Ticket clerks have offered me combinations of tickets instead of one through ticket where a through ticket was available

[Argyle 1980]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/split-ticket-connecting-train-delayed-court-action.203895

Shocking - well done for pursuing it.

Not saying this doesn't happen with other TOCs but I've only ever heard of or experienced it with XC. Also from personal experience and excluding when I split cross London journeys which are broken once obviously to take advantage of the 6 month advance booking window by some long distance operators like GWR, then XC is usually the only operator I ever have the need to split tickets on, and the only operator i have to do it with for journey that doesn't involve a change of train (Plymouth to anywhere north or Taunton)

A couple of the booking clerks I deal with at Plymouth station know every single split point on their routes, and although they are not obliged to offer it when someone asks for a point to point XC ticket, they will however do it and split it all for you if you ask.

One exception to this is day returns to Bristol which they often do offer somebody, even if they don't ask for it; that's a pretty good indicator that their fares structure is seriously flawed, and as we already know, seriously outdated.

 

[father_jack]

Not saying this doesn't happen with other TOCs but I've only ever heard of or experienced it with XC. Also from personal experience and excluding when I split cross London journeys which are broken once obviously to take advantage of the 6 month advance booking window by some long distance operators like GWR, then XC is usually the only operator I ever have the need to split tickets on, and the only operator i have to do it with for journey that doesn't involve a change of train (Plymouth to anywhere north or Taunton)
A couple of the booking clerks I deal with at Plymouth station know every single split point on their routes, and although they are not obliged to offer it when someone asks for a point to point XC ticket, they will however domit and split it all for you if you ask.
One exception to this is day returns to Bristol which they often do offer somebody, even if they don't ask for it.
That's a pretty good indicator that their fares structure is seriously floored, and as we already know, seriously outdated.

Which creates conflict for other colleagues who don't know the whys amd wherefores, and which also could be construed as misconduct. I'd watch out as GWR retail managers tune in here, one in particular.

 

[RobertsN]

It'd be a really poor type of manager to bring that up against a member of staff. If what is being purchased is legal and the "extra effort" of Customer Service makes passengers feel cared for (since they've saved on their fare), then those staff should be congratulated rather than punished. Isn't a happy "client" what it is all about?
The problem is the fare structure, not that passengers or staff know how to get a cheaper (but valid) ticket.

 

[Haywain]

It'd be a really poor type of manager to bring that up against a member of staff. If what is being purchased is legal and the "extra effort" of Customer Service makes passengers feel cared for (since they've saved on their fare), then those staff should be congratulated rather than punished. Isn't a happy "client" what it is all about?
The problem is the fare structure, not that passengers or staff know how to get a cheaper (but valid) ticket.

If selling tickets in that way becomes a breach of impartial retailing obligations, then it’s a very serious matter and needs to be dealt with properly. The staff need to be aware that their enthusiasm to provide good service to their customers can have unintended consequences. I would expect it would be dealt with through performance procedures rather than disciplinary, so would not be resulting in ‘punishment’.

 

[father_jack]

If selling tickets in that way becomes a breach of impartial retailing obligations, then it’s a very serious matter and needs to be dealt with properly. The staff need to be aware that their enthusiasm to provide good service to their customers can have unintended consequences. I would expect it would be dealt with through performance procedures rather than disciplinary, so would not be resulting in ‘punishment’.

Why should the railway be different. The price is the price. If I go into a shop for something that's X price and the assistant sold me the makings of it for 50% of X and told me to put together myself they'd get the sack. If the customer knows what tickets they want in order to get a cheaper price fair play to them but there has to be some appreciation of where someone's pay comes from and a ticket office already decimated by the change to other fulfillment methods, let alone by covid doesn't need to give the industry excuses to close it down by saps cutting its income !!!

 

[221129]

It'd be a really poor type of manager to bring that up against a member of staff. If what is being purchased is legal and the "extra effort" of Customer Service makes passengers feel cared for (since they've saved on their fare), then those staff should be congratulated rather than punished. Isn't a happy "client" what it is all about?
The problem is the fare structure, not that passengers or staff know how to get a cheaper (but valid) ticket.

This would be the same ticket office that sells invalid splits off their own back. Real good customer service when the passenger gets charged again to rectify the Ticket clerk's mistakes.

 

[RobertsN]

This would be the same ticket office that sells invalid splits off their own back. Real good customer service when the passenger gets charged again to rectify the Ticket clerk's mistakes.

I don't recall mentioning "invalid splits". My point was based on "valid" tickets.

 

[221129]

I don't recall mentioning "invalid splits". My point was based on "valid" tickets.

But they aren't always selling valid splits. And that's ignoring the fact that there are very strict rues about impartial retailing for a reason.

 

[packermac]

But they aren't always selling valid splits. And that's ignoring the fact that there are very strict rues about impartial retailing for a reason.

Well someone is going to need to explain the railways definition of impartial retiling because if I walk up to a ticket window I expect to be offered the lowest legal fare for the journey. I except some booking office staff may not know or care about the lowest price ticket but assuming they do who is this "impartiality" supposed to benefit.
I may be misreading your post but you seem to be implying that the railway should not be offering it passengers the best fares.

 

[221129]

Well someone is going to need to explain the railways definition of impartial retiling because if I walk up to a ticket window I expect to be offered the lowest legal fare for the journey. I except some booking office staff may not know or care about the lowest price ticket but assuming they do who is this "impartiality" supposed to benefit.
I may be misreading your post but you seem to be implying that the railway should not be offering it passengers the best fares.

If you walk up and ask for a combination of tickets then that's what you should be sold. If you just ask for a return to XYZ then you should be sold the cheapest valid through ticket for the journey you wish to make.

 

[Haywain]

Well someone is going to need to explain the railways definition of impartial retiling because if I walk up to a ticket window I expect to be offered the lowest legal fare for the journey.

In simple terms, impartiality in this respect refers to being impartial to Train Operating Companies by not favouring the fares of one company over another. The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement specifies what you can expect, and that is the lowest available fare for the through journey requested - so, if you request at Plymouth a return ticket to Birmingham New Street you should be offered a through fare and not a split.

 

[robbeech]

This would be the same ticket office that sells invalid splits off their own back. Real good customer service when the passenger gets charged again to rectify the Ticket clerk's mistakes.

I agree, and I also agree with the points about impartiality. However, and I feel it’s pretty important. I must admit, We don’t seem to get posts on here about a ticket office selling an invalid split (not requested by the passenger) before, although I may well have missed them. I have however seen *several* posts where VALID split tickets have been rejected for a myriad of made up reasons by various operators.
And this is just plain refusal of travel. The minute you incorporate missed connections and delay repay into the equation and you’ll find the disputes section is pretty rife with these sorts of things.

Real good customer service when the passenger gets charged again to rectify the guard’s mistake.

 

[yorkie]

....that's a pretty good indicator that their fares structure is seriously flawed, and as we already know, seriously outdated...

CrossCountry agree with you; they'd like the cheaper intermediate fares to be abolished, to ensure you pay the higher price.

It'd be a really poor type of manager to bring that up against a member of staff. If what is being purchased is legal and the "extra effort" of Customer Service makes passengers feel cared for (since they've saved on their fare), then those staff should be congratulated rather than punished. Isn't a happy "client" what it is all about?

Believe me it happens!

Savvy passengers should simply use a ticket splitting site (and why not? you can get all tickets in one PDF* and a seat selector for all** TOCs!)

* - where fare-setting TOCs have made e-tickets available
** - where seat reservations are available

The problem is the fare structure...

Yes, some train companies are very keen to change the structure to ensure that longer distance journeys cost more than at present. See existing threads on the subject to see what I mean!

 

[infobleep]

I was once told about a cheaper fare to London. This was some years ago now. They didn't sell me the combination just like that but mentioned it before selling it.

Is that also considered wrong?

 

[yorkie]

I was once told about a cheaper fare to London. This was some years ago now. They didn't sell me the combination just like that but mentioned it before selling it.

Is that also considered wrong?

What do you mean by "a cheaper fare"? What did you ask for? What were you offered?

 

[Deerfold]

Why should the railway be different. The price is the price. If I go into a shop for something that's X price and the assistant sold me the makings of it for 50% of X and told me to put together myself they'd get the sack.

I've seen people in WHSmiths be told that the bottle of water they're buying would be free if they bought a (cheaper) newspaper on several occasions.

 

[Haywain]

I've seen people in WHSmiths be told that the bottle of water they're buying would be free if they bought a (cheaper) newspaper on several occasions.

What has that got to do with impartial retailing and the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement?

 

[robbeech]

I think it relates more to the customer service aspect whereby the member of staff helps the customer by saving them money. Something WHSmith likely frown upon the same way as the railway frowns upon offering the cheapest fare by not using a thru ticket, or indeed, in many cases, not offering the cheapest fare unless someone specifically asks for it.

 

[Haywain]

I think it relates more to the customer service aspect whereby the member of staff helps the customer by saving them money. Something WHSmith likely frown upon the same way as the railway frowns upon offering the cheapest fare by not using a thru ticket, or indeed, in many cases, not offering the cheapest fare unless someone specifically asks for it.

But WH Smith are not regulated as the railway companies are, so it really isn't a good comparison. Whereas if the WHS staff member told the punter that the water was cheaper at Tesco next door...

 

[Deerfold]

What has that got to do with impartial retailing and the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement?

Because someone else compared the railways with other shops. This may well be a poor comparison. But if they're going say the railways should be like other retailers, I can find examples of other retailers not selling at "the price".

I'm surprised you didn't quote the message I quoted as that where the comparison with non-rail retailers started.

 

[Haywain]

I'm surprised you didn't quote the message I quoted as that where the comparison with non-rail retailers started.

Perhaps I missed a bit of context in your post in the same way that I think you missed a bit of context in the post by @father_jack.

 

[onlinespotting]

I was always advised to split a Stoke on Trent to Leeds ticket at Man Picc by the ticket office

 

[infobleep]

What do you mean by "a cheaper fare"? What did you ask for? What were you offered?

I simply asked for a return to London and they said if I split my ticket at x station it would be cheaper and I agreed to the combination. So they didn't just go and sell 2 return tickets without first asking me.

 

[yorkie]

I was always advised to split a Stoke on Trent to Leeds ticket at Man Picc by the ticket office

I simply asked for a return to London and they said if I split my ticket at x station it would be cheaper and I agreed to the combination. So they didn't just go and sell 2 return tickets without first asking me.

Both of these are examples of non-impartial retailing, and if the employer became aware of the issue, the employee might get into trouble.

Anyone who is savvy who wants to save money who is reading this can simply use a split ticketing website to get a better price.

I was always advised to split a Stoke on Trent to Leeds ticket at Man Picc by the ticket office

I simply asked for a return to London and they said if I split my ticket at x station it would be cheaper and I agreed to the combination. So they didn't just go and sell 2 return tickets without first asking me.

Both of these are examples of non-impartial retailing, and if the employer became aware of the issue, the employee might get into trouble.

Anyone who is savvy who wants to save money who is reading this can simply use a split ticketing website to get a better price.

As for comparisons with other industries, it's very difficult to do this as the rail industry has various safeguards in place. In general those safeguards protect passengers; train companies would rather they were removed, so that they can charge a higher price than the price paid by savvy passengers who use split ticketing websites.

Analogies are only really good for humorous comparisons, or potentially for moralistic purposes, but comparisons completely fall down when it comes to the legal and contractual position, due to the unique structure of the rail industry.

Anyone who wants to see an end to split ticketing should be careful what they wish for: If CrossCountry had their way, we'd be paying the higher fare, always.

 

[onlinespotting]

It was much cheaper to buy a stoke to man picc and man picc to Leeds saver return it was a good thing as i saved money- I wouldn’t have known about it at the time

 

[35B]

Both of these are examples of non-impartial retailing, and if the employer became aware of the issue, the employee might get into trouble.

Anyone who is savvy who wants to save money who is reading this can simply use a split ticketing website to get a better price.

As for comparisons with other industries, it's very difficult to do this as the rail industry has various safeguards in place. In general those safeguards protect passengers; train companies would rather they were removed, so that they can charge a higher price than the price paid by savvy passengers who use split ticketing websites.

Analogies are only really good for humorous comparisons, or potentially for moralistic purposes, but comparisons completely fall down when it comes to the legal and contractual position, due to the unique structure of the rail industry.

Anyone who wants to see an end to split ticketing should be careful what they wish for: If CrossCountry had their way, we'd be paying the higher fare, always.

What is the definition of "impartial" in this context? I'm struggling to understand why offering a split would in itself compromise the exercise of impartiality.

I fully appreciate that there are many cases where offering a split could be to the customer's disadvantage by preventing them from making the planned journey and/or leaving them at risk of falling foul of ticketing rules.

 

[yorkie]

there is some info about impartial retailing here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...is-it-to-whom-does-it-apply.58495/post-944160 though the questions it answers are slightly different to those posed in this thread

 

[Ianno87]

It was much cheaper to buy a stoke to man picc and man picc to Leeds saver return it was a good thing as i saved money- I wouldn’t have known about it at the time

The analogy would be going into a supermarket, picking up two of an item and then being told at the checkout "they're on offer, you can get a third one for free"

see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...is-it-to-whom-does-it-apply.58495/post-944160

Surely all that says is a ticket that meets the customer's needs? If the passenger is happy to travel between Stoke and Leeds via Manchester, then their needs are met.

 

[Haywain]

What is the definition of "impartial" in this context?

See my post #11.

 

[londonbridge]

The analogy would be going into a supermarket, picking up two of an item and then being told at the checkout "they're on offer, you can get a third one for free"

I work in convienience and if the customer comes to the till with two parts of the meal deal amongst their shopping I will often ask if they want the deal and advise them of the additional cost ("you can add the bottle of pop for another 20p) or the potential saving, if they have the botle of pop and the sandwich which on their own cost more than the deal, I'll tell them 'if you take the meal deal and add in the crisps/snack your bill will reduce by 40p". I'll also let them know if they have the wrong item-they've got the sandwich and snack but the wrong drink-"you know this ones not meal deal, you need to change the drink if you want it". sometimes they'll go back and get the third item and sometimes they'll say "no thanks, mate, I'm fine", etc.