confirmed cases in one factory in Wales this weekend!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On reading the article a bit further, it seems that you would have to give your contact details to the bar staff on entering a pub, so that the NHS contact tracers can get hold of you if there is an outbreak linked to the pub.

I can think of several issues with this policy:-

• People may not be willing to give their contact details
• People may give a completely false phone number/e-mail address, especially if there is a reason that they don't want someone to know about their visit to a pub, and bar staff certainly won't have time to check whether any address given is genuine or not.
• Not every pub will observe this rule all the time.
• How are pubs going to store the records that they take? If it is on random scraps of paper these could get lost, and if you have to log it on a computer this will increase the time taken to get served.
• The wrong details could be taken, particularly in a busy pub where there is lots of noise.
• People may also be concerned about data protection - how can they be sure that their details will not fall into unauthorised hands due to negligence on the part of the pub.

I can't help thinking this is actually a tactic that was used on Yes Minister (nearly 40 years ago!) whereby details of a controversial policy were deliberately leaked to the Sunday papers the weekend before a policy announcement just to see what the reaction would be. If there was a negative reaction, the polciy would be quietly dropped from the actual announcement.

I wonder how many people visiting those pubs will, when they review the lists, all have the name "Michael Mouse"?

 

[yorksrob]

This also means that we won't be loosening on 4th July in my view, or indeed at any point until a vaccine or effective treatment. Which is a bit annoying, but we cannot allow exponential growth to return unless we are going to accept a large number of deaths and go for herd immunity. We might be able to allow stays away from home again as hotels etc can be made as safe as a block of flats, and campsites probably better if you give each pitch its own polybog, but I don't see how we can reopen pubs or reduce distancing.

[1] https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

I think it's at the point where they'll have to continue the process of relaxing lockdown. The Government won't be able to maintain the current level of compliance until a vaccine is found.

The more data they get as to where the current cases are occurring, the better they can target mitigations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks very much like they're going for something like I proposed above - "one metre plus", i.e. you can drop to 1m if you take other precautions like wearing a mask or being outdoors. Which does suggest the pub renaissance is going to be beer gardens and street tables.

PM 'to unveil new one metre plus social distancing rule this week'

The Prime Minister will reportedly announce a reduction in the UK's existing 2m social distancing rule as Government-ordered review into existing guideline wraps up

www.standard.co.uk

 

[MikeWM]

I wouldn't assume that. It would very much appear that both cases and deaths in the UK have pretty much levelled off

The rolling average of deaths continues to fall daily.

Number of infections has levelled, but the explanation for that appears to be due to contact tracing (which would imply the infections we are seeing will be on average less severe - or even asymptomatic - that those found before).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The rolling average of deaths continues to fall daily.

Number of infections has levelled, but the explanation for that appears to be due to contact tracing (which would imply the infections we are seeing will be on average less severe - or even asymptomatic - that those found before).

Contact tracing results in self-isolation, not testing, so will be having no impact.

 

[MikeWM]

Contact tracing results in self-isolation, not testing, so will be having no impact.

Now anyone can get a test, I'd imagine a number of those contacted will be keen to know (and then work out how seriously to self-isolate based on the result...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now anyone can get a test, I'd imagine a number of those contacted will be keen to know (and then work out how seriously to self-isolate based on the result...

Pretty sure you have to have symptoms. Of course you could just lie, though many wouldn't. It's felt that a test would have too much chance of a false negative in the face of someone without symptoms.

You can of course purchase one privately, though, and they're not as expensive as they were.

 

[MikeWM]

Pretty sure you have to have symptoms. Of course you could just lie, though many wouldn't.

But some probably will

Moreso perhaps, those with mild symptoms may well do so out of interest, whereas without being 'traced' they may well just have dismissed it as nothing worth considering.

 

[Bikeman78]

Pretty sure you have to have symptoms. Of course you could just lie, though many wouldn't. It's felt that a test would have too much chance of a false negative in the face of someone without symptoms.

You can of course purchase one privately, though, and they're not as expensive as they were.

Sorry if I've missed something obvious but has it been proved that people can have the virus without any symptoms? Or that those people can definitely pass it on? It's not something I've heard mentioned in relation to any other disease.

 

[BJames]

This also means that we won't be loosening on 4th July in my view, or indeed at any point until a vaccine or effective treatment. Which is a bit annoying, but we cannot allow exponential growth to return unless we are going to accept a large number of deaths and go for herd immunity. We might be able to allow stays away from home again as hotels etc can be made as safe as a block of flats, and campsites probably better if you give each pitch its own polybog, but I don't see how we can reopen pubs or reduce distancing.

[1] https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Although I know what you mean, BoJo went on today and is going to announce the next relaxation on Tuesday (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53129845) so I think while the cases are lower they'll do this, and probably close up again in a few weeks if a noticeable spike comes about. Plus, Hancock today said "a lot of Britain needs a haircut" - I know I do.

 

[Starmill]

As the only photo ID I have is a passport, the last place I'd take it would be a pub in the evening.

What would you do if required to present ID then? Venues that have a minimum age of 18 can require anyone to present their ID. Even if the venue you're going to doesn't have that policy, they're entitled to ask anyone before serving them alcohol. Presumably you choose to leave if that happens.

 

[YorksDMU]

I don’t have any form of photo ID, so what do I do if it is needed? Have got to, pay for a passport? I’m not feeling happy about this at all right now.

 

[BJames]

As the only photo ID I have is a passport, the last place I'd take it would be a pub in the evening.

I know others have said it above me but I think you're going to find that you will have to bring it if that's all you've got! I've been out with people who present their passport as their ID at the bar or pub with no problems, just don't leave it lying around on the table and I'm sure you'll be ok.

If you're really uncomfortable with the idea, you could try getting one of these cards: https://www.pass-scheme.org.uk/

The only problem is I'm not sure all the places that are supposed to accept them actually do as some don't realise it's a legitimate form of ID, so I'd have a proper look before you get one. I'm not sure if anyone I know has one, myself and my friends generally just use our provisional licenses.

Edit: Sorry this is quite off-topic, just responding to the post but maybe they need moving somewhere? Many apologies

 

[westv]

What would you do if required to present ID then? Venues that have a minimum age of 18 can require anyone to present their ID. Even if the venue you're going to doesn't have that policy, they're entitled to ask anyone before serving them alcohol. Presumably you choose to leave if that happens.

In all my years I have been to numerous over 18 venues but not once have I required ID -apart from the time I visited a casino.

 

[Silverlinky]

The Health Secretary is on record for saying that social distancing will be required in some form, though not necessarily the current form, for more than a year.

Except that most people absolutely don't want a wholesale return to the way things were, which is what the "old normal" is generally understood to mean.

The COVID -19 Alert System rating was just dropped from 4 to 3.....at 4 it says "Social Distancing Continues"...at 3 it says "Gradual Easing of Restrictions"....and if/when we drop to 2 it says "Minimal Social Distancing and Enhanced Tracing
Level 2 kicks in when we have a low number of cases and transmission is low. Now with the numbers of new cases running at around 25-30% of what they were in the peak i'd like to know what they consider to be a "low" number.

We'll drop to one metre, and then in a few months the arbitrary figure will be removed and we'll just be told to "be careful"......that's my guess.

 

[Starmill]

I don’t have any form of photo ID, so what do I do if it is needed? Have got to, pay for a passport? I’m not feeling happy about this at all right now.

If you want to get into a club then yes? Or alternatively look for another approved form of ID that's a bit cheaper. Or don't go to venues with minimum ages if you disagree with the policy on ID. Honestly I don't understand how any of this even slightly controversial.

 

[MikeWM]

Sorry if I've missed something obvious but has it been proved that people can have the virus without any symptoms? Or that those people can definitely pass it on? It's not something I've heard mentioned in relation to any other disease.

The former is almost certainly true (of many other diseases too).

The latter is rather more debateable. There is some evidence, but it seems fairly flimsy to me. The WHO said it seemed unlikely - but then very swiftly seemed to change their mind.

But that's the basis of the masses of nonsense that is being pushed out, from masks on public transport, to maybe having to register to go to the pub. Otherwise a simple 'stay at home if you feel ill' would be quite sufficient...

 

[MikeWM]

What would you do if required to present ID then?

No-one has asked me in years; part of the perils of being over 40

I think the only time I needed photo ID in the last few years was when buying a house.

 

[sheff1]

In all my years I have been to numerous over 18 venues but not once have I required ID -apart from the time I visited a casino.

Same here. I have been in thousands of pubs and have never once been asked for ID. If some pubs do insist on ID I am 100% certain they would be the sort of places I did not want to enter anyway.

 

[Scrotnig]

This also means that we won't be loosening on 4th July in my view, or indeed at any point until a vaccine or effective treatment. Which is a bit annoying

A bit annoying?? What you're suggesting would involve the complete and total collapse of almost the entire hospitality industry.

 

[causton]

In all my years I have been to numerous over 18 venues but not once have I required ID -apart from the time I visited a casino.

Lots of nightclubs and similar scan your ID on the door these days - when I lived near a University going to one of their nights required an ID to be scanned for entry (at the time, I had a CitizenCard which although they said was not accepted, they put it through the machine and it recognised it, so happy days ) and as @Bletchleyite says Pink Punters as well. As well as a number of other places. It was just accepted, get an ID, or don't go out!