Go North West

[M803UYA]

The Stagecoach opco I worked at bought a former municipal operation some years ago. They imposed their normal terms and conditions for anyone joining from that date onwards, and the inheirited staff retained their municipal terms and conditions.

Given the rate of staff turnover, it took 18 months for the 'new terms and conditions' to apply to 60% of the staff.

I don't see why GNW wouldn't apply the same principle here. Other parts of Go Ahead have done so and they have also withstood strike action.

If GNW is doing well at upsetting it's staff (they seem to be doing well with the union) it won't take too long for said 'new' terms to apply to most of the operation. I'd be interested to know what enhanced terms First were paying staff compared to lower cost operations - is it something like a pension scheme, or just a higher rate of pay, or fixed hours which mean a lot of make up pay in duties and rosters? What is the rate of staff turnover at GNW, compared to other operations? Can't say Manchester would be a lovely peaceful place in which to drive buses, so one imagines it's the traditional set up where people get trained by the company, work their training bond and bale through the most convenient time of exit onto coaches/lorries etc.

As for the buy out of conditions.... I've no idea what Terms and Conditions those drivers are on and what the average take home is like, in comparison to the market rate? Are Go Ahead trying to get somewhere near the going rate so that they might be better placed if/when franchising comes to Manchester, less they be undercut by someone else? The union are making their play about the £5k bung being wiped out in 2.5 years by the £2k p.a. cut in pay (so their maths works out). The firm want to buy out the terms and conditions and they're not going to give money for nothing, and it will need a reasonable payback period. I'm sure the union know that and it's part of their positioning.

 

[Alexbus12]

There seemed to have been a protest outside Go North Wests depot today, exits were blocked and buses couldn't leave. It caused quite some disruption to their routes this morning.

 

[Statto]

Reading twitter, seems like a protest over the suspension of a Union rep

 

[Alexbus12]

Another protest occurred at the depot this week, with Police called to disperse the protestors.

It's also being claimed that 477 drivers have been given 45 days notice to accept the new terms or have their contracts terminated..

 

[M803UYA]

Another protest occurred at the depot this week, with Police called to disperse the protestors.

It's also being claimed that 477 drivers have been given 45 days notice to accept the new terms or have their contracts terminated..

How many drivers work at GNW in total, and what terms and conditions are they losing compared to new starters?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How many drivers work at GNW in total, and what terms and conditions are they losing compared to new starters?

Press reports said c.500 so assume that's all of them.

The headline figure is that there's a £2000 a year cut from buying out archaic practices such as payments for destination blinds, dead shifts etc. For that they are proposing paying each driver £5000. That's a 2.5 year payback which is quite long, however.....

....intriguingly, there's a proposal to realign the sickness scheme. Now, without knowing the scheme, there's probably a load of hidden costs that this will address and so the payback will be a lot shorter.

 

[JetBlast]

After all this happening I should imagine they will loose loads of these staff anyway.

 

[carlberry]

Press reports said c.500 so assume that's all of them.

The headline figure is that there's a £2000 a year cut from buying out archaic practices such as payments for destination blinds, dead shifts etc. For that they are proposing paying each driver £5000. That's a 2.5 year payback which is quite long, however.....

....intriguingly, there's a proposal to realign the sickness scheme. Now, without knowing the scheme, there's probably a load of hidden costs that this will address and so the payback will be a lot shorter.

It's almost like Go Ahead have found that, far from being buying some bargain that could be transformed into a cash cow with a new livery they've bought something that's a money pit that no amount of polishing is going to make a difference to in an area where the local authority is planning to compulsorily purchase the only real asset so they've decided that screwing the staff is the only option they've got.

 

[Alexbus12]

It's almost like Go Ahead have found that, far from being buying some bargain that could be transformed into a cash cow with a new livery they've bought something that's a money pit that no amount of polishing is going to make a difference to in an area where the local authority is planning to compulsorily purchase the only real asset so they've decided that screwing the staff is the only option they've got.

You think they got it at a bargain? Bolton was a bargain for Diamond, not so sure about Queens Road though. It was what, nearly £12 million? For a loss making network, a fleet which is knackered and a depot which is falling to bits.

 

[markymark2000]

I would still like to know how many of the protesters were drivers and how many were completely unrelated to the company and just general trade unionists because they don't like private companies.
Secondly, I would be interested to know exactly how many drivers support union action and is this just a case of unions making a mountain out of a molehill since unions always fight for more and more money with less work so it goes against everything that a union stands for. I think the fact the union supports dead shifts and these archaic practises shows just how out of touch unions are with real life.


GoAhead and it's management don't seem that bad on face value and seem very good with a willingness to expand the depot. If GoAhead really wanted to do the drivers over, they would not be paying out £5k. To me (admittedly an outsider), it seems like they want to work with employees but are being realistic that people can't keep being paid for work they aren't doing (and rightly so, why should they be paid for work they aren't doing. Any private company with half a brain cell would agree with that).

 

[M803UYA]

Press reports said c.500 so assume that's all of them.

The headline figure is that there's a £2000 a year cut from buying out archaic practices such as payments for destination blinds, dead shifts etc. For that they are proposing paying each driver £5000. That's a 2.5 year payback which is quite long, however.....

....intriguingly, there's a proposal to realign the sickness scheme. Now, without knowing the scheme, there's probably a load of hidden costs that this will address and so the payback will be a lot shorter.

I would presume the union issues arise from the sickness scheme, rather than payments for time spent changing destination blinds - the latter is outmoded as every bus presumably now has an electronic destination screen. Interesting one for the Union to push back on. To me that would be a basic productivity improvement.
Are dead shifts where a driver is starting in one location and finishing in another? I can see why there'd be an issue there if so.
An easier get out for GNW would be to draw a line on a date where all drivers employed after it were subject to new terms and conditions, thus reducing the numbers of people on the 'existing' terms. Factor in staff turnover and within a few years the company achieves its objectives that way. Stagecoach presumably did this with it's acquired operations from First Manchester back in 2012.

 

[markymark2000]

Are dead shifts where a driver is starting in one location and finishing in another? I can see why there'd be an issue there if so.
An easier get out for GNW would be to draw a line on a date where all drivers employed after it were subject to new terms and conditions, thus reducing the numbers of people on the 'existing' terms. Factor in staff turnover and within a few years the company achieves its objectives that way. Stagecoach presumably did this with it's acquired operations from First Manchester back in 2012.

Dead shifts were mentioned by Nigel Featham I think as basically drivers being rostered for duties which never took a bus out.
I can see the appeal of drawing a line and forcing new employees onto different contracts but that is what makes me thing that GNW are genuinely trying to help existing staff.
I think a potential line for GNW to go down is to say, new employees on the new contracts and if anyone wants to voluntarily move onto these new contracts, you will be given the £5k. Then you will have more people on the new contracts as some existing employees might want the money and be happy on the new contracts. Much faster way of doing things and people who choose not to change contracts then work off your theory of staff turnover.

Stagecoach is very different, most Stagecoach depots are on different pay and conditions. Without going too much into details, there are plenty of example where old operators Ts&Cs are still in place in Stagecoach depots.

 

[Geeves]

While its a big expense in the short term for Go Ahead, once they have offered out the bags of gold what does the union have to bargain with in the future? Of course put to a vote lots of drivers will happily take the bung, its happened on the railway every time something like this comes up the union loses that bit more bargaining power, so rightly they are going to fight anything that changes the status quo. I am sure the destination blind figure isnt a big one but when you add it up over the year its going to be worth it. No doubt the management have worked out what the average bonus was with all the little add ons and raised it slightly, but once its gone its gone.

 

[M803UYA]

I'm familiar with the different terms and conditions in place at Stagecoach - I worked for one opco which took over a municipal operation and they introduced their typical terms and conditions from a specific date. Anyone employed after that date was on the new terms, the existing staff retained their old terms. Given the rate of turnover in that particular depot, it took 18 months for 60% of the drivers to be on those new terms - I am guessing 10 years on that it will be closer to 100%. Those existing terms drivers might have worked a separate rota, but I don't recall if they did or not.

It sounds like there is a minimum guaranteed payment at GNW for a shift which would be standby/spare and that is fairly typical of the industry. Whether that is generous compared to other companies I don't know as I don't work there and the union's press releases don't mention the figures.

We also don't know the rate of turnover at GNW, whether that is typical of industry averages, or higher, or lower. I can't imagine Manchester being a pleasant place in which to drive buses, so I would assume there is a high turnover of staff.

All of which would help GNW in their quest to save on drivers wage costs. It hardly sounds like a lovely place in which to work...

Dead shifts were mentioned by Nigel Featham I think as basically drivers being rostered for duties which never took a bus out.
I can see the appeal of drawing a line and forcing new employees onto different contracts but that is what makes me thing that GNW are genuinely trying to help existing staff.
Stagecoach is very different, most Stagecoach depots are on different pay and conditions. Without going too much into details, there are plenty of example where old operators Ts&Cs are still in place in Stagecoach depots.

 

[Boo_]

What they really doing is cutting spare drivers so now have to drive so no getting home early. They can`t drop trips if late so will get time in lou or overtime. and sickness will be cut and I bet Sunday pay and bank holiday will be made to standard hrs. now due to Tupe they can within 2 years change terms if company is losing money. That the key it losing money yes and the money owed is to Go ahead plc but it still owned so they can battle all they want they will just all be offered new terms or bye bye it not hard to replace drivers they will just use temps for now.

 

[mic]

loads of B7 single decks back in use inculding 66868 which was on disposals list also there is a bus that has been tracking as 37289 the said bus 37289 is withdrawn for scarp and would have been 3211

 

[Boo_]

Queens Road depot CONSULTATIVE BALLOT RESULT
Do you wish to proceed to a full industrial Action ballot
94% Yes
6% No

Not looking good can see a big strike

 

[ddhecks]

Queens Road depot CONSULTATIVE BALLOT RESULT
Do you wish to proceed to a full industrial Action ballot
94% Yes
6% No

Not looking good can see a big strike

Do you know what the turnout was?

 

[M60lad]

When will the Ballot for Industrial Action take place?

 

[Alexbus12]

Another protest outside the depot today. Buses unable to leave the depot again.

 

[Boo_]

The people who are protesting outside the depot are not GNW staff

 

[markymark2000]

The people who are protesting outside the depot are not GNW staff

Which makes it worse. People not involved in the situation protesting for what they want while stopping thousands of people from getting to work. I wish GNW would shame these people. If the workers strike, that's upto them and as long as it's done legally, not a lot that can be done however these trade unionists illegally blocking the road and stopping thousands of people getting around Greater Manchester is just bonkers. If anything, they are going to lose the public's support. The only people I can see right now who are supporting these trade unionists are people associated with Labour (as anything which is associated with private companies is often bashed by the party and it's associates) and other trade unionists. Arguably 99% of which don't know anything that is going on and merely poking in for 'solidarity' while not knowing the full story and simply reading whatever biased information is sent out by the union.

As I've said on a few platforms, I'd love to hear the FULL story as the Union's are known for making up rubbish to suit their agenda.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the Union's are known for making up rubbish to suit their agenda

As are employers.

Striking costs money. Lots of money. It's not a decision people take lightly. If they do strike it's normally because they've lost faith in their employer to treat them fairly.

Isolated by being the only one not on furlough seems an odd accusation? And yes, I get emails during the late evening... I don't worry about them until the following morning and if it's asking me to be somewhere where I can't be for a meeting (e.g. can you attend a scoping meeting in Arbroath at noon?), I politely explain the situation.

That, of course, assumes that the people sending the emails are doing it from a neutral position.

I've been bullied out of a job (at the homelessness charity Shelter, no less) by having unreasonable demands placed on me, including very late emails demanding I do something very early the next day then getting it used against me when I couldn't do it. So I'm not so quick to dismiss the complaint. Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As are employers.

Striking costs money. Lots of money. It's not a decision people take lightly. If they do strike it's normally because they've lost faith in their employer to treat them fairly.



That, of course, assumes that the people sending the emails are doing it from a neutral position.

I've been bullied out of a job (at the homelessness charity Shelter, no less) by having unreasonable demands placed on me, including very late emails demanding I do something very early the next day then getting it used against me when I couldn't do it. So I'm not so quick to dismiss the complaint. Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

Indeed, there are two sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in between. As a former union rep and as a manager, I've seen both sides. Full-time officials aInd management are often different sides of the same coin.

I do recognise the issue of constructive dismissal and people being targeted. I've seen it done to others by particularly odious individuals so I do know what you mean. In this instance, this is a union rep representing their members and that has certain protections. Hence my comments.

 

[Alexbus12]

Another protest this morning at the depot, buses delayed and the police called..

Unite have put a statement out too:

Unite, Britain's biggest union, has launched an international campaign to stop the owners of the Manchester bus company Go North West from using Covid 19 as cover for making savage cuts to bus drivers' pay and conditions, while victimising and gagging a Unite union representative.
Unite general secretary, Len McCluskey has written to Go Ahead Group's CEO David Brown to warn him that Unite will be using all available resources to provide "immediate assistance to our members".
"In addition to industrial action this will mean exposing your company’s behaviour to all of your stakeholders, partners and associates. This will include mobilising all of our allies and contacting our significant political network in the Nordic countries, Germany and Australasia."
Despite continuing to make millions in profits, Go North West's parent company, Go-Ahead is trying to use COVID 19 as cover to make savage cuts to bus drivers' pay, terms and conditions in Manchester. The company is intending to ‘fire’ the entire workforce to get what they want and then ‘rehire’ those that agree to accept inferior contracts. At the same time management is trying to ‘gag’ and sack Colin, a Union Rep who refused to agree the company’s demands.
Unite is calling on the company to stop 'fire & rehire’, stop the bullying and stop the cuts and enter into constructive negotiations with the drivers' union Unite. The drivers are currently being consulted on industrial action.
The company is demanding that drivers accept cuts to terms and conditions, including changes to their scheduling agreement that will cost each driver £3,500 per year on average, an unpaid increase in working hours and slashing sick pay arrangements. But Go Ahead PLC is a profitable company. The company expects its overall operating profit for the year ending June 27 2020 to be between £63m to £75m. There is no need to cut the pay and conditions of workers. This is being done out of greed - purely to increase profit.
After refusing to sign away the terms and conditions of his members, union Rep Colin, is being threatened with the sack on trumped up charges. As the only union Rep not ‘furloughed’, Colin was singled out and repeatedly, bullied by senior managers who wanted him to agree cuts without talking to his members. As part of Colin’s suspension notice the company included a ‘gagging order’, banning him from speaking to anyone who worked for Go Ahead including family members.
Unite executive officer, Sharon Graham said: "Despite continuing to make millions in profits, Go head are trying to use COVID 19 to ‘fire and rehire’ their drivers and make savage cuts to pay, terms and conditions in Manchester. The company has targeted, bullied and victimised our union rep to try to bulldoze through its plans. This is the tip of the iceberg. If Go Ahead get away with this in Manchester they will try and roll-out ‘fire and rehire’ elsewhere. Unite will not allow bad employers to use COVID 19 to attack their workforce.
"Go North West's managing director Nigel Featham has put the company on course for an unnecessary conflict. His actions could lead to lasting damage to the reputation of Go Ahead both throughout this country and overseas. Our message to the company is fair and simple - drop the disciplinary action against our union representative, drop your ‘fire & rehire’ threat and get around the negotiating table. Unite will not let profitable firms like Go Ahead use the pandemic as cover for cuts."

Unite launches campaign to stop Go Ahead Group using COVID 19 as cover to slash pay and conditions

Unite launches campaign to stop Go Ahead Group using COVID 19 as cover to slash pay and conditions

unitetheunion.org

 

[LOL The Irony]

The people who are protesting outside the depot are not GNW staff

So they've been shipping outsiders into a place currently under local lockdown? How is this not national news? Well at least we know mccluskey isn't bluffing when he says unite will use all available resources.

 

[Tetchytyke]

this instance, this is a union rep representing their members and that has certain protections.

In theory. In this case the union rep has been suspended on allegations the rep claims are baseless, following on from several months of inappropriate use of emails and the furlough issue. Put it together and you certainly start to see an issue.

We all know that Employment Tribunals are toothless, especially with Constructive Dismissal. A bit of cash- and it's never that much- doesn't replace a job.

Nigel Featham, of course, has history. He was in regional charge of Arriva when County Durham had that prolonged strike last year, again with allegations of bullying from Unite. So he certainly has form for "bull in a china shop" negotiating tactics.

As you say, the truth is normally in the middle as press releases are a negotiating tool. But the idea people would give up a day's pay for no reason, as so many on here seem to think with rants about "unionists", is stupid.

 

[M803UYA]

I still don't understand what GNW's (inherited) sick pay arrangements are, and what they're seeking to introduce in place of the current arrangements. If that means drivers who are ill, driving vehicles because they don't want to lose pay then I can imagine the union having a valid issue and their standing their ground.

What GNW wants to achieve could be achieved by a different approach - simply draw the line on a fixed date, and everyone employed after that date is on the revised terms, whilst protecting the existing drivers. Over time, there would be less and less of those people (they are dismissed, leave, or retire). Stagecoach were very adept at reducing the numbers of people on such conditions - the opco I worked at continually sent inspectors down to the depot en masse and, surprise surprise, they kept on finding things wrong....

The fire and rehire approach could massively backfire on GNW in any event. If I was confronted with an employer who cared so little about me, I'd go and find someone else to work for. Earlier in my career I'd have felt some sense of loyalty, but after being poorly treated by a number of bus and coach companies these days that loyalty starts and ends at my paycheck. Interfere with that if you like, I'll find someone else to drive for, no one wants to do the job for the rubbish wages. If my scheduling skills are so poorly valued, I'll take them to someone who wants them, plenty of employers around.

Go Ahead could find themselves with a massive shortage of drivers in their Manchester operations as the drivers say 'stuff you' and leave, be interesting to have agency people flat out in two locations.

 

[markymark2000]

In theory. In this case the union rep has been suspended on allegations the rep claims are baseless, following on from several months of inappropriate use of emails and the furlough issue. Put it together and you certainly start to see an issue.

We all know that Employment Tribunals are toothless, especially with Constructive Dismissal. A bit of cash- and it's never that much- doesn't replace a job.

Nigel Featham, of course, has history. He was in regional charge of Arriva when County Durham had that prolonged strike last year, again with allegations of bullying from Unite. So he certainly has form for "bull in a china shop" negotiating tactics.

As you say, the truth is normally in the middle as press releases are a negotiating tool. But the idea people would give up a day's pay for no reason, as so many on here seem to think with rants about "unionists", is stupid.

Purely to put my view to rest, I did slate the strike and all that until it came out that the drivers had voted in favour of industrial action. If drivers go for a strike or whatever they choose to do, sobeit, that is their choice as a union member. As long as it's done legally, that's fine, no issue.
What I do have a problem with however is people who have nothing to do with the situation (in this case Stockport Trade Council) sticking their beak in to cause disruption to thousands of people. By and large, they are reading what a union tells them and (like the majority of us), only know that side of the story. Further to that, the action that is being taken isn't lawful, it is blocking a public road without any prior notice. If you as an employee are not happy with what is proposed, you do what you have to do within the law. 3rd parties who, lets be honest, exist just there to annoy private companies, need to keep out of the situation as it will make it worse for the drivers. Lost revenue from these 'protests' will mean there is less chance of negotiation and slowly, it will create more issues.

I am not ranting at drivers who are well within their right to protest however the 3rd party unionists doing illegal protests are the issue.

 

[Alexbus12]

Nigel Featham has put comment to the Manchester Evening News, the last paragraph is quite something though.

Go North West managing director, Nigel Featham said: "For us it’s a simple choice between continuing to sustain annual losses or improving our performance to a point where we eventually return the business back into profit.
"Ironically, this investment will help us to deal better in the long-term with the fallout from Coronavirus.
"The alternatives entail making redundancies, cuts to services and having unhappy employees on our hands.
"This way, everybody is a winner, nobody loses out, and we can continue to grow and expand the business in the future, safeguarding jobs in uncertain times."

He added: "Without these changes, the Go North West business and its operation of bus services from Queen’s Road depot, is not viable and ultimately, the business will have to close."

The bus driver dispute which has led to two days of disruption in Manchester

Protesters have gathered outside the Go North West depot in Cheetham Hill for two days

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk