LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[4REP]

Eversholt and Wabtec are mentioning exams for the remaining LNER sets one is an interior saloon exam is this the new concept for refurbishment?

 

[DB]

Eversholt and Wabtec are mentioning exams for the remaining LNER sets one is an interior saloon exam is this the new concept for refurbishment?

Sounds like a C6 exam.

 

[crablab]

As per https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/0...up-to-2023-as-overhaul-contracts-awarded.html ...

Eversholt Rail has announced that they have extended the lease of seven Inter-City 225 trains with London North Eastern Railway.

The lease now runs up to Summer 2023, with an extension possible to Summer 2024.

This extension includes ten Class 91 locomotives, including 91101 ‘Flying Scotsman’, 91107 ‘Skyfall’, 91109 ‘Sir Bobby Robson’, 91110 ‘Battle of Britain Memorial Flight’, 91111 ‘For The Fallen’, 91114 ‘Durham Catherdral’ and 91130 ‘Lord Mayor of Newcastle’.

An additional two Class 91 locomotives are expected to be contracted, providing LNER with five spare locomotives.

Eversholt has also awarded Wabtec with a contract to complete overhauls of the LNER IC225 fleet at their Doncaster facility.

The locomotives will receive a G exam, which includes an overhaul of their bogies, gearboxes, wheelsets, cardan shafts, compressors and traction motors. A number of improvements are also planned to be completed.

The Mark 4 fleet will have an OH1 exam, which will include the overhaul of bogies, couplers, doors and an interior saloon exam.

This work will be completed in January 2022.

Steve Timothy, Stakeholder Director, Eversholt Rail says, “We are pleased to continue to work with both LNER and Wabtec, to provide a safe and high-quality train experience for East Coast Main Line rail passengers.”

Andy Derbyshire, Group Managing Director, Wabtec Faiveley UK, says “The award of this contract is excellent news for Wabtec Faiveley UK and our facility at Doncaster. We have developed a longstanding involvement with the IC225 fleet having worked on the vehicles since 2006. This continued collaboration has also been supported by the great working relationship we enjoy with both Eversholt Rail and LNER, which contributes to the overall success of contracts and projects like this”.

...locomotives get a G exam and the carriages an OH1.

 

[jopsuk]

seven rakes of coaches and 10-12 locos is a fairly damning indictment of the expected reliability!

 

[E27007]

It could be a forecast of the reliability, on the other hand with so few takers for the 91 plus coach rakes 1) they may have paid a bargain price for the lease. 2) a political move spiking the guns of any operator who might fancy their hand at operating a rival service on the ECML? 3) A reserve pool in case of any hitches with the Azuma fleet in the first two or three years of service.
The announcement states the 'G' and 'OH1' overhauls will be completed by Wabtec by January 2022, is it a hint there will be plenty of years life left in the fleet beyond 2024?

 

[43 302]

This video might be of interest to some. It shows a 9 car azuma rescuing another 9 car. Hence the lack of need for a thunderbird.

https://twitter.com/railcamlive/status/1304825636800933898?s=19

 

[Rhydgaled]

seven rakes of coaches and 10-12 locos is a fairly damning indictment of the expected reliability!

12 locos for 7 sets (5 spare locos) does seem a bit generous, but as E27007 says maybe Eversholt offered a good deal on the lease. Alternatively, what is the timescale for ETCS rollout on the ECML currently? If it's due to happen after the ramp up in LNER services then maybe the extra locos are to allow for some to be in for major work.

 

[43096]

12 locos for 7 sets (5 spare locos) does seem a bit generous, but as E27007 says maybe Eversholt offered a good deal on the lease. Alternatively, what is the timescale for ETCS rollout on the ECML currently? If it's due to happen after the ramp up in LNER services then maybe the extra locos are to allow for some to be in for major work.

The plan was to go down to 10 locos / 7 sets, with 91119/124 being the ones to go off lease. I would surmise - others will know for sure - that they remain in the fleet for now as cover for the G exam programme.

 

[Helvellyn]

Maybe LNER was offered a good deal by Eversholt to keep 12 locos and maybe it was good enough to let them ditch the DB 'Thunderbird' contract and keep a 91 at say Doncaster and King's Cross to rescue any IC225 set that hits difficulties? Yes, diversions away from the wires would be an issue but guess we'll find out at some point.

 

[E27007]

Regarding Thunderbirds, Is it possible to couple a 91 set to an Azuma? Do the Azumas carry a special set of adaptors for coupling to a 91 in an emergency clear-the-line situation?

I'm not ruling out the ETCS roll out in the future as the coup-de-grace of the 91, for when GSMR rolled out, Network Rail had to foot the bill for the supply and installation of the GSMR systems into locos, NR are the owners of theGSMR hardware in locos and if a GSMR set fails at depot preparation causing a 'cape', NR pickup the tab, not the TOC.
Will the ETCS be the same, NR will pay for supply and installation of the hardware? Eversholt having their 91's upgraded to ETCS compatibility free of charge?

 

[SteveyBee131]

Regarding Thunderbirds, Is it possible to couple a 91 set to an Azuma? Do the Azumas carry a special set of adaptors for coupling to a 91 in an emergency clear-the-line situation?

91s and Azumas have completely different coupling systems.

Azumas can rescue each other if their own emergency engines fail.

91s would need another loco of some description.

(As far as I'm aware)

 

[DB]

Maybe LNER was offered a good deal by Eversholt to keep 12 locos and maybe it was good enough to let them ditch the DB 'Thunderbird' contract and keep a 91 at say Doncaster and King's Cross to rescue any IC225 set that hits difficulties? Yes, diversions away from the wires would be an issue but guess we'll find out at some point.

The 67s are sometimes needed for dewirement incidents - a 91 would be pretty useless in those circumstances if the power was off in the section containing the failed train!

91s and Azumas have completely different coupling systems.

They do, but that wasn't what the original poster asked. His question was whether they carry coupling adapters - to which I don't know the answer, but it's reasonably likely as most units tend to have them for emergencies. That's for them to be dragged though normally - allowing them to drag a different type of train wouldn't be a normal scenario.

 

[800001]

The 67s are sometimes needed for dewirement incidents - a 91 would be pretty useless in those circumstances if the power was off in the section containing the failed train!



They do, but that wasn't what the original poster asked. His question was whether they carry coupling adapters - to which I don't know the answer, but it's reasonably likely as most units tend to have them for emergencies. That's for them to be dragged though normally - allowing them to drag a different type of train wouldn't be a normal scenario.

Azumas have emergency couplings in either (or both) coach A/M in the entrance where the accessible toilet is.

 

[DB]

Interesting to see that essentially all of the york stoppers are now diagrammed as ic225 sets, i guess with them coming off the scottish diagrams lner can fully utilise them on a selected service. Inever understood however why they took them off the scottish routes and dedicated them to the york stoppers and some of the Leeds services. Surely you would want them on the services with the least stops because they have worse acceleration than the azumas and therefore if they were on the express sevice they wouldnt have to accelerate/decelerate as often. The only reason i could think of is that they wouldn want a failed train stuck at berwick etc.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Newark Northgate around 0900 on 14/09/2020

Train information at Newark Northgate around 0900 on 14/09/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If they can keep to the diagrams with their acceleration, there's not really a problem. Keeping them at the southern end of the route may also allow them to reduce the number of thunderbirds (which are hired in, so won't be cheap).

 

[DB]

right so its more of a decision based on the reliability of the 91s then

Not necessarily - the point is that if they do fail then they need a thunderbird to recover them, whereas an IEP can in theory shift itself out of the way, or couple to another one. I can't see anything illogical about keeping them to the shorter routes.

 

[hwl]

Maybe LNER was offered a good deal by Eversholt to keep 12 locos and maybe it was good enough to let them ditch the DB 'Thunderbird' contract and keep a 91 at say Doncaster and King's Cross to rescue any IC225 set that hits difficulties? Yes, diversions away from the wires would be an issue but guess we'll find out at some point.

Aren't the rest potentially spoke for as regards regearing for export and freight use hence might as well throw in the other 2 even if they end up as Xmas Trees?

 

[DB]

Aren't the rest potentially spoke for as regards regearing for export and freight use hence might as well throw in the other 2 even if they end up as Xmas Trees?

Not that I know of - still a number stored in Doncaster. Possibly more might be exported, but given the economic downturn there may well be less interest in acquiring extra locos abroad. There are already a couple being used for spares.

 

[AndrewP]

Are there any plans for repainting / revyniling these trains as they are looking rather scruffy?

 

[800001]

Interesting to see that essentially all of the york stoppers are now diagrammed as ic225 sets, i guess with them coming off the scottish diagrams lner can fully utilise them on a selected service. Inever understood however why they took them off the scottish routes and dedicated them to the york stoppers and some of the Leeds services. Surely you would want them on the services with the least stops because they have worse acceleration than the azumas and therefore if they were on the express sevice they wouldnt have to accelerate/decelerate as often. The only reason i could think of is that they wouldn want a failed train stuck at berwick etc.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Newark Northgate around 0900 on 14/09/2020

Train information at Newark Northgate around 0900 on 14/09/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Timings haven't altered since azumas started so mk4 can still keep to time.
Putting on York/Leeds services means only Leeds and KGX crews need to maintain knowledge, where as would be very hard to keep Newcastle and Edinburgh crews competency up.
Also Newcastle and Edinburgh thunderbird finishes end of September.

 

[Seehof]

But adds another complexity if there is major service disruption.

 

[swt_passenger]

yes i guess the azumas are more versatile and can get themselves out of a failure. i was just wandering because i was thinking in terms of reducing journey times on the york stoppers and in general the services with more stops you would want the azumas dedicated to those routes where they would have more of an impact on journey times due to better acceleration/deceleration, therfore leaving the 91s to services with less stops where having an azuma on those routes wouldnt have such an impact on journey times as there is less acceleration/deceleration to be done.

Your logic about relative performance is sound.

The original “Plan A” of VTEC, as proposed around 2015, was to shorten a few Mk4 sets to match 801 performance, and use them on the Edinburgh fasts. I expect they’re on about Plan D or E by now though...

 

[43096]

Your logic about relative performance is sound.

The original “Plan A” of VTEC, as proposed around 2015, was to shorten a few Mk4 sets to match 801 performance, and use them on the Edinburgh fasts. I expect they’re on about Plan D or E by now though...

The original plan was for retention of a small number of either Mark 4 or HST sets.

 

[hwl]

yes i guess the azumas are more versatile and can get themselves out of a failure. i was just wandering because i was thinking in terms of reducing journey times on the york stoppers and in general the services with more stops you would want the azumas dedicated to those routes where they would have more of an impact on journey times due to better acceleration/deceleration, therfore leaving the 91s to services with less stops where having an azuma on those routes wouldnt have such an impact on journey times as there is less acceleration/deceleration to be done.

York stoppers follow behind other trains with fewer stops hence performance matters less. The ultimate aim is to add a stop to most of the other faster services.

 

[Ianno87]

York stoppers follow behind other trains with fewer stops hence performance matters less. The ultimate aim is to add a stop to most of the other faster services.

Performance matters quite a bit - departing Kings Cross at xx06 they're minimum headway behind the xx03 Leeds. But on reaching York they're minimum headway in front of the xx30.

Get a bit of acceleration in and you create an xx27 path.

 

[CW2]

I see the first Skipton - Kings Cross has been a 91 recently. Is this now diagrammed? If so, on what days? Thanks in advance.

 

[4REP]

Interesting to see that essentially all of the york stoppers are now diagrammed as ic225 sets, i guess with them coming off the scottish diagrams lner can fully utilise them on a selected service. Inever understood however why they took them off the scottish routes and dedicated them to the york stoppers and some of the Leeds services. Surely you would want them on the services with the least stops because they have worse acceleration than the azumas and therefore if they were on the express sevice they wouldnt have to accelerate/decelerate as often. The only reason i could think of is that they wouldn want a failed train stuck at berwick etc.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Newark Northgate around 0900 on 14/09/2020

Train information at Newark Northgate around 0900 on 14/09/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Deltics all over again

 

[Steddenm]

I see that the Glasgow to King's Cross service is pathed as a 225 set but I guess this will be an Azuma?

 

[NoMorePacers]

I see that the Glasgow to King's Cross service is pathed as a 225 set but I guess this will be an Azuma?

View attachment 83607

Glasgow hasn't been worked by 225 sets since December, so it'll be an Azuma.

 

[43 302]

Pathing has nothing to do with the booked traction.

 

[melena]

I heard that the eight Class 91s at GBRf Doncaster RMT have moved to Doncaster Wood Yard. Does anyone know when they went?