Most Unreliable Locomotive

[CW2]

Appreciate the time taken to recount this litany of failure!

Not sure if you've perused the thread on the AC electrics (81-87) on the Nostalgia and History subforum, but have you any experience with the 84s? These were supposed to be particularly unreliable?

Yes the 84s were poor. I only had 4 runs with them, and one of those was a failure on arrival at destination, but none of them failed outright. Of the other classes:
81 - I had 81006 fail on me twice, otherwise no issues.
82 - I had 82007 with a traction motor fault, which caused the loco to cut out 5 times between Euston and Crewe - where we still arrived 6 minutes early.
83 - No failures affecting me directly, but on a couple of occasions I was delayed or diverted because of an 83 failing on a preceding train. .
84 - see above.
85 - The commonest of the Roarers, so unsurprisingly I recorded a greater number of failures:
85014 at Shieldmuir Jn heading south, rescued by 83009.
85014 failed again at Bay Horse heading south, rescued by 86417.
85015 failed at Kidsgrove, assisted to Stoke by 97408!
85003 rescued failed 87011 at Hemel Hempstead heading north, then itself failed at Preston. I gave up there, with the train now nearly 2 hours late.
86 - Most numerous of all, but generally very good performers.
86004 - I witnessed this being hauled dead into Carlisle on a Motorail train. The assisting loco was an 08! Later the same day I had it and it failed just south of Beattock. I hoped for the pair of 20s at Beattock to rescue us, but along came 47418. Cheers then. Despite tens of thousands of miles with 86s, this was my only recorded failure.
87 - 87032 failed at Floriston on a Glasgow - Euston. We coasted into Carlisle and arrived there totally silently, 5 minutes early.
87035 "lost" a traction motor at Nuneaton while working an up sleeper. Diverted to Northampton where 86207 assisted forward to Euston.
87029 DSD failure at Watford Jn. An Ops Supervisor double-manned the loco to Bletchley, where a 57 worked forward.
There was one instance of a broken windscreen resulting in termination at Bletchley.

 

[Inversnecky]

Yes the 84s were poor. I only had 4 runs with them, and one of those was a failure on arrival at destination, but none of them failed outright. Of the other classes:
81 - I had 81006 fail on me twice, otherwise no issues.
82 - I had 82007 with a traction motor fault, which caused the loco to cut out 5 times between Euston and Crewe - where we still arrived 6 minutes early.
83 - No failures affecting me directly, but on a couple of occasions I was delayed or diverted because of an 83 failing on a preceding train. .
84 - see above.
85 - The commonest of the Roarers, so unsurprisingly I recorded a greater number of failures:
85014 at Shieldmuir Jn heading south, rescued by 83009.
85014 failed again at Bay Horse heading south, rescued by 86417.
85015 failed at Kidsgrove, assisted to Stoke by 97408!
85003 rescued failed 87011 at Hemel Hempstead heading north, then itself failed at Preston. I gave up there, with the train now nearly 2 hours late.
86 - Most numerous of all, but generally very good performers.
86004 - I witnessed this being hauled dead into Carlisle on a Motorail train. The assisting loco was an 08! Later the same day I had it and it failed just south of Beattock. I hoped for the pair of 20s at Beattock to rescue us, but along came 47418. Cheers then. Despite tens of thousands of miles with 86s, this was my only recorded failure.
87 - 87032 failed at Floriston on a Glasgow - Euston. We coasted into Carlisle and arrived there totally silently, 5 minutes early.
87035 "lost" a traction motor at Nuneaton while working an up sleeper. Diverted to Northampton where 86207 assisted forward to Euston.
87029 DSD failure at Watford Jn. An Ops Supervisor double-manned the loco to Bletchley, where a 57 worked forward.
There was one instance of a broken windscreen resulting in termination at Bletchley.

Thanks. I was going to say you have a great memory for numbers, but presumably these come from a ‘diary’ or reports?

 

[CW2]

Thanks. I was going to say you have a great memory for numbers, but presumably these come from a ‘diary’ or reports?

I recorded all the moves at the time, then transferred them to an Access database at a later date.

 

[david1212]

I wonder what effect maintenance facilities had on this. By the mid 60's most diesels were being maintained in newly built or specifically converted buildings. I only visited Barrow shed a couple of times, and the memory plays tricks, but I only recall Co-Bo's in the old steam shed alongside the steam locos. I don't remember a separate diesel facility

Initially they were allocated to Cricklewood and Derby. It was later they were moved to Barrow perhaps in the hope that they would fare better on less demanding work. Summarising numerous sources overall it seems the Crossley engine continued to be unreliable. In Ireland the Crossley engines were replaced but given to BR a small class they just pulled the plug.

 

[Gloster]

Initially they were allocated to Cricklewood and Derby. It was later they were moved to Barrow perhaps in the hope that they would fare better on less demanding work.

There also seems to have been the hope that concentrating all the Co-Bo’s maintenance at one depot would allow staff to become better acquainted with their quirks. It seems to have had a bit of success as they weren’t as unreliable when based at Barrow as they had been previously, but there is only so far that you can go with a basically rotten product.

 

[david1212]

There also seems to have been the hope that concentrating all the Co-Bo’s maintenance at one depot would allow staff to become better acquainted with their quirks. It seems to have had a bit of success as they weren’t as unreliable when based at Barrow as they had been previously, but there is only so far that you can go with a basically rotten product.

Remember too inbetween they had all been back to the factory for modifications. After then it seems except for the engine reliability was better.

 

[61058]

I remember going round Carnforth shed in August 1968 & seeing a row of withdrawn class 28's.
Meanwhile Stanier Black 5 's were still in use !

 

[Cowley]

Yes the 84s were poor. I only had 4 runs with them, and one of those was a failure on arrival at destination, but none of them failed outright. Of the other classes:
81 - I had 81006 fail on me twice, otherwise no issues.
82 - I had 82007 with a traction motor fault, which caused the loco to cut out 5 times between Euston and Crewe - where we still arrived 6 minutes early.
83 - No failures affecting me directly, but on a couple of occasions I was delayed or diverted because of an 83 failing on a preceding train. .
84 - see above.
85 - The commonest of the Roarers, so unsurprisingly I recorded a greater number of failures:
85014 at Shieldmuir Jn heading south, rescued by 83009.
85014 failed again at Bay Horse heading south, rescued by 86417.
85015 failed at Kidsgrove, assisted to Stoke by 97408!
85003 rescued failed 87011 at Hemel Hempstead heading north, then itself failed at Preston. I gave up there, with the train now nearly 2 hours late.
86 - Most numerous of all, but generally very good performers.
86004 - I witnessed this being hauled dead into Carlisle on a Motorail train. The assisting loco was an 08! Later the same day I had it and it failed just south of Beattock. I hoped for the pair of 20s at Beattock to rescue us, but along came 47418. Cheers then. Despite tens of thousands of miles with 86s, this was my only recorded failure.
87 - 87032 failed at Floriston on a Glasgow - Euston. We coasted into Carlisle and arrived there totally silently, 5 minutes early.
87035 "lost" a traction motor at Nuneaton while working an up sleeper. Diverted to Northampton where 86207 assisted forward to Euston.
87029 DSD failure at Watford Jn. An Ops Supervisor double-manned the loco to Bletchley, where a 57 worked forward.
There was one instance of a broken windscreen resulting in termination at Bletchley.

Assisted by 97408. Nice.

 

[alistairlees]

Failures that I can recall:

45136 caught fire at Batley on the 07.51 York - Holyhead. Fire service attended. 47337 turned up from Healey Mills, towed the train to Huddersfield (where the peak was left in the centre road) and then continued all the way to Holyhead. I think it might have gone via Wigan too. This was 1985.

47404 packed up at Doncaster on a Kings Cross - Newcastle via Leeds overnight. 37109 to Leeds (where I was going). At Leeds 45055 was steaming on a very late southbound overnight. Late 1983.

47544 packed up at Huddersfield on an east-bound transpennine. 45033 turned up from Healey Mills and took the train (and the dead duff) to at least York. 1986 or 87.

500xx packed up just short of Newton Abbot on the 06.35 Bristol - Plymouth. Another 50 was commandeered from the Newton Abbot - Paignton ECS to drag it into Newton Abbot, before going back on to the ECS (which was to form a Paignton - Paddington). After about 45 minutes 45068 turned up from Laira and dragged the train and the dead hoover to Plymouth.

47518 (I think) on the Newcastle Poole packed up between York and Leeds. 45124 pushed it to Leeds. 45123 turned up to remove the dead duff whilst 45124 ran round and took the train forwards.

45106 packed up at Hinckley on a railtour, whilst working in tandem with 45007. 45106 was replaced by 45107 at Leicester.

I've had a few others that were not outright failures:
- 45150 couldn't work the 18.03 service out of Lime Street because the ETH cable had been snapped (someone forgot to detach it before it was driven off earlier in the day...). Ended up with a 47 instead
- 451xx (121?) swapped at Leeds on a transpennine because the cab heater wasn't working. Didn't cause more than a few minutes delay.
- 451xx (113?) on the Newcastle - Poole was swapped at Sheffield for 45058. There was nothing wrong with the EH peak, I think it was just wanted for an exam. 45058 went all the way to Birmingham and then, somewhat surprisingly, was turned for the return Poole to Newcastle, which it worked all the way from Birmingham to Newcastle. As this was entirely air-cons (apart from the buffet) I think it got fairly chilly and stuffy at the same time.

I'm sure I must have had some 27s and 31s fail on me, but I can't remember. I don't actually remember a 40 failing on me either, though this is more likely because at least one or two failed before they actually got to me.

 

[CW2]

One Sunday in 1983 I made my way to Newark to intercept the 1637 Kings Cross - Newcastle via Sunderland, which was allocated 40029. Now of all the class 40s, 40029 was one of the weakest. In fact it was a despicable shed of a loco, but the prospect of a 40 round the coast made it worthwhile. So I had my HST to Newark to await the arrival and claim my prize.
Bad news - unsurprisingly 40029 only made it as far as Peterborough before failing.
Good news - freshly ex-works 37035 was on hand at Peterborough and replaced it. That'll do nicely.
Bad news - 37035 also failed, in mid-section. An unknown loco off Peterborough was sent to assist.
Bad news - the train turned up at Newark nearly two hours late with the unlovely 47002 hauling dead 37035.
Bad news - 37035 had to be detached at Doncaster to return to works for rectification, so we got even later.
Not a good Sunday evening bash: HST for long fester for Duff!

Incidentally 47002 was the same loco which rescued 37025 at Lentran and worked to Lairg and back the following year.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was 5 minutes or more for passenger trains when I was dealing with loco casualties in the 1970’s. I can’t remember if it was 10 or 15 minutes for freight - it’s too long ago!

5 minutes - yes - I was wondering if my memory was going awry! Same with you on freight.

 

[D6975]

The thing that's failed on me the most times is.....HSTs
Thing is though I've never come to a complete halt due to failure traveling on one because the remaining PC has always limped on to my destination.

 

[43096]

The thing that's failed on me the most times is.....HSTs
Thing is though I've never come to a complete halt due to failure traveling on one because the remaining PC has always limped on to my destination.

A one-engine HST will still do 100mph; just take longer to get there. Hardly "limped".

 

[Whistler40145]

A one-engine HST will still do 100mph; just take longer to get there. Hardly "limped".

A HST can manage on one power car, except for climbing over the South Devon Banks where it has been the norm for the train to be piloted

 

[supervc-10]

A one-engine HST will still do 100mph; just take longer to get there. Hardly "limped".

I dunno, limped sounds about right. I remember being on a FGW (as was) HST with only 1 PC from Pewsey to Reading. It was an hour late by the time it got to Pewsey, and got later from then. They gave up at Reading. That's definitely limping.

However I think that's the only time I've ever had an HST fail in any way.

 

[Richard Scott]

I dunno, limped sounds about right. I remember being on a FGW (as was) HST with only 1 PC from Pewsey to Reading. It was an hour late by the time it got to Pewsey, and got later from then. They gave up at Reading. That's definitely limping.

However I think that's the only time I've ever had an HST fail in any way.

What you need is a 50 to be attached. Remember seeing 50037 at Reading many years ago assisting an ailing HST, back power car still working. Was on time at Reading and reputedly reached Paddington 2 minutes early! Must have been exceeding the 50's speed limit by a few mph?!!!

 

[40129]

ISTR that a Western ended up assisting an HST in the early days of privatization

 

[Richard Scott]

ISTR that a Western ended up assisting an HST in the early days of privatization

It did indeed, believe from Chippenham. We were on the tour with D1015, it came off at Bristol TN and was running light back to Old Oak and got commandeered to rescue the HST.

 

[D1537]

I was travelling from York to Birmingham one evening around 1986ish and my train (the 17.xx Newcastle-Plymouth) arrived around 15 minutes late with the front PC completely silent. We got to Doncaster and stood ... and stood ... and it turned out the rear PC had failed as well. A couple of dmus were hastily roped together to get everyone to Sheffield where we were all put on the 20.50 Sheffield-St Pancras, change at Derby for Birmingham and beyond. At Derby a relief had been organised, in the shape of ... 151002. It was the only time I travelled on one of these. This terminated at Birmingham by which time it was past 11pm and I have no idea what happened to the passengers that wanted to go further West.

 

[Irascible]

I dunno, limped sounds about right. I remember being on a FGW (as was) HST with only 1 PC from Pewsey to Reading. It was an hour late by the time it got to Pewsey, and got later from then. They gave up at Reading. That's definitely limping.

However I think that's the only time I've ever had an HST fail in any way.

That sounds like it may have been more than a simple PC failure - have been on several over the years, all a bit pedestrian, but got me there just fine.

Far more memorable were the couple of times I arrived at Padd & had to walk past the 50 that hauled me there, and then the coaches & dead 50 we'd pushed from somewhere between there and Reading ( this would be pre refurb ). Now I'm wondering if a full HST ( rather than just PCs ) ever assisted another one.

 

[D6975]

A one-engine HST will still do 100mph; just take longer to get there. Hardly "limped".

I beg to differ. A HST on one PC will manage OK on Brunels' billiard table, but give it a hill and it really struggles. On the Devon banks they were not allowed to proceed without assistance and up the Lickey they had to arrange a clear run to be allowed up.

 

[CW2]

I remember a NE/SW HST arriving at Bristol one day, when I was at a loose end, looking for some decent loco haulage. The HST was on one power car, running about 40 minutes late, but was still advertised as going through to Plymouth. I hopped on board, looking forward to (hopefully) one of the clay sector 37s from Exeter. We carried on past Exeter on one power car, and drew into the back road at Newton Abbot. Excellent, where's that big 37 I'm waiting for. Fitter saunters over, starts up the defective power car, and away we went! Another day of my life wasted ...

 

[Gloster]

Another day of my life wasted ...

How can you say that. You got to go to Devon, didn’t you.

 

[SteveyBee131]

How can you say that. You got to go to Devon, didn’t you.

I think @CW2 's point was that he was hoping for something unusual, which at the time, HSTs were far from (!)

 

[Jamesrob637]

How can you say that. You got to go to Devon, didn’t you.

But he didn't say if it was raining in which case Devon is depressing! Of all HSTs I took between Plymouth and Exeter, none failed on me. Think a 47 might have failed once and had to be rescued by another.

 

[Irascible]

How can you say that. You got to go to Devon, didn’t you.

He probably got to leave too!

I've had a HST on a single PC away from Tivvy Parkway towards Wellington & was a bit concerned we were never going to make it, but after that was pretty plain sailing. Only thing that ever part failed over the southern banks was one half of a 158, and the other half managed to just about valiantly struggle up there.

 

[CW2]

How can you say that. You got to go to Devon, didn’t you.

All my father's side of the family are from Devon. It is a wonderful place. It's simply that my only reason for going there that day was for some decent loco haulage, and stopping in the back road at Newton Abbot where I couldn't even alight was the final blow.

 

[APT618S]

For HSTs I can only recall one instance of having boarded not reaching my destination.
It was 43065 on a Grand Central KGX-SUN back in Easter 2008 that when power was re-applyed after a signal check just south of Newark the gear box seized and we came to a stand on the curve just south of the station. After about half an hour the rear power car very slowly pushed the train into the station. I seem to recall 43065 remained in Newark Yard for a while before presumably being put on a wheel skate due to flats.

 

[Grumpy Git]

For HSTs I can only recall one instance of having boarded not reaching my destination.
It was 43065 on a Grand Central KGX-SUN back in Easter 2008 that when power was re-applyed after a signal check just south of Newark the gear box seized and we came to a stand on the curve just south of the station. After about half an hour the rear power car very slowly pushed the train into the station. I seem to recall 43065 remained in Newark Yard for a while before presumably being put on a wheel skate due to flats.

I presume you mean a gearbox (i.e. on one traction motor) rather than the gearbox?

 

[APT618S]

I presume you mean a gearbox (i.e. on one traction motor) rather than the gearbox?

Possibly, I just recall gearbox was mentioned at the time.
Subsequent to my first post a google search brought up this discussion about the incident:

Grand Central in trouble again?

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