Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[BananaRepublic]

........I don't think the same logic will apply here as a largely right wing media won't side with Rayner like they would with Trump/Johnson.

It won't need "right wing media" for the electorate to see that Rayner's outburst makes her unfit to hold any position of power or authority.
Labour are pulling themselves apart again, before this conference has even got underway.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Oh dear….

Wrong to say that only women have a cervix, says Keir Starmer

MP Rosie Duffield staying away from Brighton gathering over online threats

www.independent.co.uk

Apparently it’s wrong to say only women have Cervix’s in Starmer’s wokey world view and somehow this is supposed to endear the working class voters, how?

Im not a transphobe but this is getting utterly ridiculous, at this rate we’ll be stuck with the Tories until the end of the decade or the left will be finished in this country.

 

[Purple Orange]

Oh dear….

Wrong to say that only women have a cervix, says Keir Starmer

MP Rosie Duffield staying away from Brighton gathering over online threats

www.independent.co.uk

Apparently it’s wrong to say only women have Cervix’s in Starmer’s wokey world view and somehow this is supposed to endear the working class voters, how?

Im not a transphobe but this is getting utterly ridiculous, at this rate we’ll be stuck with the Tories until the end of the decade or the left will be finished in this country.

I watched that interview and I didn’t hear Starmer didn’t say anything of the sort. The message seemed to be that the conference is a safe place to go and there the debate should happen.

Plus lets not kid ourselves that the debate on trans rights is going to be a determining factor in the working classes flocking too or away from Labour.

 

[XAM2175]

Apparently it’s wrong to say only women have Cervix’s in Starmer’s wokey world view ...

... Im not a transphobe but this is getting utterly ridiculous ...

Do you think it's something that can be discussed without somebody being either a transphobe or a "wokey"?

 

[birchesgreen]

I must admit i get a bit suspicious how the left both here and in the States gets thrown into chaos by these issues but not the right. Its almost as if it's planned.

 

[brad465]

It won't need "right wing media" for the electorate to see that Rayner's outburst makes her unfit to hold any position of power or authority.
Labour are pulling themselves apart again, before this conference has even got underway.

But they'll give it more attention than anything Johnson has said before. I'm not saying Rayner should have said what she said, but there's no denying in our increasingly tribal society there are people on both sides who tolerate something said by someone they like, but despise comments of someone they dislike that are similarly wrong.

The problem with the hard left in Labour is they need to understand the meaning and necessity of "pragmatism": they believe their views are 100% correct and will not compromise anywhere with anyone (nobody is 100% right in life), even those also in the Labour party who are one inch to the right of them. They think Starmer is a Tory to some description, they arguably hate Blair more than a typical Tory voter today does, and as referenced above, don't like some of their own MPs (like Rosie Duffield) for one point of view not in line with their own. They are a minority in the party at the moment, enough so that their MP tally isn't enough on its own to trigger a leadership challenge, but this hasn't stopped them being trouble. If they really like their way of thinking, they should just be pragmatic enough with the rest of the party to get a PR voting system in place, then if implemented they can go their separate ways more easily; perhaps then they'll realise they need to work with the moderates more if the alternative is a Tory/right wing Government.

 

[colchesterken]

I have voted Labour Tory and lib Dem! When the policies fitted in with my views or sometimes against the "other lot"

My view now. They should not have elected the author of the Brexit policy as leader, To leavers and remainers he is tainted.
A QC former top Civil Servant will look to many like a closet Tory, they needed a grass roots leader so as not to upset the left too much post Corbyn, many think they have gone from hard left to hard right
Starmer needs to come out with some policies, not just trash the other lot. Charles Clarke said that on Sky this morning
( he is sitting as an independent in the Lords !!! ) They need to press the point of privatising the profits and nationalising the losses, Many people would support a bit of nationalising, where there is a natural monopoly, Railways. Energy, Water, Local Busses. a good foundation to start from, together with Fair Voting and their Social policies

 

[Gloster]

A return to the old days is just what the Conservatives wanted: food and fuel shortages, and Labour, just when it is needed and has a chance to make a mark, busy infighting. However, it is the conference season and this always gives prominence to such problems. We shall see if disagreements at the Tory conference also cause them similar embarrassments.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.......Many people would support a bit of nationalising, where there is a natural monopoly, Railways. Energy, Water, Local Busses. a good foundation to start from, together with Fair Voting and their Social policies

...and yet on the Andrew Marr show, Starmer said he wasn't advocating a nationalisation policy.

 

[Purple Orange]

...and yet on the Andrew Marr show, Starmer said he wasn't advocating a nationalisation policy.

He said they’d look at public control where it is appropriate, not nationalisation of the energy companies.

 

[BananaRepublic]

He said they’d look at public control where it is appropriate, not nationalisation of the energy companies.

He used a lot of wooly words and evaded the question.
It's still backtracking on his previous position and counter to what a lot of the party are calling for.

 

[Purple Orange]

He used a lot of wooly words and evaded the question.
It's still backtracking on his previous position and counter to what a lot of the party are calling for.

Find us a politician that doesn’t try to evade a question. It’s reflective of the fact that the trans debate is not resolved anywhere by anyone. What do you think the party was calling for specifically?

 

[brad465]

After the apparent chaos of the conference so far, Starmer has got key party reforms in place:

Labour backs Sir Keir Starmer over party rules reforms

The changes - opposed by many on the left - give MPs more say in choosing future Labour leaders.

www.bbc.co.uk

Labour's annual conference has voted in favour of Sir Keir Starmer's plans to overhaul the party's rules.
The changes give MPs more of a say in choosing its future leaders and make it harder for members to deselect MPs.
The party also backed setting up an independent complaints process for claims of racism, following the controversy over anti-Semitism.
Sir Keir called the changes a "major step" towards Labour winning a general election, having lost four in a row.
His party-rule changes mean that, in future, leadership candidates will need the support of 20% of Labour MPs - rather than the current 10% - to get on to a party-wide ballot.
They also make it harder for local parties to deselect sitting MPs, while the rule allowing "registered supporters", who pay a one-off fee to vote in leadership elections, is scrapped.
The left-wing Momentum group called these changes a "self-inflicted blow to democracy in our party".

The reforms followed an afternoon of impassioned debate at the Brighton Centre.
Opposing these plans, James McAsh, from Camberwell and Peckham, south London, told Labour delegates the higher MPs' support threshold for leadership candidates would make contests "maler and staler" and prevent "informed debate".
Agnes Tolmie, of the Unite union, said: "Most people out there do not understand [the plans] and are not interested in them. They want to know what we are doing for them."
But there were also heartfelt speeches in favour of Sir Keir's plans, with supporters arguing they would allow the party to become less inward-looking and focus on winning elections.
Helena Dollimore, a councillor in Mitcham, south London, said: "We are at our best as a Labour movement when we are out in our communities, listening to residents and getting stuff done."
She added: "I was at primary school the last time Labour won an election and I don't want to be drawing my pension the next time."
Shabana Mahmood, MP for Birmingham Small Heath, argued: "If you can't persuade 20% of your Parliamentary colleagues to back you, you will struggle to persuade the people of this country to make you their prime minister."
On Friday, Sir Keir was forced to drop more thorough constitutional reform proposals - including the replacement of the one-member-one-vote system for choosing leaders with more say for MPs and unions - amid widespread opposition from the party's left wing.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oh dear….

Wrong to say that only women have a cervix, says Keir Starmer

MP Rosie Duffield staying away from Brighton gathering over online threats

www.independent.co.uk

Apparently it’s wrong to say only women have Cervix’s in Starmer’s wokey world view and somehow this is supposed to endear the working class voters, how?

I watched that interview and I didn’t hear Starmer didn’t say anything of the sort. The message seemed to be that the conference is a safe place to go and there the debate should happen.

At about 00:35 into the video @NorthKent1989 referenced:

Andrew Marr: Is it transphobic to say that only women have a cervix?
Keir Starmer: No. It is something that shouldn't be said, it is not right. But Andrew I don't think that...
Andrew Marr: So Rosie Duffield should not have said that. Can you explain to people watching why she should not have said that?
(Keir Starmer evades this question and talks about something else instead.)

Looks to me like @NorthKent1989 is correct. (Small proviso that, in the linked article, the Independent quoted something that is a paraphrase of Keir's words rather than his exact words)

 

[Purple Orange]

At about 00:35 into the video @NorthKent1989 referenced:

Andrew Marr: Is it transphobic to say that only women have a cervix?
Keir Starmer: No. It is something that shouldn't be said, it is not right. But Andrew I don't think that...
Andrew Marr: So Rosie Duffield should not have said that. Can you explain to people watching why she should not have said that?
(Keir Starmer evades this question and talks about something else instead.)

So he didn't use the exact words that the Independent is quoting but what he said amounts to the same thing.

And a yes/no gotcha question should be evaded. The issue is still a very real debate regardless of whether you or I have come to a conclusion one way or the other. There are so many nuanced arguments and it is difficult to keep track. Do I believe trans-women are women and trans-men are men? Yes I do. Has the debate stopped? No, people are still arguing about it to a far greater level of detail than I can comprehend.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It won't need "right wing media" for the electorate to see that Rayner's outburst makes her unfit to hold any position of power or authority.

Agreed. Calling someone, Etonian piece of scum, racist, homophobic, and misogynist, all in one sentence, in a public meeting, is abuse, pure and simple. In an age when abuse of people has become rife and a huge problem online, the last thing we need is the deputy leader of a major political party effectively joining in. If Labour had any decency, Angela Rayner would be being told to either apologise and withdraw the remarks, or be sacked as deputy leader (if that's possible, I'm not sure if the Labour constitution allows it).

 

[Taunton]

It won't need "right wing media" for the electorate to see that Rayner's outburst makes her unfit to hold any position of power or authority.

Well from the comments at the "party", looks like once again Rayner can't hold her drink either. Bit like Charles Kennedy.

 

[colchesterken]

Glad I did not take O level biology I would have failed, I hope I dont have a cervix hidden away, inside,

 

[JamesT]

Glad I did not take O level biology I would have failed, I hope I dont have a cervix hidden away, inside,

Cervix is latin for 'neck'. So you almost certainly have many cervix in your body, just not presumably a cervix uteri.

 

[AY1975]

I think this article from the FT sums up the challenges facing Labour pretty well: Keir Starmer has little time to win over UK voters (msn.com)

 

[brad465]

I think this article from the FT sums up the challenges facing Labour pretty well: Keir Starmer has little time to win over UK voters (msn.com)

Many, including Labour supporters, don't believe it's possible for them to get a majority from their current position. This is why there's plenty of talk of electoral pacts, whether official (stand down candidates in key seats) or de facto (stand candidates in all seats but don't campaign properly in key seats, as was the case in Chesham and Amersham), where Labour's best hope is a hung Parliament in which they can lead some form of coalition, especially as the Tories don't really have any friends to go into coalition with now.

 

[AY1975]

Many, including Labour supporters, don't believe it's possible for them to get a majority from their current position. This is why there's plenty of talk of electoral pacts, whether official (stand down candidates in key seats) or de facto (stand candidates in all seats but don't campaign properly in key seats, as was the case in Chesham and Amersham)

And as happened in the 1997 General Election, when I believe that Labour and the Lib Dems stood candidates in all seats (except Tatton where Martin Bell stood as an independent anti-sleaze candidate and won, and both Labour and the Lib Dems stood aside to give him a clear run) but agreed to refrain from actively campaigning in each other's target seats.

I am also waiting with baited breath to see whether the Labour Party conference votes for the motion on Proportional Representation (which I believe is due to be debated this afternoon). No doubt there will be a variety of views on PR on here, which potentially warrants a separate thread.

 

[SuperNova]

And the Labour left strategic nonsense continues thanks to the rather unimpressive Andy McDonald. Co-ordinated tweets from the usual left cranks on Starmer too.

 

[swt_passenger]

And the Labour left strategic nonsense continues thanks to the rather unimpressive Andy McDonald. Co-ordinated tweets from the usual left cranks on Starmer too.

I happened to have Radio 2 news on at 1800. They reported that “someone you’ve never heard of has just resigned from a job you didn’t know existed”; or words to that effect. A neat summary.

 

[Cowley]

I happened to have Radio 2 news on at 1800. They reported that “someone you’ve never heard of has just resigned from a job you didn’t know existed”; or words to that effect. A neat summary.

Yep. I don’t think many of the general public could give a monkeys about Labour at the moment and probably couldn’t name many of the opposition front bench.
Personally I’m not interested remotely in what any of the party’s actually are, I’d just like a competent opposition that’s in a position to take over from this current shower once the opportunity arises. I’m not interested in people who wear a particular colour of rosette. I just want something better than what we have now and I know that I’m not the only one who feels that way.

 

[SuperNova]

Yep. I don’t think many of the general public could give a monkeys about Labour at the moment and probably couldn’t name many of the opposition front bench.
Personally I’m not interested remotely in what any of the party’s actually are, I’d just like a competent opposition that’s in a position to take over from this current shower once the opportunity arises. I’m not interested in people who wear a particular colour of rosette. I just want something better than what we have now and I know that I’m not the only one who feels that way.

Preaching to the choir. Not sure Starmer's got the fire Kinnock had in calling out the militant left though.

 

[Cowley]

Preaching to the choir. Not sure Starmer's got the fire Kinnock had in calling out the militant left though.

Yes I think you’re right about that. Starmer does actually come out pretty well when you hear him interviewed in a relaxed setting, but he just can’t get that side of himself across and unfortunately I think that’s what will do for him in the end - He’s just a bit wooden… That shouldn’t matter of course but we live in a world where it actually does.
Where they go next is the question. Right now I’m not feeling too positive about the answer though unfortunately…

 

[edwin_m]

Seems the Labour conference has rejected proportional representation, with union votes overriding the wishes of party members. This would seem to close off one of their few possible routes to power.

 

[JamesT]

Seems the Labour conference has rejected proportional representation, with union votes overriding the wishes of party members. This would seem to close off one of their few possible routes to power.

They would have to get into power first to implement PR. Which experience shows results in a distinct cooling of enthusiasm for alternative voting systems.

 

[Purple Orange]

They would have to get into power first to implement PR. Which experience shows results in a distinct cooling of enthusiasm for alternative voting systems.

The only realistic way PR can come in is through a coalition government where the minority party benefits from PR. If only the Lib Dems had not capitulated to the Tories in 2011, we’d have had a meaningful vote on PR, rather than the useless AV method.