How will COVID be remembered?

[lkpridgeon]

The year when the poop hit the fan? The year when democracy and freedoms was an afterthought? Realistically it'll be a passing remark in the history books. A hey this happened. At most a 1 mark history exam answer.

What I hope will be remembered is:

• Locking down to save lives just costs other lives and has a side effect of serious economic damage
• There's mental health issues galore with no one in sight to provide help (unless you've already attempted to do the unthinkable).
• The NHS almost never has enough capacity for the winter.
• Politicians tend to put their parties first before their actual beliefs/those of where they represent
• There was a magic money tree, we just weren't shaking hard enough
• Scientists are like lawyers, if you ask 3 of them the same question you'll get 9 different answers.
• You should be careful what you wish for (especially if you've a nice house and garden) as redundancy could still be on the table.

 

[Cowley]

The year when the poop hit the fan? The year when democracy and freedoms was an afterthought? Realistically it'll be a passing remark in the history books. A hey this happened. At most a 1 mark history exam answer.

What I hope will be remembered is:

• Locking down to save lives just costs other lives and has a side effect of serious economic damage
• There's mental health issues galore with no one in sight to provide help (unless you've already attempted to do the unthinkable).
• The NHS almost never has enough capacity for the winter.
• Politicians tend to put their parties first before their actual beliefs/those of where they represent
• There was a magic money tree, we just weren't shaking hard enough
• Scientists are like lawyers, if you ask 3 of them the same question and you'll get 9 different answers.
• You should be careful what you wish for (especially if you've a nice house and garden).

I agree with a lot of what you say.
It just feels like we’re so beaten down with all of it that we’ve accepted far more than we should have done where it comes to being told what we should or should not be doing in our daily lives.
Personally I can’t imagine us ever getting back to the way we lived before, and I’m planning a new reality for the next few years rather than trying to picture us going back to how it was because I think that that’s permanently gone now, no matter what we might hope for...

 

[Gloster]

Two slightly odd comments:

I was in Waterstones today and in the queue three pensioners got into a oh-were-you-first-no-you-were-no-I’m-sure-you-were conversation. After they had sorted themselves out one of them started saying that once a vaccine was found his two-year old grandson would say whenever they went into a shop, “Grandad, you haven’t got your mask on.” There is going to be a group of children who, even though it is only going to be a year or so (we hope), will see the current arrangements as normality for quite a while.

Tuesday or Wednesday last week I was walking along a passage in town and there was a dim-looking, thirty-ish couple standing there. As they didn’t move as I approached I started to head for the gap of two or three feet between them and the wall. Once he had realised what I was doing, the male broke into a somewhat garbled outburst about how I should keep two metres away and not come close and was I trying to kill him with the - so it sounded - catona virus and so on. I suspect that there are people like that who will not be able to put it behind them.

 

[sjpowermac]

In a "national emergency" situation, yes. However, law enforcement should still be left to the police as far as possible.

In particular, I despise vigilantism (with one or two very specific exceptions, for example some of the paedophile stings which do seem to achieve some success and seem to be handled professionally, though even this *should* be being carried out by the police).

So originally you were pro-authoritarianism and calling people out, but now you are not.

That is indeed a notable switch.

If you have a moment, perhaps you could let us know the point at which you changed? Was it the point at which you realised there was no personal risk to yourself, or was there some more altruistic reason?

@sjpowermac you make an interesting point; I think this is down to a change in circumstance, knowledge/information available and other factors.

In the early stages of the first lockdown, many people (not at all unreasonably, given the Government messaging at the time) genuinely thought that a short sharp lockdown would make the virus go away and acted accordingly and expected others to act accordingly.

I do have a lot of respect for anyone who mistakenly believed that narrative, but has since seen the light, and is no longer pro-lockdown.

Many examples of this can be found; indeed I have seen many forum members openly state state they were originally pro-lockdown (based on the messaging and information - or lack of - available at the time) but have since changed their stance. I applaud that.

What I can't forgive is those who are not prepared to change their stance in the face of overwhelming evidence. But people in that category are diminishing daily...

Agreed.
We were all searching for information back then and we played it safe because it was the right thing to do at the time. As new information became available over the following months many of us re-evaluated some of the risks (personally I, along with my family had no choice but to have to work right through all of this).
Changing positions isn’t a sign of weakness.

I don’t believe that I’ve said that changing positions is a sign of weakness.

The poster I have quoted has made numerous comments that seemed to me to be quite authoritarian. In addition, as late as June, they were still calling out various groups of people, some examples are quoted below.

I think the biggest delusion is not so much with the distancing, but thinking that paying people furlough would lead to people patiently staying at home and following guidance, as opposed to some treating it as several months of bonus bank-holiday-style leisure time to be enjoyed to the maximum extent.

and

Another point which springs to mind, compliance was perhaps better once things like pubs were forced to close. We all remember the scenes of packed pubs during the “advisory” period.

 

[DustyBin]

@sjpowermac you make an interesting point; I think this is down to a change in circumstance, knowledge/information available and other factors.

In the early stages of the first lockdown, many people (not at all unreasonably, given the Government messaging at the time) genuinely thought that a short sharp lockdown would make the virus go away and acted accordingly and expected others to act accordingly.

I do have a lot of respect for anyone who mistakenly believed that narrative, but has since seen the light, and is no longer pro-lockdown.

Many examples of this can be found; indeed I have seen many forum members openly state state they were originally pro-lockdown (based on the messaging and information - or lack of - available at the time) but have since changed their stance. I applaud that.

What I can't forgive is those who are not prepared to change their stance in the face of overwhelming evidence. But people in that category are diminishing daily...

I’ve certainly changed my stance. Back in March, all we had to go on was the information coming out of China. I feared we were facing a new virus which was SARS-like or even Ebola-like in its virulence (remember the bodies in the streets?). My initial reaction when it became clear that the virus wasn’t going to be contained was that emergency measures would be required to prevent very large numbers of deaths (remember the dodgy modelling?). I therefore supported the original lockdown, it seemed a proportionate response. Gradually, over months rather than weeks, as more and more information became available, my stance changed. It wasn’t that I simply became fatigued or fed up, it was that it became clear (to me) that we were pursuing the wrong strategy; in other words the cure was worse than the disease. I’ve absolutely no problem with admitting any of this, I would like to think I’ve been fairly rational and I suspect many others have followed a similar path.

 

[sjpowermac]

I’ve certainly changed my stance. Back in March, all we had to go on was the information coming out of China. I feared we were facing a new virus which was SARS-like or even Ebola-like in its virulence (remember the bodies in the streets?). My initial reaction when it became clear that the virus wasn’t going to be contained was that emergency measures would be required to prevent very large numbers of deaths (remember the dodgy modelling?). I therefore supported the original lockdown, it seemed a proportionate response. Gradually, over months rather than weeks, as more and more information became available, my stance changed. It wasn’t that I simply became fatigued or fed up, it was that it became clear (to me) that we were pursuing the wrong strategy; in other words the cure was worse than the disease. I’ve absolutely no problem with admitting any of this, I would like to think I’ve been fairly rational and I suspect many others have followed a similar path.

I agree with much of what you have put there. The scenes coming from Italy during the early stages of the pandemic were very concerning and indeed the virus was very much an unknown quantity.

I have to say, I’ve changed my stance on several issues, at least in part from reading sections of this forum. Again, I’ll be honest and say that I’m too busy with work to necessarily seek out all of the information on each topic.

Taking masks as an example, I was initially broadly ‘pro’, in large part because I hoped the government had done their research on my behalf and that masks would help us to avoid what I felt was an almost inevitable second wave of infections. Whilst I’m not ‘anti-mask’ I do try to see the whole picture and certainly I’ve paused for thought on the matter.

 

[yorksrob]

.

I agree with a lot of what you say.
It just feels like we’re so beaten down with all of it that we’ve accepted far more than we should have done where it comes to being told what we should or should not be doing in our daily lives.
Personally I can’t imagine us ever getting back to the way we lived before, and I’m planning a new reality for the next few years rather than trying to picture us going back to how it was because I think that that’s permanently gone now, no matter what we might hope for...

Nudge by nudge, bit by bit we will push back towards normality.

Lockdown seemed like a necessary extraordinary action when the virus was an unknown and I reluctantly supported it at the time.

However, I have never seen it as a viable long term strategy as SAGE and their ilk seem to think of it.

 

[greyman42]

uesday or Wednesday last week I was walking along a passage in town and there was a dim-looking, thirty-ish couple standing there. As they didn’t move as I approached I started to head for the gap of two or three feet between them and the wall. Once he had realised what I was doing, the male broke into a somewhat garbled outburst about how I should keep two metres away and not come close and was I trying to kill him with the - so it sounded - catona virus and so on. I suspect that there are people like that who will not be able to put it behind them.

Well we had oddballs and eccentrics in society pre covid so i expect we will still have them when the restrictions are lifted.

 

[bramling]

So originally you were pro-authoritarianism and calling people out, but now you are not.

That is indeed a notable switch.

If you have a moment, perhaps you could let us know the point at which you changed? Was it the point at which you realised there was no personal risk to yourself, or was there some more altruistic reason?

Discussing something on here is not "calling out", that is actions like putting up unpleasant signs in villages and the like, which isn't something I condone or have condoned.

I wouldn't say my views have switched as such. Like others, my view is that back in March we didn't really know what we were dealing with, so certainly extreme caution was prudent. With hindsight this may have been over-cautions, though on balance I'd say that with what we knew (and didn't know) then it was probably the right approach, though if we were able to re-run time knowing what we know now then probably not. It's not correct to say there's "no personal risk", as there's clearly elements of risk to anyone. However if has become quite clear over time that the risks posed by lockdown measures are on balance worse than those posed by Covid itself, and yes some of the well-evidenced and logical arguments on here have helped to persuade that view!

 

[Ianno87]

Discussing something on here is not "calling out", that is actions like putting up unpleasant signs in villages and the like, which isn't something I condone or have condoned.

Didn't you post about telling some tube mask enforcers directly that they're jobs weren't (in your opinion) necessary?

 

[bramling]

Didn't you post about telling some tube mask enforcers directly that they're jobs weren't (in your opinion) necessary?

Yes you do indeed remember correctly. You may also recall I said at the time that whilst I generally heavily dislike that sort of thing, I make an exception for elements of Covid precisely because of the negative precedent this all sets.

As an aside, it was pleasing to step into a Tube train this evening, 10 people in the car and *none* wearing masks (and they weren't exempt as most could be seen sheepishly glancing around keeping an eye out for any enforcement). Hopefully that's an encouraging sign that masks are one element of this which *will* be consigned to the bin.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How will I remember it?

As a bally great nuisance.

 

[Richard Scott]

How will I remember it?

As a bally great nuisance.

Think I'll just try to forget the whole thing!

 

[bramling]

Think I'll just try to forget the whole thing!

I hope that’s largely going to be what happens in the medium term.

I want to be back to proper normal, no silly Sunak schemes next summer to tinker with things, no going mad to make up, no people thinking it’s now discourteous not to wear masks, etc.

 

[C J Snarzell]

One of the aspects of Covid that will roll on for quite a few years to come is the various public enquiries that will get underway once the Country is able to return to some sort of normality again.

Hundreds of families of those who lost their lives to Covid are calling for action over the government's handling of the epidemic. I can see Boris Johnson and key cabinet figures being held to task over their decision making, long after BJ has left Downing Street.

There is also the economy to think about and the unemployment scale which is going to loom over the UK for at least the next decade.

I'm also anticipating China will be challenged in the near future about the origins of the virus. Thankfully, Donald Trump is going next month so at least we won't see a nuclear war.

CJ

 

[bramling]

One of the aspects of Covid that will roll on for quite a few years to come is the various public enquiries that will get underway once the Country is able to return to some sort of normality again.

Hundreds of families of those who lost their lives to Covid are calling for action over the government's handling of the epidemic. I can see Boris Johnson and key cabinet figures being held to task over their decision making, long after BJ has left Downing Street.

There is also the economy to think about and the unemployment scale which is going to loom over the UK for at least the next decade.

I'm also anticipating China will be challenged in the near future about the origins of the virus. Thankfully, Donald Trump is going next month so at least we won't see a nuclear war.

CJ

Yes I wouldn’t be surprised for it to turn into an Iraq-style situation where there is a stream of enquiries over a few years. It will be interesting to see how the likes of BJ handle that, especially if he’s grilled in more forensic detail on some of the scientific aspects.

 

[Crossover]

I was in Waterstones today and in the queue three pensioners got into a oh-were-you-first-no-you-were-no-I’m-sure-you-were conversation. After they had sorted themselves out one of them started saying that once a vaccine was found his two-year old grandson would say whenever they went into a shop, “Grandad, you haven’t got your mask on.” There is going to be a group of children who, even though it is only going to be a year or so (we hope), will see the current arrangements as normality for quite a while.

A similar thought came over me on Saturday - I was stood in a queue awaiting entering a shop in my local town, in front was a mother with her kids, the youngest of whom (I would guess maybe a couple of years old) was over her shoulder. The child waved at me, so I smiled and waved back. Except I already had my mask on in anticipation of entering the shop so therefore any facial expression will have been lost

I’ve certainly changed my stance. Back in March, all we had to go on was the information coming out of China. I feared we were facing a new virus which was SARS-like or even Ebola-like in its virulence (remember the bodies in the streets?). My initial reaction when it became clear that the virus wasn’t going to be contained was that emergency measures would be required to prevent very large numbers of deaths (remember the dodgy modelling?). I therefore supported the original lockdown, it seemed a proportionate response. Gradually, over months rather than weeks, as more and more information became available, my stance changed. It wasn’t that I simply became fatigued or fed up, it was that it became clear (to me) that we were pursuing the wrong strategy; in other words the cure was worse than the disease. I’ve absolutely no problem with admitting any of this, I would like to think I’ve been fairly rational and I suspect many others have followed a similar path.

I'm in a similar position to yourself

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hmmm....

First of all, I think that the human race, collectively and as individuals, are remarkably resilient and adaptable. We will adapt going forward despite the challenges that we all face. Nonetheless, we are all susceptible to not being as resilient as we hope; in recent years, talking about mental illness has become much easier (though the situation is still far from perfect) and we must all look to support those individuals, both on a one to one basis and collectively as a society.

In my opinion, this moment will be regarded as a watershed moment but not for the reasons mentioned earlier. This clarion cry against the onward creep of authoritarianism, regarding this as some means of getting the populace to acquiesce to subservience to the state is faintly ridiculous; that you can have a welter of discussion on this forum and elsewhere is testament to that. Notwithstanding that I thought the great threat in civil liberties was facial recognition so promotion of face masks seems to run contrary to that. As a society, we provide more information in terms of a digital footprint and data provision; if you don't wish to arm the authorities with information, then going off grid is the only choice! I think in Boris, you have perhaps the most libertarian PM I can recall. He's also one of the most unprincipled and inept poltical leaders in my lifetime.

The lasting changes of this period is that it has turbo-charged or promoted far faster some of the changes that were clearly happening anyway. Most visibly, this is in the field of the impact on traditional retailers who have seen trade collapse; this has been happening for the last 15-20 years and, as in any recession, the sickest firms will die. That will indelibly affect our town and city centres and especially those mid-ranking towns; Newcastle, Leeds or York have sufficient critical mass of commerce, tourism etc to shrink yet survive but not in towns like my native North East such as Darlington or Stockton on Tees. Despite the obvious direction of travel, we've seen continued retail property development when really, towns need to be shrinking their retail footprint.

The other obvious move will be in working from home. Whilst some people will want to be in the office 5 days a week, or have a job that cannot be done at home, the number of firms where home working is an option was already growing. Now we're seeing, as in my partner's firm, that WFH would never have been countenanced. Yet necessity and the march of technology means that expensive office space may no longer be required in the same amount. Undoubtedly, that impacts on public and private transport use...already noticeably quieter on a Friday before Covid. Moreover, as we've seen elsewhere, we might see unscrupulous property firms expand the conversion of redundant office buildings and the impact on social fabric.

Linked to all of this is the economic picture. All countries have experienced drops in GDP but the UK has faired much worse than almost anyone else https://ourworldindata.org/covid-health-economy - There will undoubtedly be some bounce back but with a Brexit looming (of what particular variety, we don't know), we will have a longer way back than other countries. Whether Boris will be PM when we get to 2024 will remain to be seen; it may well be Rishi?

It would be easy to either dismiss this as merely an episode in history or to suggest it's a huge event. Both are true; the immediacy and effect felt for the generations directly impacted by it will be acutely felt. However, it may be that in 50 years' time, when most of us are dead or dying, that it has as much impact or relevancy as Spanish Flu, World Wars, the Great Depression, the oil shocks or the miners' strike.

 

[sjpowermac]

Yes you do indeed remember correctly. You may also recall I said at the time that whilst I generally heavily dislike that sort of thing, I make an exception for elements of Covid precisely because of the negative precedent this all sets.

As an aside, it was pleasing to step into a Tube train this evening, 10 people in the car and *none* wearing masks (and they weren't exempt as most could be seen sheepishly glancing around keeping an eye out for any enforcement). Hopefully that's an encouraging sign that masks are one element of this which *will* be consigned to the bin.

So once again, ‘calling out’ is ok when it’s you who is doing the calling out!

 

[farleigh]

So once again, ‘calling out’ is ok when it’s you who is doing the calling out!

I admire @bramling for being able to adapt his position as situations change. Many people seem unable to do this

 

[jtuk]

Hopefully it is remembered with a memorial to those who lost their lives as a result of the biggest crime in generations, and those that perpetrated it are brought to justice. Actual Covid itself will be remembered as "meh"

 

[C J Snarzell]

I do hope that the Government will adopt better contingency planning for the future in how this Country will handle any new viruses and epidemics that arise.

It's fair to say that something like Covid only happens once in a lifetime so thankfully all of us on this forum should never see anything like this again.

However, my point is that future generations should have the comfort of being bettered prepared if anything like this breaks out in 2119!!!!

The government should at least implement something not dissimilar to a Terrorism threat assessment whereby stronger measures are brought in if a certain number of the population are struck by any contagious virus.

CJ

 

[Richard Scott]

The government should at least implement something not dissimilar to a Terrorism threat assessment whereby stronger measures are brought in if a certain number of the population are struck by any contagious virus.

CJ

Why? If that virus isn't particularly dangerous then little needs to be done otherwise we end up with the scenario we've had this year where it becomes an obsession even when we realise it isn't as bad as first thought. Remember the cure may be worse than the disease as we're experiencing now.

 

[yorksrob]

One positive thing I hope I'll remember from this year, is what an absolute pleasure it's been to travel by train.

With no overcrowding and staff generally allowing reasonable routing, it has been very good.

 

[Richard Scott]

One positive thing I hope I'll remember from this year, is what an absolute pleasure it's been to travel by train.

With no overcrowding and staff generally allowing reasonable routing, it has been very good.

Unfortunately not, the whole mask thing makes it very unpleasant so hardly done it unless necessary.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately not, the whole mask thing makes it very unpleasant so hardly done it unless necessary.

Yes, I've sort have gotten by with masks.

To be honest, sitting on the train with them, I don't find a problem, it's having to negotiate stations with them on, with my glasses steamed up that's a real ball ache. Whoever it was that changed the mask legislation from applying on trains, to applying all over stations, deserves to go down in history as a proper plonker (for plonker, substitute with something rude).

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes, I've sort have gotten by with masks.

To be honest, sitting on the train with them, I don't find a problem, it's having to negotiate stations with them on, with my glasses steamed up that's a real ball ache. Whoever it was that changed the mask legislation from applying on trains, to applying all over stations, deserves to go down in history as a proper plonker (for plonker, substitute with something rude).

Know it's getting off topic but how long has it been mandatory to wear them on a station? Thought it was only if station was covered?

 

[bramling]

Know it's getting off topic but how long has it been mandatory to wear them on a station? Thought it was only if station was covered?

It sort of is, however many of the TOCs seem to have gone for putting signs up asking people to wear them whilst on the station - enforcement of which is variable.

Of course, what happens in practice round here is off they come once people board the (DOO) trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Know it's getting off topic but how long has it been mandatory to wear them on a station? Thought it was only if station was covered?

There was definitely a change.

Can't remember if it was "on train, to on train and covered station" or

"on train and covered station to on train and whole station".

 

[C J Snarzell]

One positive thing I hope I'll remember from this year, is what an absolute pleasure it's been to travel by train.

With no overcrowding and staff generally allowing reasonable routing, it has been very good.

That's one thing I hope we never see again - train carriages and platforms completely gridlocked by commuters. Not being able to board a train because it is rammed or stood up for 90 minutes on a journey between Leeds & Manchester. I never want to experience that again.

CJ