Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[Bletchleyite]

For a number of years, Platform 5 was used for the Llandudno service, until that was extended to Piccadilly (it used to terminate at Oxford Road for a period in the early/mid-90s)

Ah, could well be that.

They were put on in 2017 after the Chord opened. They were supposed to go to Picc/Airport but had to terminate at Oxford Rd presumably because of lack of paths. They were "temporarily" withdrawn again in 2018 but have yet to be reinstated

I was referring to 1997 or thereabouts, some 20 years earlier

 

[Whisky Papa]

Which extended Calder Valley trains, sorry? I'm talking late 90s here, pre Ordsall. The CLC stopper for a period around 1997 almost always used 1.

I seem to recall there being a fair gap (maybe 10-15 mins?) between the xx07 Cumbria (sometimes with Edinburgh portion) and the train before, perhaps there was time for it to get in around then? I do recall I tended to see it while waiting for the xx10 Liverpool or xx16 Blackpool - it would have gone out just after the Liverpool, I guess.

My apologies, it was the post above yours (#500 from Greybeard33) that I meant to quote.

I have corrected my OP.

I have remembered that, when the Ordsall Chord first opened, Northern extended a few off peak Calder Valley services to Oxford Road, until the TPE services were diverted round the Chord in May 2018. IIRC some of those reversed in P1, despite the lack of a lift.

In my experience (at the time I was regularly travelling from Todmorden to Urmston for family reasons) the extended Calder Valley trains usually terminated in P5 at Oxford Road, with the CLC stopper moved to P3. I can't recall use of P1, but am certainly not ruling it out.

 

[Greybeard33]

In my experience (at the time I was regularly travelling from Todmorden to Urmston for family reasons) the extended Calder Valley trains usually terminated in P5 at Oxford Road, with the CLC stopper moved to P3. I can't recall use of P1, but am certainly not ruling it out.

Ah, thanks, that rings a bell. I suspect my memory was at fault regarding use of P1 in 2017-18.

 

[Fokx]

Oxford Road Platform 1 is only 105m long, so cannot be used by 5- or 6-car trains. And the layout does not permit trains from the west to reverse in it. Therefore a lift would provide only limited additional operational flexibility.

Plus due to the position of stop markers and signals, if a longer train such as a 6 car class 185 or 331 uses platform 2, it sits on the points blocking access to Platform 1

 

[30907]

The peak only Wigan NW - Hazel Grove via Chat Moss is intended to retain a fast electric service between Wigan NW and Piccadilly, with the Cumbria services rerouted via Bolton. Also it replaces the Blackpool - Hazel Grove south of Piccadilly.

The peak only Southport - Oxford Road via Wigan Wallgate and Atherton is intended to retain a direct service between Southport and Oxford Road, with the Alderley Edge cut back to Piccadilly, and maintain 3tph on the Atherton line.

Thanks for the explanation.

A belated afterthought - why not run Southport-WNW-Chat Moss-Piccadilly-Hazel Grove (with 769s, which I presume is the plan anyway) using the single line connection at Wigan? Even allowing for the slow-speed connection it should be slightly faster than via Bolton (maybe not in the evening because of crossing the WCML twice!) and frees up a path into Oxford Road (obviously at the expense of Victoria). Bolton-Piccadilly has 4tph anyway in option C.

 

[Greybeard33]

Thanks for the explanation.

A belated afterthought - why not run Southport-WNW-Chat Moss-Piccadilly-Hazel Grove (with 769s, which I presume is the plan anyway) using the single line connection at Wigan? Even allowing for the slow-speed connection it should be slightly faster than via Bolton (maybe not in the evening because of crossing the WCML twice!) and frees up a path into Oxford Road (obviously at the expense of Victoria). Bolton-Piccadilly has 4tph anyway in option C.

The connection at Wigan is the wrong way round for that. It allows trains from Bolton/Atherton to go to Wigan NW instead of Wallgate, but trains from Southport/Wallgate cannot go south on the WCML via Wigan North Western without a double reversal.

 

[Starmill]

The connection at Wigan is the wrong way round for that. It allows trains from Bolton/Atherton to go to Wigan NW instead of Wallgate, but trains from Southport/Wallgate cannot go south on the WCML without a double reversal.

Trains from Southport to Manchester certainly can run directly via Golborne Jn without reversal. I've actually been on one!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains from Southport to Manchester certainly can run directly via Golborne Jn without reversal. I've actually been on one!

The Traksy map indeed shows they can, though they couldn't reach North Western itself.

 

[Ianno87]

The connection at Wigan is the wrong way round for that. It allows trains from Bolton/Atherton to go to Wigan NW instead of Wallgate, but trains from Southport/Wallgate cannot go south on the WCML without a double reversal.

There is a connection both ways.

 

[adrock1976]

The connection at Wigan is the wrong way round for that. It allows trains from Bolton/Atherton to go to Wigan NW instead of Wallgate, but trains from Southport/Wallgate cannot go south on the WCML without a double reversal.

Trains from Southport to Manchester certainly can run directly via Golborne Jn without reversal. I've actually been on one!

The Traksy map indeed shows they can, though they couldn't reach North Western itself.

There is a connection both ways.

Back in around July 2018 when there were Sunday engineering works along the Bolton/Blackburn via Darwen route, the Southport - Wigan Wallgate and Blackburn - Clitheroe sections were incorporated with the Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden to run as a through (albeit rather circuitous) train between Southport and Clitheroe.

After Wigan Wallgate, it ran to Victoria by using the ex Lancs & Yorks/London & NW crossovers just south of the London bound platforms of Wigan NW station, onwards to Blackburn via Todmorden, then reverse direction to continue to Clitheroe.

Being as the crossovers from Wallgate onto the main line do not normally see any passenger workings (whereas North Western to Ince do), I took the opportunity to do so back then. See the PSUL website if I am not making sense here.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is a connection both ways.

Yes of course. The binliners from Knowsley regularly cross to the WCML south. I have clarified my post - I meant that a train from Southport could not run south via Wigan North Western, as the post I quoted suggested.

 

[Jack Hay]

Plus due to the position of stop markers and signals, if a longer train such as a 6 car class 185 or 331 uses platform 2, it sits on the points blocking access to Platform 1

And then there's the lack of lift to P1, as mentioned up-thread. That is certainly not an easy thing to add. The lift between P4 and P3/2 is a re-use of the old parcels subway which dates back to the MSJ&A era. Oxford Road station is built on a viaduct so I suspect that parcels subway was designed in when the station was built as it could scarcely be added later. For the same reason I suspect it is incapable of being extended to P1. All in all, P1 is a hopeless case and you can see why special arrangements are needed whenever it is used nowadays (in case a wheelchair passenger turns up).

 

[Starmill]

The Traksy map indeed shows they can, though they couldn't reach North Western itself.

Indeed. We served all stations from Southport to Wigan Wallgate inclusive and then ran fast to Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. We served all stations from Southport to Wigan Wallgate inclusive and then ran fast to Manchester Oxford Road.

I assume you mean Wallgate?

 

[30907]

Yes of course. The binliners from Knowsley regularly cross to the WCML south. I have clarified my post - I meant that a train from Southport could not run south via Wigan North Western

Sorry, senior moment - wrong code, which I didn't spot from your original reply.

 

[BrianW]

I'm interested that relatively few contributions here relate to connections between Victoria and Piccadilly. I wonder whether it's that there is little call on such? Do folk from north of Manchester not need to travel to either south Manchester or the Midlands or London- or do they expect to change at Salford, (and/or Wigan or Warrington, including changing stations?) or have been so used to not being able to that there is little 'demand'? Or expect to walk or tram?
I'm so used to the connectivity of the London Tube that I expect to go from anywhere to anywhere by making the required changes without a thought.
Did I hear that even a kind of 'Oyster' card allowing easy change of 'mode' 20 years after its intro 'down south' is now off the cards for Manchester?
I'm also struck- pleased- how many contributions seem to accept that maybe 'the planners' do know something and are tryng to provide the greatest satisfaction to the greatest number.

 

[marsker]

Castlefield, of course, is not the only bit of congested railway in the North, though it is the worst and with far-reaching consequenses. I would question whether, in addition to the Liverpool - Edinburgh service, the North East really needs 2 services per hour from Manchester.
I would suggest that the current (pre Covid) services from Manchester Airport to Redcar and to Newcastle should be combined into 1 hourly service from Manchester Airport to York going forward alternately to Redcar and Newcastle. A York - Redcar connection would be required for the trains running to Newcastle, but with 5 other services per hour from York, a similar provision would not be required for Newcastle!
In addition to easing the flow through Castlefield, this would reduce the congested lines from Stalybridge to Leeds and Leeds to Micklefield by 1 train per hour and from Northallerton to Newcastle by 0.5 trains per hour. It might also rectify TPE's shortafall of Nova 1 and 3 sets for their full service!

 

[peters]

I'm interested that relatively few contributions here relate to connections between Victoria and Piccadilly. I wonder whether it's that there is little call on such? Do folk from north of Manchester not need to travel to either south Manchester or the Midlands or London- or do they expect to change at Salford, (and/or Wigan or Warrington, including changing stations?) or have been so used to not being able to that there is little 'demand'?

Well I live on one of the lines which goes into Manchester Piccadilly from the Slade Lane direction. If the Southport trains all go from Victoria and I want a station only served by a Southport service then I'm not going to go to Victoria, I'm going to change at Salford Crescent or Bolton. Similarly if I want a station on the Clitheroe route I'll also change at Salford Crescent or Bolton. I'm also not going to travel round the Ordsall Chord or via Metrolink to get to Victoria if I want Salford Central, it'll be quicker to walk from Piccadilly and if I don't want to walk there's the free Metroshuttle bus.

The one time I would have to go via Victoria is if I want a station between Victoria and Halifax e.g. Hebden Bridge. If I want Halifax or Bradford I can change at Huddersfield, if the next TransPennine service from Piccadilly is the Hull service.

 

[Bald Rick]

To save me going through 500+ posts, is the general feeling that “C” is best?

Perhaps we should have a poll...

 

[Ianno87]

Castlefield, of course, is not the only bit of congested railway in the North, though it is the worst and with far-reaching consequenses. I would question whether, in addition to the Liverpool - Edinburgh service, the North East really needs 2 services per hour from Manchester.
I would suggest that the current (pre Covid) services from Manchester Airport to Redcar and to Newcastle should be combined into 1 hourly service from Manchester Airport to York going forward alternately to Redcar and Newcastle. A York - Redcar connection would be required for the trains running to Newcastle, but with 5 other services per hour from York, a similar provision would not be required for Newcastle!
In addition to easing the flow through Castlefield, this would reduce the congested lines from Stalybridge to Leeds and Leeds to Micklefield by 1 train per hour and from Northallerton to Newcastle by 0.5 trains per hour. It might also rectify TPE's shortafall of Nova 1 and 3 sets for their full service!

I think it is reasonable that York and points West thereof have at least 2 trains per hour to Manchester. Which then might as well start from Newcastle/Middlesbrough/wherever.

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm interested that relatively few contributions here relate to connections between Victoria and Piccadilly. I wonder whether it's that there is little call on such? Do folk from north of Manchester not need to travel to either south Manchester or the Midlands or London- or do they expect to change at Salford, (and/or Wigan or Warrington, including changing stations?) or have been so used to not being able to that there is little 'demand'? Or expect to walk or tram?
I'm so used to the connectivity of the London Tube that I expect to go from anywhere to anywhere by making the required changes without a thought.
Did I hear that even a kind of 'Oyster' card allowing easy change of 'mode' 20 years after its intro 'down south' is now off the cards for Manchester?
I'm also struck- pleased- how many contributions seem to accept that maybe 'the planners' do know something and are tryng to provide the greatest satisfaction to the greatest number.

The existing heavy rail infrastructure in Manchester can only provide connectivity between Victoria and Piccadilly, via the Ordsall Chord, at the expense of connectivity to the west of the city.

Each service on the Chord requires a path into both Victoria and Piccadilly from the west. But the path into Piccadilly has to go through the congested Castlefield corridor, while Victoria has no west facing bays and only four through platforms, which are at capacity.

Ideally there would be a "turn up and go" frequency of at least 4tph between Victoria and Piccadilly, versus 2tph in the baseline timetable. But, pending infrastructure enhancements, this would require culling of 4tph to destinations west of Manchester (2tph from Piccadilly and 2tph from Victoria).

The trams provide a 5tph frequency on the direct route between the stations (more with a change at Market Street or St Peters Square). But they are slow and, pre-Covid, could be overcrowded in the peaks. Walking takes about 20 minutes.

 

[peters]

To save me going through 500+ posts, is the general feeling that “C” is best?

Perhaps we should have a poll...

There's certainly a lot more posts in favour of option C than any other option.

While this forum provides a good way of discussing the options, I hope that people who have an opinion on which is best actually respond to the consultation.

 

[jfollows]

I'm interested that relatively few contributions here relate to connections between Victoria and Piccadilly. I wonder whether it's that there is little call on such? Do folk from north of Manchester not need to travel to either south Manchester or the Midlands or London- or do they expect to change at Salford, (and/or Wigan or Warrington, including changing stations?) or have been so used to not being able to that there is little 'demand'? Or expect to walk or tram?
I'm so used to the connectivity of the London Tube that I expect to go from anywhere to anywhere by making the required changes without a thought.

I essentially agree with peters; I learned a good walking route between Piccadilly and Victoria in 1973 and I still choose to walk today. Why? Mainly because it's a predictable journey. If there were a train every 10 minutes between Piccadilly and Victoria which was reliable, on some kind of regular interval, I might think about it. But there isn't and the nub of the problems this thread is discussing are why it's unreliable. Until Covid my dentist was N of the Salford-Victoria line, but it's still better to walk from Piccadilly for me - and I've had a stroke which negatively affects my walking too. 08:45 booked arrival at Piccadilly for 09:30 dentist appointment and the knowledge that it takes me a little under 30 minutes to do the walk.

I don't expect to unlearn my walking habit. Maybe newer rail users will be converted to the idea of train connections between Victoria and Piccadilly.

And I now avoid using Piccadilly platforms 13/14 if I can. On occasions I go Wilmslow-Deansgate by changing at Manchester Airport.

I'd use a through service from Wilmslow to Victoria, whichever of the two possible routes it might use. However there are relatively few of these - and none at times I want to travel.

 

[Ianno87]

I essentially agree with peters; I learned a good walking route between Piccadilly and Victoria in 1973 and I still choose to walk today. Why? Mainly because it's a predictable journey. If there were a train every 10 minutes between Piccadilly and Victoria which was reliable, on some kind of regular interval, I might think about it. But there isn't and the nub of the problems this thread is discussing are why it's unreliable. Until Covid my dentist was N of the Salford-Victoria line, but it's still better to walk from Piccadilly for me - and I've had a stroke which negatively affects my walking too. 08:45 booked arrival at Piccadilly for 09:30 dentist appointment and the knowledge that it takes me a little under 30 minutes to do the walk.

I don't expect to unlearn my walking habit. Maybe newer rail users will be converted to the idea of train connections between Victoria and Piccadilly.

And I now avoid using Piccadilly platforms 13/14 if I can. On occasions I go Wilmslow-Deansgate by changing at Manchester Airport.

I'd use a through service from Wilmslow to Victoria, whichever of the two possible routes it might use. However there are relatively few of these - and none at times I want to travel.

Piccadilly-Victoria is certainly one where you have to "know the way" when walking, and is certainly a deterrent to those unfamiliar with Manchester city centre.

It has certainly always been seen as a barrier to cross-city travel.

 

[Llandudno]

Piccadilly-Victoria is certainly one where you have to "know the way" when walking, and is certainly a deterrent to those unfamiliar with Manchester city centre.

It has certainly always been seen as a barrier to cross-city travel.

Yep, not a pleasant walk from Piccadilly to Victoria dodging all the beggars, hawkers and druggies spaced out in Piccadilly Gardens plus the all the drunken smokers outside Wetherspoons.

The other thing that’s off putting is for some reason the paving slabs are uneven and as it always seems to rain in Manchester you get covered in water and slime as the slabs move when you walk on them!

 

[30907]

Ideally there would be a "turn up and go" frequency of at least 4tph between Victoria and Piccadilly, versus 2tph in the baseline timetable. But, pending infrastructure enhancements, this would require culling of 2tph to destinations west of Manchester (from Piccadilly)

Slightly amended, as Victoria doesn't have the capacity problem in quite the same way, but your point is sound and I can't see a way round it.
The flows to Oxford Rd/Piccadilly themselves from the Standedge and Calder Valley routes could be covered by making longer distance rail tickets available to Metrolink Central Zone (who pays, though?).

This leaves the Airport flow plus the "via Manchester" rail flow (eg Marches), both of which would suffer from not having direct access to Piccadilly. Realistically, the bulk of that will be via Standedge, which is why a reliable 2tph York-Airport makes sense, allowing Calder Valley passengers to connect easily. (It also forms part of the core 4tph Leeds-Vic service which I take as a given.)
Alternatively, you could I suppose run 2tph Leeds-Huddersfield-(skip-stop)-Piccadilly-Airport and 2tph Calder Valley-Piccadilly; I would personally find that convenient, and it would avoid using end-door stock on Castlefield, but I suspect it would be a net lossmaker.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Piccadilly-Victoria is certainly one where you have to "know the way" when walking, and is certainly a deterrent to those unfamiliar with Manchester city centre.

It has certainly always been seen as a barrier to cross-city travel.

Is the solution - or at least a big part of the solution - to have a well-signed walking route between the two?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the solution - or at least a big part of the solution - to have a well-signed walking route between the two?

There's a perfectly good tram service. Including it in all cross-Manchester fares (like London) would work, though to be fair it costs very little (£1.40) and with contactless it's not a massive faff paying for it.

 

[Greybeard33]

Is the solution - or at least a big part of the solution - to have a well-signed walking route between the two?

IMO the pedestrian route between Victoria and Piccadilly is adequately signed, and there are street maps at strategic locations in the city centre.

Most passengers have a smartphone app that can give walking directions. Failing all that you can just follow the tram tracks!

 

[BrianW]

Piccadilly-Victoria is certainly one where you have to "know the way" when walking, and is certainly a deterrent to those unfamiliar with Manchester city centre.

It has certainly always been seen as a barrier to cross-city travel.

Looking at the National Rail Timetable for tomorrow, btween 9 and 10am, for trains Picc to Vic:
9.01 taking 32 mins with 2 changes- Ox Rd and Salford Central
9.30 29 mins, changing once- at Salford Central
9.31 22 mins with no change
9.57 14 mins with no change
All those will be longer of course depending on time changing platforms and waiting after arrival at Piccadilly; hardly encouraging.