UK face coverings discussion

[VauxhallandI]

I'll refer you to the final paragraph of my previous post in this thread (#2184)

And yes, I've maybe been a bit careless with my words on this thread. I wasn't intending to nominate myself as the spokesperson for all autistic people so for that I apologise. I've perhaps been getting more wound up by things than I should have been.

I’m afraid you are also not the spokesperson for my asthma either.

 

[DB]

This morning I've received a response to the petition I signed about repealing the mask law (think the link was on here):

People must play their part to reduce the spread of the virus. Wearing a face covering helps this, giving people the confidence to return to shops safely, and better protects those who work in retail.

The government is telling the public to play their part and wear face coverings in order to help fight the spread of the virus, enabling further easing of national restrictions.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) usually spreads by droplets from coughs, sneezes and speaking. These droplets can also be picked up from surfaces, if you touch a surface and then your face without washing your hands first. This is why social distancing, regular hand hygiene, and covering coughs and sneezes is so important in controlling the spread of the virus. There is evidence to suggest that, when used correctly, face coverings may reduce the likelihood of someone with the infection passing it on to others, particularly if they are asymptomatic. Because face coverings are mainly intended to protect others, not the wearer, from coronavirus (COVID-19) they are not a replacement for social distancing and regular hand washing.
Since 11 May, the Government has been advising people to wear face coverings in enclosed indoor spaces, where they cannot easily social distance, and where they come into contact with people they do not normally meet.
The wearing of face coverings has been required on public transport since 15 June.
In recent weeks, some lockdown restrictions have been eased and the retail sector has reopened. As footfall increases, we want to give people more confidence to shop safely, and enhance protections for those who work in shops. The British Retail Consortium has said that together with other social distancing measures, face coverings can make shoppers feel even more confident about returning to the high street.
The Government has published guidance online which sets out when the public need to wear one and how they can make their own. There are exemptions for those who are unable to wear a face covering due to age, health, disability, and other reasons. There has been an ongoing assessment as to the impacts of the Government’s policy, including on groups with protected characteristics, that has informed decision making.
The Government is running a proactive communications campaign on face coverings to alert the public where they are now required to wear a face covering, who is exempt from wearing one, and how to wear one correctly. We are actively engaging with stakeholders including disability charities to communicate new guidance to their members as well as highlighting this message to the general public on social media and via broadcasting opportunities.
On 31 July the Prime Minister announced that the face covering regulations will be extended to cover further indoor settings such as places of worship from 8 August.
We will keep advice on the use of face coverings under review, in line with the latest scientific evidence.
Department of Health and Social Care

I'm sure this sanctimonious response will come as no surprise to anyone on here!

 

[Huntergreed]

This morning I've received a response to the petition I signed about repealing the mask law (think the link was on here):



I'm sure this sanctimonious response will come as no surprise to anyone on here!

This really annoys me, not one mention of the actual evidence or any of the points raised, just a complete dismissal of them in favour of their own opinions. If they kept their views “in line with the latest scientific evidence”, they wouldn’t be mandated now.

 

[yorkie]

That’s what I thought. I politely pointed him to the legislation but he was adamant, all the while furiously tapping on a sticker saying ‘Please do not eat or drink on board’.

I'd make a complaint to Northern. It may be worth quoting from the legislation.

Also don't forget, Northern are subject to FOI, so they can be asked questions such as what instructions they have issued to staff, and why they decided to place stickers on trains that purport to prohibit a basic human right which is specifically allowed by the legislation.

To be honest the way some Northern Guards act can be extremely unprofessional and this is just yet another example of poor behaviour, which seems much rarer on other companies for some reason; I really don't understand why some of them act this way. That said, in all my recent journeys on Northern trains, I've not seen a Guard walk through the passenger area.

I thought guards were instructed by the RMT not to enforce mask wearing?

True, and most do stick to that.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publications/rmt-advice-to-members-on-legislation-in-england-requiring/rmt-advice-to-members-on-legislation-in-england-requiring-passengers-on-public-transport-to-wear-face-coverings.docx

staff are categorically not responsible for enforcement and should always avoid any conflict situations with passengers.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

This morning I've received a response to the petition I signed about repealing the mask law (think the link was on here):



I'm sure this sanctimonious response will come as no surprise to anyone on here!

Good to see they're still playing the "give people confidence" game!

 

[bramling]

Good to see they're still playing the "give people confidence" game!

This aspect *really* annoys me.

I wonder how many damp masks are being worn today?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I wonder how many damp masks are being worn today?

Or reused disposable ones, or ones under the nose, maybe even upside down ones too!

And don't forget the one that comes out of the back pocket.

 

[DB]

Masks in shops have killed the impulse buy but retail sales improve

Recovery is being driven by food and furniture sales and retailers warned of more difficult times ahead

www.telegraph.co.uk

Can't read the full article as it's behind the paywall, but the first few paragraphs seem to directly contradict the government response posted above - and note that this issue is being raised by the British Retail consortium, quoted by the government as being in favour of masks!

I wonder to what extend the increase in food sales in July was driven by people stocking up once the mask rule was announced? The figures for August will probably show whether this was the case.

Face masks have killed off impulse buying as a study from a retailer body found that people are mainly buying essentials.


Data from the British Retail Consortium (BRC), a trade body, showed that while overall sales increased marginally in July compared to last year, this is still being driven by food sales, with sectors like fashion and beauty continuing to struggle.


Helen Dickinson, the chief executive, said that many people were still reluctant to go out and there had been fewer impulse purchases.


Richard Lim, of analysts Retail Economics, said that the mandatory face mask rules had accelerated this trend as people who would otherwise have popped into a shop while on a day out may be unable to if they did not have their mask

 

[Baxenden Bank]

He's a libertarian so I doubt that a lot.

So much a libertarian that he is the only person in GB that has ever bought water cannon, with the intention of using them on the public, and a job lot of three of them rather than a single buy as a trial run!

PS said water cannon sold with a £300,000 loss.

 

[yorkie]

I hope this is not stopping you from going into shops or going on public transport. If you have enough confidence, all you should need to do if challenged is say “I am exempt”. But otherwise you could just print yourself a card saying “I have autism/Aspergers/a medical condition so I can’t wear a mask”.

Agreed. Printing a card may be best, so that you don't have any nervousness of responding (which could be an issue if someone asks aggressively)

If anyone is covered by an exemption and doesn't have easy access to a printer, and would like me to print an exemption card onto card and laminate and post it to them, get in touch and I will do that.

It seems to be generally acknowleged that this government makes considerable use of polling to find out what the reaction is to their policies.

This suggests to me that if the face mask policy is driven by political rather than scientific considerations, more people in the UK support them then are against them.

Yes, I am inclined to agree. But it's clearly not true that most people support them (as evidence by the fact hardly anyone wears/wore them when not mandated); however it is true that most vocal people support them.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Masks in shops have killed the impulse buy but retail sales improve

Recovery is being driven by food and furniture sales and retailers warned of more difficult times ahead

www.telegraph.co.uk

Can't read the full article as it's behind the paywall, but the first few paragraphs seem to directly contradict the government response posted above - and note that this issue is being raised by the British Retail consortium, quoted by the government as being in favour of masks!

I wonder to what extend the increase in food sales in July was driven by people stocking up once the mask rule was announced? The figures for August will probably show whether this was the case.

From the above:

Helen Dickinson, the chief executive, said that many people were still reluctant to go out and there had been fewer impulse purchases.

Perhaps she could give us an insight as to WHY people are still reluctant to go out shopping?

Twice now I have had an online survey pop up whilst using the Tesco website. One of the questions is (something along the lines of) 'how likely are you to go shopping in Tesco in person'. Answer range: 1 - very unlikely through to 10 - very likely. I answer '1 - very unlikely'. Yet they do not follow up that response (as happens on some of the questions). What interpretation are they putting my response? a) That I am too scared to leave my front door despite all the safety measures, or, b) that I felt perfectly safe to go shopping in person at the height of the pandemic but decided that a face-covering was the straw that broke the camel's back?

 

[island]

Southeastern PISs are incorrectly stating today that “you must wear a face covering on trains and at stations”.

 

[yorkie]

Southeastern PISs are incorrectly stating today that “you must wear a face covering on trains and at stations”.

Agreed. My understanding is that the law only requires them to be worn in enclosed areas within stations.

And here is a quote from NRE:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/face-coverings.aspx

Where does this apply – just on trains or in stations too?

Face coverings are mandatory on board the train and in all enclosed areas of railway stations, from when you enter a station, throughout your journey and exiting the station at the other end. If you are then moving onto the bus, tram or tube, you should avoid taking off your face covering while interchanging and avoid touching your face or mouth unnecessarily.

I like this quote from the Gov.scot website, but I believe the law is the same in England:

Archive Timeline

www.gov.scot

There is no evidence to suggest there might be a benefit outdoors from wearing a face covering unless in a crowded situation.

That didn't stop a member of Scotrail staff brusquely trying to get people to put them on at Hamilton Central station last week.

My expectation is that some railway staff will not be interested in reading the actual rules and will just make things up, sadly; this has always been the case, and probably always will be.

 

[talldave]

We won’t though. Thanks to all the hysteria, stuff like face masks and social distancing are unlikely to completely disappear in my lifetime. Too many hysterical people still driving the agenda. The “just in case” types. Even if the virus completely disappeared today, we’d be told the restrictions must continue to prevent flu deaths etc. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle now.

It can, provided those of us with brains ignore the stupidity.

 

[birchesgreen]

Non payment of fines can mean jail....

In theory though with the prison and court systems as full and overloaded as they are it is unlikely.

 

[Wolfie]

In theory though with the prison and court systems as full and overloaded as they are it is unlikely.

Agreed. Someone would have to be very unlucky or highly obstructive.

 

[adc82140]

I hope this is not stopping you from going into shops or going on public transport. If you have enough confidence, all you should need to do if challenged is say “I am exempt”. But otherwise you could just print yourself a card saying “I have autism/Aspergers/a medical condition so I can’t wear a mask”.

Somewhere on the government website there is an exemption card you can download. You could set it up as screen saver on your phone. Then if challenged by an authorised person, you don't have to say anything that could be overheard by someone else. If you are challenged by a member of the public, my suggested response would be a variant on "mind your own business", but I understand that many exempt people would not be comfortable doing this. The exemption phone screen saver would hopefully see them off too, without having to reveal your medical history, or physically display some kind of label on you.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I am also on the ASD spectrum and carry a card, although I've rarely had to show it as I function reasonably well in public life. I have made it known here that I am in the no-mask camp but will wear one from time to time to avoid confrontation and have never used my ASD as an excuse to not wear one. Yes, I find wearing a mask very uncomfortable;especially in the hot weather and I will always take it off at the first opportunity.

I can't remember where I read it now, but I did find out that as a car driver, it is illegal to wear a face mask as it can obstruct your field of vision. Is this true as I see learner cars with both instructor and learner masked up.

In my local Costas today, nearly every customer was not wearing a face covering of any sort, nor had one dangling around the chin

 

[talldave]

In my local Costas today, nearly every customer was not wearing a face covering of any sort, nor had one dangling around the chin

Just been to the local shops. Post Office/WH Smith, about 50% of customers wearing, staff at 0%. Costa about 10% of customers wearing (for the standy-up infectious bit), staff at 0%.

 

[trainophile]

I am also on the ASD spectrum and carry a card, although I've rarely had to show it as I function reasonably well in public life. I have made it known here that I am in the no-mask camp but will wear one from time to time to avoid confrontation and have never used my ASD as an excuse to not wear one. Yes, I find wearing a mask very uncomfortable;especially in the hot weather and I will always take it off at the first opportunity.

I can't remember where I read it now, but I did find out that as a car driver, it is illegal to wear a face mask as it can obstruct your field of vision. Is this true as I see learner cars with both instructor and learner masked up.

In my local Costas today, nearly every customer was not wearing a face covering of any sort, nor had one dangling around the chin

As we are required to keep face coverings on until we have left station premises, I wonder how long it will be before someone misjudges stepping off a train as their field of vision is obstructed, and breaks a limb.

 

[45107]

I can't remember where I read it now, but I did find out that as a car driver, it is illegal to wear a face mask as it can obstruct your field of vision. Is this true as I see learner cars with both instructor and learner masked up.

Maybe you should tell the police. I have seen police cars with the occupants in the front seats wearing face coverings.

 

[Huntergreed]

I’m pretty sure it’s not illegal to wear a mask whilst driving. Indeed during the driving tests and lessons at the moment they are mandatory so it would be completely bizarre if it were both mandatory and illegal.

 

[45107]

As we are required to keep face coverings on until we have left station premises, I wonder how long it will be before someone misjudges stepping off a train as their field of vision is obstructed, and breaks a limb.

To be honest, if the face mask is obstructing your field of vision the logical thing to do would be to adjust it to prevent this.
However, in a ‘where there‘s blame, there’s a claim’ society it would not surprise me.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Masks in shops have killed the impulse buy but retail sales improve

Recovery is being driven by food and furniture sales and retailers warned of more difficult times ahead

www.telegraph.co.uk

Can't read the full article as it's behind the paywall, but the first few paragraphs seem to directly contradict the government response posted above - and note that this issue is being raised by the British Retail consortium, quoted by the government as being in favour of masks!

I wonder to what extend the increase in food sales in July was driven by people stocking up once the mask rule was announced? The figures for August will probably show whether this was the case.

From the same article:

Nick Carroll, an analyst at Mintel, said that current times are “far from normal trading”. He said consumers still appeared uncomfortable “dwelling” in stores for too long which was hitting spending on discretionary goods

I wonder why they might be ‘uncomfortable’ dwelling in shops? Could it have anything to do with glasses getting steamed up and, to a lesser extent, normal breathing being impaired? Or just seeing loads of other people masked-up subliminally tells them ‘this is dangerous and I must extricate myself from this environment as soon as practicable’ ?

 

[trainophile]

From the same article:

I wonder why they might be ‘uncomfortable’ dwelling in shops? Could it have anything to do with glasses getting steamed up and, to a lesser extent, normal breathing being impaired? Or just seeing loads of other people masked-up subliminally tells them ‘this is dangerous and I must extricate myself from this environment as soon as practicable’ ?

Also we've all had three months to get used to ordering stuff online, which in the main has worked very well. Why would we want to go back to mixing with the hot polloi in retail spaces, where we may have to queue outside, be instructed to disinfect our hands on entry, same with shopping trolleys, follow weird one way systems around the place, and do the social distance dance every few seconds. The only thing I miss is looking for reductions and bargains, but mainly I am quite happy to keep having my requirements delivered.

 

[westv]

To be honest, if the face mask is obstructing your field of vision the logical thing to do would be to adjust it to prevent this.
However, in a ‘where there‘s blame, there’s a claim’ society it would not surprise me.

I find, by their very nature, masks obstruct slightly my lower vision so I need to keep looking down.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I have just been spat on by a possibly deranged person at a Thames Valley stop, who was ranting on about masks. I still had my Hancock Control Muzzle on coming out of the station. It's quite ironic given I wear these damn things under sufferance.

Other highlights of the day include a Corona Karen giving a maskless Eastern European lady a load of mouth whilst she had her own muzzle as a chin ornament as she ranted down the phone at her boyfriend, and a guy walking up and down the westbound district in a plague doctor mask.

Edit:
There is going to be trouble. Our waster of a leader, rather than back down when he gets it wrong, digs his heels in further. In spite of the enhanced Hancock fines, mask compliance seemed lower today...

 

[trebor79]

In Cornwall for 2 weeks holiday. In a small newwagents/convenience store there were 2 other customers. One masked, one had his mask dangling from one ear. Both in conversation with the unmasked proprietor, so I didn't bother masking up. When the other customers had finished, the dangler put his mask on, walked three steps to exit the shop and took it off again.
Nothing said about my nakedness.

Went to a Chinese takeaway. Perspex all round the counter. Nobody wearing or dangling any mask whatsoever.

Earlier I'd had to remove my mask to be heard properly in a chippie.

I feel the tide of public opinion might be starting to turn on this nonsense.

 

[Richard Scott]

Been out on a train based trip around Liverpool and Leeds over past two days. General compliance on masks was reasonable but lots of groups not doing it. One total flower almost had a meltdown in Huddersfield as she had to walk past us in the open air and we had removed masks. Had to sit opposite a woman on a TPE train and she looked like she was going to have a meltdown also and moved, what is happening, I thought masks were supposed to instill confidence? They were ensuring masks were worn on Leeds station, even though 185s were allowed to stand belch out copious amounts of noxious fumes. Quite a number of non wearers but not my place to judge. Must admit was damn uncomfortable having to wear one for most of the day. Had to take a breather on Leeds station, BTP requested I wear it but after explaining was allowed to leave it off. Was annoyed at notices on stations saying a covering must be worn on stations. Many not complying with that one. Northern saying eating and drinking not allowed on trains, we tended to ignore that one too. Not challenged on either of those.

 

[DB]

Our waster of a leader, rather than back down when he gets it wrong, digs his heels in further. In spite of the enhanced Hancock fines, mask compliance seemed lower today...

That's one of the problems driving this whole paranoid situation.

The other is that they listen to those who shout loudest, and recently that has been the very vocal maskivist lobby.