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Brexit matters

Bungle158

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As an Irish passport holder, obtained post June 2016, l am largely exempt from Brexit angst, particularly as l live abroad. However, both my state and railway pensions are paid in Sterling. I have thus become 15% poorer. The deal is a shocker, not good for the UK as it doesn't even cover the services sector. But, at least it has stopped Sterling from sliding further, for the moment.
 
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najaB

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Yup that nasty horrible EU dictating to us that we cannot use old energy inefficient cleaning equipment.
I guess @21C101 can go back to using 100W incandescent bulbs too, rather than 12W LED bulbs that give just as much light and last ten times as long.
But, at least it has stopped Sterling from sliding further, for the moment
True. Oh for the Halcyon days of £1=$2.50...
 

Journeyman

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I guess @21C101 can go back to using 100W incandescent bulbs too, rather than 12W LED bulbs that give just as much light and last ten times as long.
True. Oh for the Halcyon days of £1=$2.50...

Let's bring back hanging, scurvy, rickets, inches, shillings and the Empire while we're at it.
 

Cloud Strife

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With any luck I will soon be able to get a decent powerful vacuum cleaner again and cease having to maintain an increasingly elderly 2.4 kW one to avoid having to purchase one of the pathetically weak ones that the EU deigns to permit.
But you do realise that what the EU has done is that they've forced the producers of such equipment to produce just as powerful machines that use less power?

My latest car has 130bhp and a 1.5 litre engine, yet it uses the same amount of fuel around the city as my elderly Astra that I keep for nostalgia reasons that produces a mere 65hp through a 1.2 litre engine. On the open road, it decimates the Astra in terms of fuel economy, whether it's at 70km/h, 120km/h or (especially) at 160km/h.

The amount of energy consumed is not a direct correlation with the power of a given machine.
 

dgl

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We have to follow rules agreed between us to trade with them.

We no longer have to follow their rules to trade with each other domestically.

With any luck I will soon be able to get a decent powerful vacuum cleaner again and cease having to maintain an increasingly elderly 2.4 kW one to avoid having to purchase one of the pathetically weak ones that the EU deigns to permit.
:rolleyes:
There is a really good reason why the EU stepped in on vacuum cleaners as it started to become all about wattages and not about actual cleaning performance. Cleaners were being built with stupidly high wattages primarily due to stupid bagless designs that either wasted a lot of airflow on multiple cyclones or needed the extra power as the dust separation was so poor that the filters clogged near instantly.
Vacuums only really started having 1000w+ motors in the late 80's and even then it was generally only cylinder vacuums that had the extra power as they generally had no assistance from a rotating brush roll for carpets.

A modern Henry/Hetty with it's 620w motor compared to the previous 1.2kW motor has very little difference in suction as they've done more than just fit a lower wattage motor, plus if you really wanted a 1.2kW model then there are plenty on the 2nd hand market that will last for years. My Gran's 800W Henry is from 1987 and yet not only still works fine it also has more than enough suction power.

Personally a vacuum such as an 620W Henry (for primarily hard floor, thin carpet, or carpet where a rotating brush roll is not recommended) or for carpets a SEBO Felix (700w suction + 120w? for the ET-1 powerhead) will probably clean better than any 1kW+ vacuum, esp. if it a far eastern bagless one.
 

nlogax

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For years I've been looking for these fabled Brexiteers who've been desperate to save bendy fruit, keen to protect the Great British Sausage while overly enthusiastic about inefficient white goods. I thought they were a leftwing media invention, but it seems I was wrong.

So is this about sovereignty or vacuum cleaner envy? Either way these arguments are pathetic. It's just bananas..and I don't give a damn if they're bendy or otherwise.
 

21C101

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For years I've been looking for these fabled Brexiteers who've been desperate to save bendy fruit, keen to protect the Great British Sausage while overly enthusiastic about inefficient white goods. I thought they were a leftwing media invention, but it seems I was wrong.

So is this about sovereignty or vacuum cleaner envy? Either way these arguments are pathetic. It's just bananas..and I don't give a damn if they're bendy or otherwise.
I'm in good company.

"James Dyson suggests leaving the EU over vacuum cleaners​

Dyson founder claims that German vacuum cleaner manufacturers are using their clout with the EU to skew the energy efficiency ratings system in their favour.."


 

nlogax

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I'm in good company.

"James Dyson suggests leaving the EU over vacuum cleaners​

Dyson founder claims that German vacuum cleaner manufacturers are using their clout with the EU to skew the energy efficiency ratings system in their favour.."


Er..what do you want? A medal?
 

alex397

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Would that be the same James Dyson who's b****ed off to Singapore since Brexit?
Yes the very same! Another prominent Brexit supporter jumping ship.

Dyson moved the HQ from Wiltshire to Singapore.
 

21C101

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:rolleyes:
There is a really good reason why the EU stepped in on vacuum cleaners as it started to become all about wattages and not about actual cleaning performance. Cleaners were being built with stupidly high wattages primarily due to stupid bagless designs that either wasted a lot of airflow on multiple cyclones or needed the extra power as the dust separation was so poor that the filters clogged near instantly.
Vacuums only really started having 1000w+ motors in the late 80's and even then it was generally only cylinder vacuums that had the extra power as they generally had no assistance from a rotating brush roll for carpets.

A modern Henry/Hetty with it's 620w motor compared to the previous 1.2kW motor has very little difference in suction as they've done more than just fit a lower wattage motor, plus if you really wanted a 1.2kW model then there are plenty on the 2nd hand market that will last for years. My Gran's 800W Henry is from 1987 and yet not only still works fine it also has more than enough suction power.

Personally a vacuum such as an 620W Henry (for primarily hard floor, thin carpet, or carpet where a rotating brush roll is not recommended) or for carpets a SEBO Felix (700w suction + 120w? for the ET-1 powerhead) will probably clean better than any 1kW+ vacuum, esp. if it a far eastern bagless one.
Not with a cut from 2400W to 900W trying to pick up dog hairs and the like from carpets.

You just end up hoovering more often a d for longer. The other thing they did to meet those regs was narrow the tube everything is sucked up so the things are forever getting clogged.

As to bulbs. I had already changed most of mine to Compact Flourescent or LED before they started interfering. For some uses (eg close up model railway work) I prefer the flicker free light of an incandescent which is an option I no longer have. LEDs are far better than CFL but stil not totally flicker free. So yes I resent that too and took great pleasure in getting round it by obtaining rough service bulbs.

Conversely the freedom to live in Bulgaria is of absolutely no interest to me.
 
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Dave1987

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Not with a cut from 2400W to 900W trying to pick up dog hairs and the like from carpets.

You just end up hoovering more often a d for longer. The other thing they did to meet those regs was narrow the tube everything is sucked up so the things are forever getting clogged.

As to bulbs. I had already changed most of mine to Compact Flourescent or LED before they started interfering. For some uses I prefer the flicker free light of an incandescent which is an option I no longer have. So yes I resent that too and took great pleasure in getting round it by obtaining rough service bulbs.

Conversely the freedom to live in Bulgaria is of absolutely no interest to me.
Like I said you had better get BoJo to recommission those power plants taken off the grid or build new ones very very quickly as if the UK suddenly starts using more energy intensive equipment in households around the country you will probably end up with power cuts. The grid has a small amount of reserves but not enough for mass usage of high wattage appliances suddenly being plugged in.
 

edwin_m

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My primary reason for wanting Brexit was to place power back in the hands of people who have to win an election every five years from a small pool of about 60,000 voters. In crude terms they are bullyable, a few hundred letters on a contentious matter can sway them, two or three thousand will often panic them. Wheras the unelected Commissioner in Brussels is almost immune from public opinion.
Is this just error-ridden piffle like most of your posts, or are you acknowledging that the vast majority of the 60-odd million in the UK have no influence over choice of government? From which it follows that any decisions of the British government have no democratic legitimacy. And I don't see that a government that caves in to lobby groups is particularly democratic either.
Personally I think it the ability of a government to form a secure majority and get on with the job, although not without risks, is a benefit, as it enables serious and drastic reform to happen in a constitutonal not revolutionary way.

For The Queen to intervene directly, she would need to be sure to have public and armed forces backing. Legally she still has the Royal Prerogative powers exercised by Prime Ministers, it is only a convention that she does not exercise them. An example would be a government attempting to repeal the Represenation of the People Act to keep themselves in power indefinitely.
The Queen felt unable to reject the advice to prorogue Parliament, despite it being obvious to everyone (and even admitted afterwards by the perpetrators) that she was being lied to and the actual reason was to suppress debate on Brexit. This shows that the royal prerogative has eroded to irrelevance through lack of use. When the Supreme Court stopped the progrogation, our government pronounced it undemocratic and inserted into its manifesto a commitment that they probably hope will allow them to curtail its powers without objection from the Lords (made feeble by its own undemocratic nature). You may think it's good to dismantle the remaining checks and balances to allow "serious and drastic reform" to take place. I call it a dangerous path towards dictatorship.
 

21C101

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Like I said you had better get BoJo to recommission those power plants taken off the grid or build new ones very very quickly as if the UK suddenly starts using more energy intensive equipment in households around the country you will probably end up with power cuts. The grid has a small amount of reserves but not enough for mass usage of high wattage appliances suddenly being plugged in.
Funnily enough the country is still festooned with 3kW kettles. Junckers had the common sense to suspend plans to do the same to kettles as they did to Vacuum Cleaners once the referendum was announced.

And there is such a thing as diversity in electrical supply matters. People using high energy devices for short periods of time place no more load on the grid than people using lower energy devices for longer as they don't all do it at the same time.

Is this just error-ridden piffle like most of your posts, or are you acknowledging that the vast majority of the 60-odd million in the UK have no influence over choice of government? From which it follows that any decisions of the British government have no democratic legitimacy. And I don't see that a government that caves in to lobby groups is particularly democratic either.
All MPs face an electorate of about 60,000 people. It's called a constituency.
 
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dgl

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Not with a cut from 2400W to 900W trying to pick up dog hairs and the like from carpets.

You just end up hoovering more often a d for longer. The other thing they did to meet those regs was narrow the tube everything is sucked up so the things are forever getting clogged.

As to bulbs. I had already changed most of mine to Compact Flourescent or LED before they started interfering. For some uses I prefer the flicker free light of an incandescent which is an option I no longer have. So yes I resent that too and took great pleasure in getting round it by obtaining rough service bulbs.

Conversely the freedom to live in Bulgaria is of absolutely no interest to me.
Suction is not the main factor in the removal of dog hairs, a good brushroll is and that is why most cylinder vacuums are not very good at it even with tonnes of power.
At work we use a SEBO BS36 with the stiff brush strip as the main vacuum for the removal of dog hairs and it works excellently despite being less than 1000W including the brush roll, our similarly powered SEBO Dart 1's work just as well. You should see what ibasiac on youtube managed to get up with a Henry Hound (which at most is 1248W).
 

matacaster

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I don't recall all the business failures and unemployment caused when we joined in 1973 and other EC states agriculture and industry was able to sell here without tariffs, while existing commonweath supply chains were destroyed by new tariffs (commonwealth supply chains were much more favourable to us as they complemented rather than competed head on with our manufacturing and agricultural produce like Milk and Fish).....


...being seen as anything other than an acceptable price to pay for reaching the sunlit uplands.


If someone cannot even see that sovereignty is a fundamental and serious matter, then it is difficult to find any common ground to debate the issue.

It is one thing to claim that the benefits of the EU outweigh the loss of sovereignty. For a good few undoubtably they did, just as there were many who benefitted immensely from being part of the Roman empire. (along with every other empire that has ever existed)

It is another to start from a viewpoint sovereignty is of no or little value.

My primary reason for wanting Brexit was to place power back in the hands of people who have to win an election every five years from a small pool of about 60,000 voters. In crude terms they are bullyable, a few hundred letters on a contentious matter can sway them, two or three thousand will often panic them. Wheras the unelected Commissioner in Brussels is almost immune from public opinion.

Secondly it means that the so called Supreme Court, as of Friday is no longer supreme. They became supreme as, after the Treaty of Lisbon incorporated the EUs Charter of Fundamental rights and "constitution", most rulings in judicial reviews etc were based at least in part on EU law and this "consitution", so Parliament and therefore the government could do nothing in response and had to acquiesce.

The Supreme Court had become a defacto consitutional court basing its rulings on the EUs "constitution". No more. As of Friday, parliament can pass an act voiding or reversing their decisions, and as todays events show, can do so very quickly at times.
It's not just what is happening now in EU but the future direction of travel. Many people don't like the idea of the mooted European army. Who calls the shots-generally its been Germany with the French poodles sucking up. The smaller nations in EU don't really count for much in decision making as Germany has bought them off by investing in car plants to do the donkey work while the clever bits are done in Germany, so they go along with Germany. The power in an empire rarely resides in its extremities, nearly always near its centre. Just to clarify, I like the Germans, it's a lovely country, but I want to have some semblance of say in what happens in UK, Brussels is a law unto itself and full of very greedy troughers.
 

21C101

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Suction is not the main factor in the removal of dog hairs, a good brushroll is and that is why most cylinder vacuums are not very good at it even with tonnes of power.
At work we use a SEBO BS36 with the stiff brush strip as the main vacuum for the removal of dog hairs and it works excellently despite being less than 1000W including the brush roll, our similarly powered SEBO Dart 1's work just as well. You should see what ibasiac on youtube managed to get up with a Henry Hound (which at most is 1248W).
Mine is quite capable of clearing dog hairs from awkward to get to places like the stair carpets without any attachment or brush strip, just rubbing the unattached end over it. I don't have to spend ages dehairing rotating brush strips either.
 

Journeyman

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Conversely the freedom to live in Bulgaria is of absolutely no interest to me.

I've seen everything I need to see now.

It's not just about you, is it? You've deprived in excess of 65 million people of that freedom for what are essentially trivial reasons you clearly don't even understand properly. Have you any idea how much distress, inconvenience and genuine hardship your decision has caused thousands of people already? How many opportunities will be lost in the future? All because you want a more powerful vacuum cleaner?
 

Dave1987

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Funnily enough the country is still festooned with 3kW kettles. Junckers had the common sense to suspend plans to do the same to kettles as they did to Vacuum Cleaners once the referendum was announced.

And there is such a thing as diversity in electrical supply matters. People using high energy devices for short periods of time place no more load on the grid than people using lower energy devices for longer as they don't all do it at the same time.
Your average fast boil 3Kw kettle is on load for 2mins max depending on the amount of water to heat up. Your 2Kw vacuums are going to be on load for a good deal longer than that. And on battery charging it’s a very very simple bit of maths to work out how much less impact on the grid they have. Even a MacBook charger is only 61W. So you would need 32 MacBooks charging at once in your house to match the power consumption of your vacuum cleaner. Most household battery charging equipment is far far less than that wattage. So if millions of households suddenly want their high wattage vacuum cleaners back again the grid is going to need more juice again. How the UK will meet the Paris climate agreement pledges with that I don’t know. Especially when BoJo wants loads of electric vehicles charging on the grid as well. I think your high power vacuum cleaners might slip down the priority list unless you do want power cuts.
 

Starmill

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Not with a cut from 2400W to 900W trying to pick up dog hairs and the like from carpets.

You just end up hoovering more often a d for longer. The other thing they did to meet those regs was narrow the tube everything is sucked up so the things are forever getting clogged.

As to bulbs. I had already changed most of mine to Compact Flourescent or LED before they started interfering. For some uses (eg close up model railway work) I prefer the flicker free light of an incandescent which is an option I no longer have. LEDs are far better than CFL but stil not totally flicker free. So yes I resent that too and took great pleasure in getting round it by obtaining rough service bulbs.

Conversely the freedom to live in Bulgaria is of absolutely no interest to me.
The thing I don't get is that nobody has ever promised to change regulations in the UK so that previously prohibited, less effective, and less energy efficient lighting or vacuum cleaners will be once again permitted. Indeed, it's quite likely that the government will continue to advance these regulations.

The current governing party have in the past few years got into regulating everything from plastic bags to sugary drinks, and only recently stated their intent to significantly regulate snack food, and have published a number of other proposals to regulate the sale of unhealthy food. They say they'll soon begin to regulate gas boilers in homes, and petrol and diesel cars, to the point where they're almost out of existence within a few years. How do you feel about that? Doesn't this suggest they're going to do the opposite of what you say you want?

There's another issue. Relaxing regulation only in the UK would mean that any goods which complied with future UK regulations but not EU ones wouldn't be able to be lawfully sold in Northern Ireland, or indeed possibly anywhere in the world except for the UK. Are the lightbulb and vacuum cleaner manufacturers going to specialise for a remarkably small market?

I'm afraid the problem with these ambitions is that they're clickbait headline fodder that people have convinced themselves they really believe in. The benefits are still completely illusory.
 
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samxool

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It's not just what is happening now in EU but the future direction of travel. Many people don't like the idea of the mooted European army. Who calls the shots-generally its been Germany with the French poodles sucking up. The smaller nations in EU don't really count for much in decision making as Germany has bought them off by investing in car plants to do the donkey work while the clever bits are done in Germany, so they go along with Germany. The power in an empire rarely resides in its extremities, nearly always near its centre. Just to clarify, I like the Germans, it's a lovely country, but I want to have some semblance of say in what happens in UK, Brussels is a law unto itself and full of very greedy troughers.
What EU army?
What existing EU treaty allows for the creation of an EU army?
Spoilers, there isn't one, if the EU wanted one, it would require an entirely new treaty, that every single member state would have to sign off on. If just one member state vetoed it, the whole thing would collapse. Because sovereignty.
Also, what on earth would be so bad about an EU army?
It's not like the EU is known for provocation and starting wars...
 

edwin_m

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Funnily enough the country is still festooned with 3kW kettles. Junckers had the common sense to suspend plans to do the same to kettles as they did to Vacuum Cleaners once the referendum was announced.

And there is such a thing as diversity in electrical supply matters. People using high energy devices for short periods of time place no more load on the grid than people using lower energy devices for longer as they don't all do it at the same time.


All MPs face an electorate of about 60,000 people. It's called a constituency.
A 3kW kettle is actually more efficient than a lower-powered one. It boils water more quickly (which is also what people want) so less heat is lost during the process. So it's entirely logical for a kettle to have the highest power rating that the domestic supply can support.

Increasing power in appliances like vacuum cleaners, as a substitute for improving efficiency, is another matter entirely.

Individual MPs have no power unless they are in a ruling party with a small majority of seats. And except for the few that occupy marginal seats, they can essentially do what they like and are pretty much guaranteed re-election unless they deviate from the party line enough to be thrown out. As happened to most of the competent Tories last year when they objected to the way Brexit was being delivered.
It's not just what is happening now in EU but the future direction of travel. Many people don't like the idea of the mooted European army. Who calls the shots-generally its been Germany with the French poodles sucking up. The smaller nations in EU don't really count for much in decision making as Germany has bought them off by investing in car plants to do the donkey work while the clever bits are done in Germany, so they go along with Germany. The power in an empire rarely resides in its extremities, nearly always near its centre. Just to clarify, I like the Germans, it's a lovely country, but I want to have some semblance of say in what happens in UK, Brussels is a law unto itself and full of very greedy troughers.
And now we are no longer a member of the EU, we have virtually no influence on what they do. But we are still affected by it, however much sovereignty we think we have gained.
 

class ep-09

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Is that tread “brexit matters” or “vacuum / kettle matters” now?

BTW for all the brexiters , have you ever considered that UK’s head of state is unelected ?

Have you ever casted any vote on any of the Lords or civil servants?

What EU army?
What existing EU treaty allows for the creation of an EU army?
Spoilers, there isn't one, if the EU wanted one, it would require an entirely new treaty, that every single member state would have to sign off on. If just one member state vetoed it, the whole thing would collapse. Because sovereignty.
Also, what on earth would be so bad about an EU army?
It's not like the EU is known for provocation and starting wars...


Exactly , 100% agree.

Why would you be afraid of an army that you are part of ?
 

SS4

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, but I want to have some semblance of say in what happens in UK, Brussels is a law unto itself and full of very greedy troughers.

Your vote for the EU parliament was much fairer than your vote for Westminster. The troughers in Whitehall know full well any sort of fair voting system will cost them power so they tout FPTP as a good system.

If you think your vote in the UK actually matters you're having a laugh. Did you vote for Boris? Almost certainly not. For Corbyn? Again - almost certainly not. We don't get a say in who should be head or state or head of government. How many countries do you know that don't vote directly for their leader?



All MPs face an electorate of about 60,000 people. It's called a constituency.

So you think it's ok that 60k people from a population of millions get to vote for the PM? How democratic.

On top of that the parties know this so they stand important people in safe seats where they won't lose their seat. MPs are, on paper, supposed to represent their local area but there's plenty of parachuting going on to make sure locals aren't represented by a local person or even a resident.
 

class ep-09

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Quick observation , the Freedom of Movement did not end with brexit .

It ended for UK’s nationals but not for citizens of 31 EU / EEA countries .

They can still move / work / study wherever the hell they want .

I think UK is in desperate need to enrich its gene pool, to get rid of Farages , Moggs , BoJos, and their followers .
 

21C101

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Your average fast boil 3Kw kettle is on load for 2mins max depending on the amount of water to heat up. Your 2Kw vacuums are going to be on load for a good deal longer than that. And on battery charging it’s a very very simple bit of maths to work out how much less impact on the grid they have. Even a MacBook charger is only 61W. So you would need 32 MacBooks charging at once in your house to match the power consumption of your vacuum cleaner. Most household battery charging equipment is far far less than that wattage. So if millions of households suddenly want their high wattage vacuum cleaners back again the grid is going to need more juice again. How the UK will meet the Paris climate agreement pledges with that I don’t know. Especially when BoJo wants loads of electric vehicles charging on the grid as well. I think your high power vacuum cleaners might slip down the priority list unless you do want power cuts.
That is an absurd argument. I have a 2kW heater in my sons bedroom which is on for longer than any any vacuum cleaner ever will be. I can buy a 3kW greenhouse heater for about £50 and use it all winter (got better things to do with my money but plenty others do). Somehow the national grid copes.

I get the train to work and walk to the station, have had the same car for 14 years and do about 4,000 miles a year in it.

So yes I deeply resent unelected officials in brussels telling me I cant use a powerful vacuum cleaner for an hour a week.

Nothing will happen on 2nd January (aside perhaps from ending of VAT on tampons), but I hope to see in time an end to the officious micromanagment of peoples lives, typified by the vacuum cleaner regulations, by remote unelected and unremovable technocratic officials who are only lobbyable by huge corporations.

And yes, MPs vulnerability to lobbying by ordinary constituents, particularly those in marginal constituencies, will be a significant driver, as it was for getting a referendum held in the first place. Cameron only agreed to it for fear of losing a slew of seats to Farage in the 2015 election.
 

SS4

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Nothing will happen on 2nd January (aside perhaps from ending of VAT on tampons), but I hope to see in time an end to the officious micromanagment of peoples lives, typified by the vacuum cleaner regulations, by remote unelected and unremovable technocratic officials who are only lobbyable by huge corportations.

And yes, MPs vulnerability to lobbying by ordinary constituents, particularly those in marginal constituencies, will be a significant driver .

I'm still not seeing how British MPs are somehow immune to corruption. When was the last time an MP was removed by constituents?
 

Starmill

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I hope to see in time an end to the officious micromanagment of peoples lives
Surely this doesn't seem a terribly realistic expectation though? This is from a party government that recently introduced "micromanagement" ofeverything from plastic bags to soft drinks. You'll note neither were to do with the EU...

Indeed, most people are actually either totally indifferent to or very marginally in favour of these sorts of policies. Unless you're on the look out for something to blame on someone you dislike, obviously...
 

21C101

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Surely this doesn't seem a terribly realistic expectation though? This is from a party government that recently introduced "micromanagement" ofeverything from plastic bags to soft drinks. You'll note neither were to do with the EU...

Indeed, most people are actually either totally indifferent to or very marginally in favour of these sorts of policies. Unless you're on the look out for something to blame on someone you dislike, obviously...
Brexit is the enabler, an essential prerequisite to enable this process to begin. It will take a long time.
 

Chester1

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Excuse me if I think that's an extraordinarily trivial reason to trash our economy, ruin our international reputation and sacrifice our rights to live and work in 27 other countries.

Honestly, that's absolutely pathetic.

That's an interesting reason for wishing to leave the EU. Your view on this matter really sucks, in my opinion.

In fairness one member of this site recently stated that they would have to move to Ireland because the EHIC and its UK replacement might not cover Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Iceland (despite this almost certainly being very temporary as demonstrated by Norway). Some of the remainer complaints in the media about the deal have been pathetic e.g. export ban on seed potatoes and non frozen sausages. Simply saying its a thin deal isn't good enough, any hole no matter how small needs to picked at, probably for many years to come. Its just like brexiteers not liking EU regs on vacuum cleaners.
 

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