Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does this shed any light on the discussion, or is it just a rehash of existing PR:
Design changes make EMR’s Aurora a new Hitachi product | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International

Each train will have 254 standard and 47 first class seats. EMR worked with Derby-based Dgdesign to develop an improved version of the Fisa Lean seat which has been used on the Stadler Flirt sets for Greater Anglia.

#*#*SHOW FULLSCREEN*#*#

There will be 800 mm of legroom, with a more ‘comfortable’ seat back rake than some other new trains being partly achieved through the use of more airline seating rather than bays.

EMR confirmed that seat pitch was a source of some contention, commenting ‘we were absolutely adamant about holding firm on seat pitch. It was one of our really strong things and we’re really pleased with where we’ve ended up.’

As well as having wider wings, the seat headrests will be slightly higher; according to EMR ‘you’ve got somewhere nice to place your head when you are relaxing in your seat.’

#*#*SHOW FULLSCREEN*#*#

Recognising that ‘what is comfortable to one person isn’t necessarily comfortable to another’, EMR has considered the ergonomics, centreline profile, firmness and cushions as well as the overall look of the seat, which the company notes can often affect the perception of comfort before a passenger even sits down.

While the seats and headrests are slightly larger and more sculpted, the use of horizontal trimming for the coverings will also add to a greater perception of width against the bland ‘single piece of cloth’ used on other new trains.

A continuous cushion across pairs of seats also gives an impression of width, and a deeper rolled edge at the front helps support the back of a passenger’s legs and gives them some additional comfort.

The original article also has more details on the differences between EMR's AT300s and everybody else's.

 

[Domh245]

No, that's new information (and more detailed than any of the investigations we've managed in this thread) - actual confirmation that they are LEANS throughout then

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, that's new information (and more detailed than any of the investigations we've managed in this thread) - actual confirmation that they are LEANS throughout then

Indeed seems to. I wonder is this the same one Avanti will end up using? It looks quite good.

 

[Nymanic]

I concur, those appear to be some well-informed design changes. Headrest looks a little firm in both classes, but then you can only tell so much from a render.

 

[g22]

There is a news story that appeared yesterday on the EMR website that says they are FISA Lean with some refinements.

254 Standard seats and 47 First. That is virtually the same as LNER Azuma 5 car isn't it? But these 810 carriage lengths are supposed to be shorter. How does that work, less legroom?

 

[Energy]

There is a news story that appeared yesterday on the EMR website that says they are FISA Lean with some refinements.

254 Standard seats and 47 First. That is virtually the same as LNER Azuma 5 car isn't it? But these 810 carriage lengths are supposed to be shorter. How does that work, less legroom?

Only 2m shorter per carriage, they have more airline seats.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a news story that appeared yesterday on the EMR website that says they are FISA Lean with some refinements.

254 Standard seats and 47 First. That is virtually the same as LNER Azuma 5 car isn't it? But these 810 carriage lengths are supposed to be shorter. How does that work, less legroom?

Far more airline seats? The 800mm “leg room”, (or should that be pitch?), in standard is comparable with existing 80x isn’t it? The original IEP Spec required only 750mm leg room in standard airline, so 800mm isn’t indicative of any reduction...

 

[Pacerman99]

I take it they'll still have luggage stacks? I can't see them anywhere in the renders and that seems like quite an easy way to pack in more seats.

 

[Domh245]

Only 2m shorter per carriage, I would imagine they cut back legroom a little

They claim 800mm leg room in the press release above, but how that compares to the existing fleet I do not know - the use of LEANs (with seatback niches) will help in terms of shoehorning in an extra row of seats. I also expect that most of the length saving on the 810s will come in the overhangs between the doors and the gangways, which are rather long (and used for bike/luggage storage I think?) on the normal 80x design - the space between the doors will likely be similar

 

[fgwrich]

They claim 800mm leg room in the press release above, but how that compares to the existing fleet I do not know - the use of LEANs (with seatback niches) will help in terms of shoehorning in an extra row of seats. I also expect that most of the length saving on the 810s will come in the overhangs between the doors and the gangways, which are rather long (and used for bike/luggage storage I think?) on the normal 80x design - the space between the doors will likely be similar

Toilets, Trolley Storage + the ridiculous Multi Space for either Bikes or Luggage.

 

[Energy]

Does the 810 have a buffet? If not that may help explain why it gets in the same number of people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Far more airline seats? The 800mm “leg room”, (or should that be pitch?), in standard is comparable with existing 80x isn’t it? The original IEP Spec required only 750mm leg room in standard airline, so 800mm isn’t indicative of any reduction...

That's pitch not legroom. The Fainsa Sophia is quite a thin backed seat, the LEAN is quite thick-backed (yes, there's the "niche", but not everyone will be able to fit their knees into it, it depends on how wide their pelvis is, and taller people are often bigger the other way too, not every tall person is a waif.

So you do need a bigger pitch if you're going to use a thicker backed seat. The extreme example is Northern's 158s - with the original seats (which are similar to FISA LEANs in the sense of having a "niche") the pitch is inhuman, whereas the exact same layout with ironing boards is generous.

If the standard for the Fainsa seated IET is 750, then 800 with the LEAN (an extra 5cm) should offer the same amount of legroom or indeed slightly better - which might be what they were talking about. Though if that's been achieved by there being hardly any tables people may not like the overall package.

 

[WesternLancer]

so passengers numbers have plummeted and no one seems to think they will go back to their old levels any time soon - so design a good seat (or better than other ironing boards) but still pack 'em in overall. Just seems daft to me - attract people back to the railway by making it more comfortable (at least than your car) - then if the numbers rocket beyond 2019 levels in the fullness of time, deal with that at a future refurb....

and by having more space save a few quid by buying less seats overall.

 

[Mollman]

East Midlands Railways unveils newly designed seats for state-of-the-art Aurora fleet​

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Thursday, 14 January 2021

• Completely unique seats offering enhanced comfort
• Seats easier to clean, maintain and more durable
• Every passenger has access to power and USB point

Passengers travelling on East Midlands Railway’s (EMR) Aurora trains will be able to sit back and relax thanks to unique seats specifically designed for the company’s new fleet.
Working closely with Derby-based design firm DGDESIGN, EMR has taken the proven product of a FISA Lean seat and refined it to offer enhanced comfort and support. It has also improved the appearance to match what they believe customers expect from an InterCity service seat.
The seat rework has included increasing the size of cushions, headrests and armrests and making sure that high quality durable materials are used throughout, such as a wool-rich moquette and leather.
At the same time, EMR has also ensured the seats include all the practical and technological features that customers require, such as power and USB points, generous legroom, coat hooks , well-sized seat-back tables for all airline seats and space to stow a cabin-bag under each seat.
Rachel Turner, Head of New Trains at East Midlands Railway, said: “We know the FISA seat has a good level of comfort, but we wanted to further enhance this by providing additional support in key areas, developing something that looks comfortable, inviting, and unique to EMR. All this has been done whilst ensuring we still meet the latest seat safety standards.
“Our customers are used to large comfortable seats, as found in our Meridian trains, so we wanted to maintain this character but go even further.
“It has taken a lot of work but we are delighted with the final product, not only are they comfortable to sit in and look refined, but they are also easy to keep clean and include all the features passengers should expect from a new generation of trains.”
David Gordon, Director at DGDESIGN, said: “After safety and punctuality, seat comfort is probably the most important customer requirement and therefore a key focus for our interior design work, with every effort being made to optimise the at-seat experience by further enhancing an already proven seat system.

“Headrests have improved lateral support for added comfort and privacy, cushions have been widened, armrests are softer and deeper, additional privacy screening has been introduced and upholstery detailing has been refined to improve aesthetics and cleanability.”
EMR's new InterCity fleet, which will be able to run on electricity and diesel, will be built by Hitachi Rail in County Durham and financed by Rock Rail East Midlands.

Mike Kean, Chief Originations Officer at Rock Rail, said “Comfortable seating plays a key part in delivering great passenger travelling experiences. We are delighted that the new Aurora seats will help transform passenger journeys together with the many other improved passenger, operational and environmental features of this state-of-the-art fleet.”
Amy Webb, Head of Programmes – Commuter, Hitachi Rail, said: “Hitachi is excited to be working with EMR to deliver the new Aurora Fleet for its passengers. As today’s announcement underlines, Aurora passengers can expect to benefit from a comfortable journey, with more capacity and a new, modern interior.
“The manufacturing of the trains is also benefiting over 75 suppliers across the UK – a number that will continue to rise – and will also support hundreds of jobs at Hitachi Rail’s factory in County Durham.”
When it enters service in 2023, Aurora will offer significant advances on the existing fleet, with passengers benefiting from more seats and modern interiors.
The trains will also include features that passengers have said they want to see, including air conditioning, free WiFi throughout, plug sockets and better passenger information screens.

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co....unveils-newly-designed-seats-for-state-of-the

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that that Standard picture shows all tables, yet they are talking about almost all airline.

They do look good, though. Continues a tradition of the MML taking an existing product and improving it a bit - the 222s are Voyagers but with many of the problems fixed.

 

[Nymanic]

Might be mistaken here, but the window pillars on the 810 seem a bit narrower than on 80x predecessors. In an age where window alignment is treated as some lofty privilege, it's a welcome improvement.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It's interesting that that Standard picture shows all tables, yet they are talking about almost all airline.

I asked them about that via Twitter; the reply came very quickly that there will be airline seats - they just aren't in that picture.

( Good - because I'm not keen on tables... )

 

[WesternLancer]

It's interesting that that Standard picture shows all tables, yet they are talking about almost all airline.

I doubt it happened by accident! So it gives a false impression, probably because they know the airline seats will look cramped....

still, at least some improvements on prev 800 type interiors

 

[squizzler]

The original article also has more details on the differences between EMR's AT300s and everybody else's.

For something that is supposedly a new product, there are certain things whose retention seems a bit of a lost opportunity. I would for instance assume the inboard framed bogies used under a couple of the cars in the 9 car sets would now be the standard. Similarly I would expect a change from Japanese practice sliding doors to European style plug doors.

It is welcome to hear of the interior changes such as standardising the luggage racks for the cabin baggage limit bags people already own from plane trips, and the underfloor heating which is apparently successful from the class 185. I am glad the chairs apparently are stylishly designed, although I would prefer them to discuss the rest of the technical evolution at equal length, as I find the hard engineering more interesting than soft furnishings.

 

[Domh245]

I would for instance assume the inboard framed bogies used under a couple of the cars in the 9 car sets would now be the standard.

Hitachi don't have a motored inboard frame bogie design that I'm aware of.

Similarly I would expect a change from Japanese practice sliding doors to European style plug doors.

For what benefit though?

 

[RealTrains07]

Iam surprised both first and standard have the same seat pattern. You would think first class would have different colours on the seat in contrast to standard like other train operators?

 

[HarryL]

It does look a bit like seat wise all you'll get extra going with first class will be a bit of extra headrest padding, a couple of plug sockets and I assume a recline feature.

Not that they should be completely different, just feels like they've got slightly less differences than is normal, especially if you take out the plugs which should be a standard class feature too.

 

[fgwrich]

Iam surprised both first and standard have the same seat pattern. You would think first class would have different colours on the seat in contrast to standard like other train operators?

Interestingly, that was bought up by somebody on the We Are EMR Facebook post with a photo of the XC HST First Class. While comments on Social Media may not be the place to directly learn from, If EMR want these to be a better version of the AT300 than the others, and so far have gone to the trouble of producing these videos and posts, then listening to feedback will need to be essential.

 

[Ethan1852]

Panels for the first Class 810 have arrived and the first 810 is due to be complete by Summer this Year with all sets to be in service by December 2023. https://mobile.twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1349352574789562370

 

[craigybagel]

Moving on from all the seat wibble, has anyone worked out yet how they're planning on putting in more engines than in any previous 8xx but with a shorter car length? I've seen speculation but has it actually been confirmed yet how it's going to work?

 

[Energy]

Moving on from all the seat wibble, has anyone worked out yet how they're planning on putting in more engines than in any previous 8xx but with a shorter car length? I've seen speculation but has it actually been confirmed yet how it's going to work?

1 extra car with an engine so the extra engine is not too hard. The 2m looks to have been cut from overhangs so the door to door distance is about the same.

 

[craigybagel]

1 extra car with an engine so the extra engine is not too hard. The 2m looks to have been cut from overhangs so the door to door distance is about the same.

True, but all the other 8xx designs from Hitachi have had the engines (and indeed the motors) only fitted on intermediate cars. For the 810s, they'll either need to fit engines to one or both driving cars, or fit two in at least one of the intermediate cars - which in either case is going to be a change and a challenge.

 

[Domh245]

True, but all the other 8xx designs from Hitachi have had the engines (and indeed the motors) only fitted on intermediate cars. For the 810s, they'll either need to fit engines to one or both driving cars, or fit two in at least one of the intermediate cars - which in either case is going to be a change and a challenge.

I think the fitting of engines to both driving cars is more likely (with single remote transformer in one of the middle vehicles with pantographs still at the ends), it strikes me as more feasible than 'doubling' up on one car. But there's no official confirmation of the arrangement that I'm aware of as yet

 

[swt_passenger]

Moving on from all the seat wibble, has anyone worked out yet how they're planning on putting in more engines than in any previous 8xx but with a shorter car length? I've seen speculation but has it actually been confirmed yet how it's going to work?

There are four cars with gen sets, except for the centre car which has the transformer. Apparently there’s a huge amount of detail in the latest Railway Gazette article (not that I’ve seen it, as I don’t subscribe, but it’s linked in earlier posts in this forum).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Moving on from all the seat wibble, has anyone worked out yet how they're planning on putting in more engines than in any previous 8xx but with a shorter car length? I've seen speculation but has it actually been confirmed yet how it's going to work?

I assume all 5 coaches will be high-floor. I don't think there's an issue with space under the end coaches of an 800/802, rather the floor height.

I think the fitting of engines to both driving cars is more likely (with single remote transformer in one of the middle vehicles with pantographs still at the ends), it strikes me as more feasible than 'doubling' up on one car. But there's no official confirmation of the arrangement that I'm aware of as yet

Yes, the transformer is to go in the centre vehicle and the others will all have engines. I recall that the Railway Gazette article stated this.