Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[FlybeDash8Q400]

When ive asked for day ticket on Lothian , i get told to tap my card , no option of getting paper day ticket.

That’s because the DayTicket is applicable to tap tap cap and thus would be pointless asking for it straight away incase you ended up not needing it, it will always build it up with singles as the system probably won’t allow you to purchase an Adult DayTicket at all as it doesn’t need to. Obvs ECB and LC are different as their system is different. You’ll only get paper tickets if the ticket type is not applicable to tap tap cap.

 

[buslad1988]

To be honest this whole contactless/capping/receipts thing is sounding so confusing and complicated already that I cannot see it being easy for Lothian to communicate it to customers! Or for drivers to explain it for that matter.

Whilst technology is a wonderful thing sometimes you can have too much of it and it becomes overwhelming!

Atleast tap, tap, cap alone was relatively simple to comprehend and explain! It’s welcoming having more payment options (eg selling child/adult combos etc) but I can envisage it taking just as much dwell time at stops explaining as what hunting around for change would.

 

[Porty]

When ive asked for day ticket on Lothian , i get told to tap my card , no option of getting paper day ticket.

You need to pay cash and put in the slot for a paper day ticket. Tapping can't pay for anything other than a single adult fare (which may be capped).

 

[CN04NRJ]

That’s because the DayTicket is applicable to tap tap cap and thus would be pointless asking for it straight away incase you ended up not needing it, it will always build it up with singles as the system probably won’t allow you to purchase an Adult DayTicket at all as it doesn’t need to. Obvs ECB and LC are different as their system is different. You’ll only get paper tickets if the ticket type is not applicable to tap tap cap.

Iirc a paper adult day ticket can now be purchased by contactless, as can a single. It's on the menu at least.

 

[OmniCity999]

You need to pay cash and put in the slot for a paper day ticket. Tapping can't pay for anything other than a single adult fare (which may be capped).

As it hasn't already been posted here, the full range of area-valid tickets can now be bought by contactless on all 'city' buses/services. So for example you could purchase one adult single, one child day ticket and a network rider all in the same transaction on any Lothian bus. In addition to the tap, tap cap thing.

Iirc a paper adult day ticket can now be purchased by contactless, as can a single. It's on the menu at least.

 

[Baileygirl]

When ive asked for day ticket on Lothian , i get told to tap my card , no option of getting paper day ticket.

That was the case when someone wanted a day ticket to be used on bus and tram paying by card. They had to go to the Shandwick Place shop to buy it. Do you get a ticket when you tap on?

 

[OmniCity999]

That was the case when someone wanted a day ticket to be used on bus and tram paying by card. They had to go to the Shandwick Place shop to buy it. Do you get a ticket when you tap on?

You can of course buy a dayticket from a tram ticket machine. I believe the full range of day tickets across all brands will be available on the tram ticket machines soon, minimum spend permitting.

 

[route101]

That was the case when someone wanted a day ticket to be used on bus and tram paying by card. They had to go to the Shandwick Place shop to buy it. Do you get a ticket when you tap on?

No i didnt get a ticket , i asked for a day ticket.

As i asked for a day ticket i was expecting one. If i just presented my bank card and tapped. then that would indicate i would tap and cap.

I remember that day using 15 out to Penicuik , then 40 from Penicuik , East Coast service , so i got charged a ticket and recieved a paper one.

 

[CN04NRJ]

No i didnt get a ticket , i asked for a day ticket.

As i asked for a day ticket i was expecting one. If i just presented my bank card and tapped. then that would indicate i would tap and cap.

I remember that day using 15 out to Penicuik , then 40 from Penicuik , East Coast service , so i got charged a ticket and recieved a paper one.

I would imagine that given regular Lothian services have only had the tap, tap cap system so far most drivers would just assume you're using that system. Customers who aren't familiar with the system are usually told by drivers just to tap the card as they know they'll ultimately end up paying £4.50, and as this system has only just been introduced it'll probably take time for drivers used to the old system to adjust. Just my opinion of course based on experience.

I imagine if you specifically asked for a paper day ticket you would get one.

 

[Siemens Trains]

No i didnt get a ticket , i asked for a day ticket.

As i asked for a day ticket i was expecting one. If i just presented my bank card and tapped. then that would indicate i would tap and cap.

I remember that day using 15 out to Penicuik , then 40 from Penicuik , East Coast service , so i got charged a ticket and recieved a paper one.

As it hasn't already been posted here, the full range of area-valid tickets can now be bought by contactless on all 'city' buses/services. So for example you could purchase one adult single, one child day ticket and a network rider all in the same transaction on any Lothian bus. In addition to the tap, tap cap thing.

I think the point being made is that things have moved on (the 15 and 140 haven't run to Penicuik for ages, so your experience may not have been very recent). From what I recall, last year the company said they were hoping to introduce a 'vending mode' so that you could buy paper day tickets using contactless cards without subscribing to the capping scheme. This resolves criticisms about group tickets and paying fares for others with one card.
However it doesn't help when you've started to use capping then find you need to use an East Coast service. I suppose it's no different to the case when you have to use another operator altogether but one of the selling points of East Coast is acceptance of the Lothian tickets. So it's good to hear they're trying to resolve this too.

Obviously different operators so different system but in Aberdeen the way it works is your first journey is charged at £2.70 (3+ Stages single), with your second journey at £1.70 (1-2 Stages Single) this comes to a total of £4.40 which is equal to the price of a day ticket, any further journeys are free.

I'm not really sure how Tap+Cap could work on longer distance / rural routes with multiple fare rates depending on distance, so it'll be interesting to see what they do for ECB. Imo the technology only really works if you have two or less fare rates.

At the moment on services with only two zones available (like airport buses or LCB route 43) you need to tell the driver where you're going and you receive a paper ticket for the single journey but capping still applies, calculated using start and finish points for each journey over the day. You don't tap out though, just trusted to get off when you said, in the absence of anyone inspecting your paper ticket. Hopefully this can be extended to multiple zones and that's what they're working on. I suppose a downside is that everyone needs to negotiate with the driver so some of the loading speed advantage is lost with multiple zone services.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I think the point being made is that things have moved on (the 15 and 140 haven't run to Penicuik for ages, so your experience may not have been very recent). From what I recall, last year the company said they were hoping to introduce a 'vending mode'

Exactly correct, only they've called it 'retail mode', which can be entered at the push of a button to then add tickets to the 'basket'.

 

[Jordan Adam]

At the moment on services with only two zones available (like airport buses or LCB route 43) you need to tell the driver where you're going and you receive a paper ticket for the single journey but capping still applies, calculated using start and finish points for each journey over the day. You don't tap out though, just trusted to get off when you said, in the absence of anyone inspecting your paper ticket. Hopefully this can be extended to multiple zones and that's what they're working on. I suppose a downside is that everyone needs to negotiate with the driver so some of the loading speed advantage is lost with multiple zone services.

Indeed, that was my point. With that sort of system the benefits of Tap+Cap (faster loading and no paper ticket) are lost. Which is why i'm curious as to how/if it will actually work on longer rural routes. The only way i can see it working is if you then also had to tap off when you got off, however that then slows down offloading.

 

[gavin1985]

My only gripe with the "tap tap cap" is that is it not available yet for the trams. When things go to a new normal the tram is usually part of my journey at some point. It is nice to have the flexibility and don't need to get a day ticket on the off chance of the tram being used.

Could have sworn that the minimum payment at the tram ticket machines was being scrapped?

https://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2019/09/trams-to-stop-minimum-spend-on-card-payments/

 

[Siemens Trains]

My only gripe with the "tap tap cap" is that is it not available yet for the trams. When things go to a new normal the tram is usually part of my journey at some point. It is nice to have the flexibility and don't need to get a day ticket on the off chance of the tram being used.

Could have sworn that the minimum payment at the tram ticket machines was being scrapped?

https://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2019/09/trams-to-stop-minimum-spend-on-card-payments/

I see that link says trams were also going to accept American Express last year, which the bus company still doesn't accept (from what I recall - I haven't checked to see if it changed recently). While accepting other cards is more convenient and broadens the offering for trams, this type of thing can be complicated for occasional passengers to remember. Maybe a bit embarrassing when one travel mode accepts your card but on another it's met with a shake of the head and tuts from a queue of irate regulars. Could happen a lot with tourists going to and from the airport.

 

[scosutsut]

My only gripe with the "tap tap cap" is that is it not available yet for the trams. When things go to a new normal the tram is usually part of my journey at some point. It is nice to have the flexibility and don't need to get a day ticket on the off chance of the tram being used.

Could have sworn that the minimum payment at the tram ticket machines was being scrapped?

https://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2019/09/trams-to-stop-minimum-spend-on-card-payments/

Minimum spend at the TVMs is gone, from personal experience.

The return ticket also offers a slight saving over two singles, which you can't get on the bus! I forget the exact figures.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The return ticket also offers a slight saving over two singles, which you can't get on the bus! I forget the exact figures.

It’s 20p cheaper than the two singles so a 10p saving each way, not much but something I guess.

 

[gavin1985]

Minimum spend at the TVMs is gone, from personal experience.

The return ticket also offers a slight saving over two singles, which you can't get on the bus! I forget the exact figures.

Thanks for the confirmation, I haven't used the ticket machines for the tram in years as I have had a Ridacard until recently and then before that I was just using the mobile ticket app.

 

[CN04NRJ]

That’s because the DayTicket is applicable to tap tap cap and thus would be pointless asking for it straight away incase you ended up not needing it, it will always build it up with singles as the system probably won’t allow you to purchase an Adult DayTicket at all as it doesn’t need to. Obvs ECB and LC are different as their system is different. You’ll only get paper tickets if the ticket type is not applicable to tap tap cap.

Checked this morning and you definitely can buy a paper single or day ticket with contactless now, in fact I had a passenger specifically request a paper single ticket.

 

[route101]

Checked this morning and you definitely can buy a paper single or day ticket with contactless now, in fact I had a passenger specifically request a paper single ticket.

So you have to specifically ask now?

 

[CN04NRJ]

With there being two options of ticketing paid by contactless I'd assume you'd need to state which you want, same as you would at any retailer.

 

[buslad1988]

This from the union: Current order of new single deckers is too far advanced in its order process to be halted but the doubles have been for the time being as they were only at chassis build stage.

 

[CN04NRJ]

This from the union: Current order of new single deckers is too far advanced in its order process to be halted but the doubles have been for the time being as they were only at chassis build stage.

That's a real shame, guess the B7TLs will be soldiering on for quite a while yet. Anyone have any idea when the single deckers might be delivered? (I'm guessing around November/December?)

 

[Lothiangem22]

That's a real shame, guess the B7TLs will be soldiering on for quite a while yet. Anyone have any idea when the single deckers might be delivered? (I'm guessing around November/December?)

Apparently the first of them were near completion before lockdown started so I’d assume it won’t be long before we catch at least a glimpse of them emerging out the factory as I believe ADL are back at work, albeit, maybe not in full capacity.

not long left for the single deck b7’s, with the possibility of us not seeing some return to service at all.

interested to see what is on order however, I am hoping for e200XLB’s, though think that’s wishful thinking!

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

The ECBs single deck fleet are Wrightbus products so they won't be the same. Been talk of a single deck version style E400MMC at the front

 

[Volvodart]

If it is any type of new build not seen before, the first one often gets built ahead of things if it needs to go away for certification.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The ECBs single deck fleet are Wrightbus products so they won't be the same. Been talk of a single deck version style E400MMC at the front

I'm hoping they'll turn out to be on Volvo B8RLE chassis, with two axles. Looking forward to see what the body looks like and how they'll incorporate the different (from standard E200 MMCs) front end into the design.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Apparently the first of them were near completion before lockdown started so I’d assume it won’t be long before we catch at least a glimpse of them emerging out the factory as I believe ADL are back at work, albeit, maybe not in full capacity.

not long left for the single deck b7’s, with the possibility of us not seeing some return to service at all.

interested to see what is on order however, I am hoping for e200XLB’s, though think that’s wishful thinking!

I've heard (and hope) the majority of the new buses are for Longstone and the 30.

I'm assuming with some level of social distancing being needed for the foreseeable future all routes that can be double deck probably will be (2/36/48 etc) so I guess we really could see the end of all of the B7RLEs, at least the remnants of 115-170 with the newer ones becoming part of the training fleet?

Will certainly be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[Lothiangem22]

It will presumably be the first single decks with Lothian’s new interior spec with high back seating and next stop announcements which will be nice to see.
I also got told these were primarily for longstone and the 30’s which is what made me think of Lothian will be looking for these to be as high capacity single decks as possible.
Regarding the training fleet, these are also due new buses as the current ones are soon to be non compliant and completely out dated against what bus types new drivers will be driving in service

 

[CN04NRJ]

It will presumably be the first single decks with Lothian’s new interior spec with high back seating and next stop announcements which will be nice to see.
I also got told these were primarily for longstone and the 30’s which is what made me think of Lothian will be looking for these to be as high capacity single decks as possible.
Regarding the training fleet, these are also due new buses as the current ones are soon to be non compliant and completely out dated against what bus types new drivers will be driving in service

Perhaps we could see buses 1-10 becoming part of the training fleet?

 

[Lothian285]

It will presumably be the first single decks with Lothian’s new interior spec with high back seating and next stop announcements which will be nice to see.

The Wright Streetairs (284-289) have the latest interior spec.