Super off peak ticket - can I join at a later station?

[Annie 62]

Can I buy a super off peak return from Manchester to London (West Midland /tfw) but start and end the journey at Stockport? The train stops at Stockport. Thank you

 

[Royston Vasey]

Normally yes, as "break of journey" is normally allowed, just check the restriction code text on the National Rail website to check any specific exceptions. Time restrictions apply as if you had joined at Manchester, so you can't join a train at Stockport that you couldn't have joined at Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can I buy a super off peak return from Manchester to London (West Midland /tfw) but start and end the journey at Stockport? The train stops at Stockport. Thank you

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Break of journey is not permitted on the outward so you can't do it on the outward. You can do it on the return. Stockport is gated so it's hard to say if there would be actual issues or not.

If you are willing to take an hour's delay on the chin, a workaround is to buy a single to Manchester, use it to go through the barriers, then ask the guard if they mind you joining at Stockport. If they say they do mind, go to Manchester and back.

 

[py_megapixel]

If you are buying this ticket https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt=OPR
(super offpeak return Manchester Stns to London Terminals, route WMR/LNR/TFW ONLY)

then you can get off at Stockport on the return journey, but you can't get on at Stockport on the outward journey

 

[Royston Vasey]

Normally yes, as "break of journey" is normally allowed, just check the restriction code text on the National Rail website to check any specific exceptions. Time restrictions apply as if you had joined at Manchester, so you can't join a train at Stockport that you couldn't have joined at Manchester.

As as @Bletchleyite has found, this is one of those specific exceptions on this ticket. The Any Permitted and Via Chesterfield (to St Pancras) routes look to allow BoJ on the outbound but are much more expensive. Apologies.

 

[Watershed]

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

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Break of journey is not permitted on the outward so you can't do it on the outward. You can do it on the return. Stockport is gated so it's hard to say if there would be actual issues or not.

If you are willing to take an hour's delay on the chin, a workaround is to buy a single to Manchester, use it to go through the barriers, then ask the guard if they mind you joining at Stockport. If they say they do mind, go to Manchester and back.

The restriction code does not reference any break of journey restrictions and neither does the ticket type inherently bar BoJ.

That is what OP would be told when buying their ticket, and therefore BoJ is permitted.

 

[Annie 62]

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Break of journey is not permitted on the outward so you can't do it on the outward. You can do it on the return. Stockport is gated so it's hard to say if there would be actual issues or not.

If you are willing to take an hour's delay on the chin, a workaround is to buy a single to Manchester, use it to go through the barriers, then ask the guard if they mind you joining at Stockport. If they say they do mind, go to Manchester and back.

If you are buying this ticket https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt=OPR
(super offpeak return Manchester Stns to London Terminals, route WMR/LNR/TFW ONLY)

then you can get off at Stockport on the return journey, but you can't get on at Stockport on the outward journey

Normally yes, as "break of journey" is normally allowed, just check the restriction code text on the National Rail website to check any specific exceptions. Time restrictions apply as if you had joined at Manchester, so you can't join a train at Stockport that you couldn't have joined at Manchester.

Not sure how to reply but thanks for all responses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The restriction code does not reference any break of journey restrictions and neither does the ticket type inherently bar BoJ.

That is what OP would be told when buying their ticket, and therefore BoJ is permitted.

The ticket type (OPR rather than SSR) does inherently bar BoJ.

Whether it does it quite right or not is for debate, but that's the sort of thing you argue in Court, not with staff on the day, at least not if you want to get where you're going.

 

[JonathanH]

The restriction code does not reference any break of journey restrictions and neither does the ticket type inherently bar BoJ.

That is what OP would be told when buying their ticket, and therefore BoJ is permitted.

The linked page says

VALIDITY
One journey in each direction to be made within:
Outward Validity: SEE RESTRICTNS (1 day)
Break of journey is not permitted
Return Validity: SEE RESTRICTNS (1 month)

In practice until we have compulsory 'compostage' (and the growth of e-tickets would be a superb way to implement that linking right back to the personal details given when the ticket was bought) the only thing stopping starting short / ending short is ticket inspections at those points or an eagle-eyed onboard check.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In practice until we have compulsory 'compostage' (and the growth of e-tickets would be a superb way to implement that) the only thing stopping starting short / ending short is ticket inspections at those points or an eagle-eyed onboard check.

Or the gateline at Stockport. They might just let it through, but they won't necessarily.

 

[Annie 62]

The ticket type (OPR rather than SSR) does inherently bar BoJ.

Whether it does it quite right or not is for debate, but that's the sort of thing you argue in Court, not with staff on the day, at least not if you want to get where you're going.

Looking at the link you kindly sent me it looks like there are no break of journey restrictions on the off peak ticket so might go for that. Don't want any problems!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the link you kindly sent me it looks like there are no break of journey restrictions on the off peak ticket so might go for that. Don't want any problems!

Correct, there are no break of journey restrictions on the Off Peak TfW/WMR/LNR ticket for an extra tenner. You therefore are allowed to join with this at Stockport. Also gives you more time flexibility.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm intrigued that the TfW/WMR/LNR tickets aren't available to/from Stockport and only Manchester instead.

 

[sonic2009]

The restriction code does not reference any break of journey restrictions and neither does the ticket type inherently bar BoJ.

That is what OP would be told when buying their ticket, and therefore BoJ is permitted.

I agree with this also, and as mentioned here on NRE, there's nothing mentioned in the tickets restriction code either.

Super Off-Peak Return
DescriptionOff-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy. You may be required to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route. Ticket code
OPR, SOP, SSR, SPR, SK9

Class
Standard

Single or return
Return

Include TOCsGreater Anglia; Transport for Wales; c2c; Chiltern Railways; CrossCountry; East Midlands Railway; Great Western Railway; TransPennine Express; Gatwick Express; Grand Central; Great Northern; Heathrow Express; Hull Trains; Island Line; London Northwestern Railway; West Midlands Railway; London Overground; London Underground; Merseyrail; Northern; ScotRail; South Western Railway; Southeastern; Southern; Stansted Express; TfL Rail; Thameslink; Avanti West Coast; LNER;Validity

	Outward validity	Return validity
Day	Super Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for outward travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following day. If you cannot complete your journey on the same day you will be allowed to finish it the following day - see 'Break of journey' below.	Super Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for return travel within one calendar month from the start date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 after last day of validity.
Time	The National Rail Journey Planner will automatically work out which tickets are valid for your journey. The times when you may use your Off-Peak ticket are indicated by a Restriction Code applicable to the journey you are making. This can be viewed by clicking the link from the Journey Planner ticket terms and conditions page once you have made your selection. The Restriction Code is a two character (alpha-numeric) code. This is shown on most tickets and the meaning can be found by going to www.nationalrail.co.uk/XX [where 'XX' is the two character code]. You will also be advised of the restriction when buying your ticket.	The National Rail Journey Planner will automatically work out which tickets are valid for your journey. The times when you may use your Off-Peak ticket are indicated by a Restriction Code applicable to the journey you are making. This can be viewed by clicking the link from the Journey Planner ticket terms and conditions page once you have made your selection. The Restriction Code is a two character (alpha-numeric) code. This is shown on most tickets and the meaning can be found by going to www.nationalrail.co.uk/XX [where 'XX' is the two character code]. You will also be advised of the restriction when buying your ticket.

Break of journey

	Permitted	Permitted
	Break of journey is permitted on the outward portion of a Super Off-Peak Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code. Overnight break of journey - if the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriate restrictions for the actual day on which travel is being undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Friday restrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day.	Break of journey is permitted on the return portion of a Super Off-Peak Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.

Availability

• Purchase location
• Ticket offices and travel centres, self-service ticket machines at stations, rail-appointed travel agents, online at most train company websites or through other online retailers or train company telesales offices.
• Purchase availability
• Tickets can be bought in advance or immediately before travel.
  
• Pre-booking requirement
• None.
• Reservations compulsory
• No, but you can reserve a seat on many longer distance services and reservations are recommended on busy services. Please note that some train services are designated as reservation only, regardless of ticket held.

Discounts

Child	Yes	Children (aged 5 to 15 inclusive) are offered a 50% discount. Up to two children aged under 5 can travel free with each fare paying passenger.
Railcard	Yes	A 34% discount is available to holders of the following Railcards: Disabled Persons Railcard, Veterans Railcard, Family & Friends Railcard, HM Forces Railcard, Senior Railcard, Two Together Railcard, 16-25 Railcard, or 26-30 Railcard. 50% discount for 16-17 Saver. See terms & conditions of individual Railcard for time restrictions.
Group	No

Refund & Changes

• Changes to travel plan
• If you wish to change your time of travel you can pay the difference between the cost of the ticket held and the cost of the ticket that is most appropriate for the journey you need to make. In many cases, if you are still travelling at a time when your ticket is not restricted, no additional fare is payable.
  If you wish to change the date of travel, or the origin or destination of your ticket, it may be necessary to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your existing ticket (see Refund Policy below).
• Refund policy
• Your ticket is refundable. If you decide not to use your ticket to make all or part of your intended journey then you can get a refund by returning your unused ticket to the ticket office or place of purchase (for tickets bought via websites, telesales or travel agents) within 28 days of the ticket expiry date.
  You may be required to pay an administration fee (up to a maximum of £10 per ticket). The refund amount will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.

General Conditions

• General conditions of use
• The outward part of the ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by the unused return part of the same ticket.
  Off-Peak tickets may require you to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route. Website journey planners can tell you when your ticket can be used - simply enter your outward and return journey times to see the trains you can travel on. If you board a train at a time when your Off-Peak ticket is not valid, you will be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid fare for the service concerned. In some circumstances you may have to pay a penalty fare.
  If the route shown on the ticket has a + or † symbol then the ticket includes the cost of travelling between certain London Stations (e.g. between Liverpool Street and Paddington) by either London Underground, Docklands Light Railway (DLR) or Thameslink services as appropriate to the route of the journey being made. Tickets will only be accepted by London Underground and DLR up to the last day of validity of the ticket and until 04:29 the following day. Other than to change trains, a break of journey at intermediate London Underground or DLR stations is not permitted.
  All tickets and travel are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[Watershed]

Correct, there are no break of journey restrictions on the Off Peak TfW/WMR/LNR ticket for an extra tenner. You therefore are allowed to join with this at Stockport. Also gives you more time flexibility.

The Off-Peak Return is undoubtedly a sensible option if OP can afford it - £10 extra gets you into London for a much more sensible time, and vice versa.

But - you are concerning OP unnecessarily. The "restrictions" you refer to are purely a fragment of the fares data - part of the rail industry's internal systems and processes. OP does not need to concern themselves with this.

If you look up whether you can break your journey on a Super Off-Peak Return (for example this link that is shown on the booking page on Trainsplit), you will be told:

Break of journey is permitted on the outward portion of a Super Off-Peak Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.

If you look up the restriction code, you will see there are only time restrictions, not BoJ restrictions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, this is an argument you have in Court. Legal technicalities are not going to change the view of a member of gateline staff who doesn't want to let you through. It is clear that the TOC intends break of journey to be prohibited on these tickets, and more specifically the reason the TOC intends that is to avoid them being used to avoid paying higher fares because they aren't available on every flow - as is the case here. Though I suspect Stockport is an unintentional omission.

 

[Watershed]

Again, this is an argument you have in Court. Legal technicalities are not going to change the view of a member of gateline staff who doesn't want to let you through. It is clear that the TOC intends break of journey to be prohibited on these tickets, and more specifically the reason the TOC intends that is to avoid them being used to avoid paying higher fares because they aren't available on every flow - as is the case here.

Nothing is going to Court because, with respect, gateline staff aren't told of the existence of an electronic fares data feed, let alone what it says about this particular ticket.

I really think you are reading more into this than there is.

It's a flexible ticket and it will be accepted for break of journey (at the appropriate times) just the same as any other flexible ticket.

Stop causing the OP unnecessary worry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing is going to Court because, with respect, gateline staff aren't told of the existence of an electronic fares data feed, let alone what it says about this particular ticket.

I really think you are reading more into this than there is.

It's a flexible ticket and it will be accepted for break of journey (at the appropriate times) just the same as any other flexible ticket.

Stop causing the OP unnecessary worry.

It is a ticket where the TOC has intentionally prohibited break of journey on the outward (and thus starting/ending short). For some reason LNR has chosen to do this by creating a new ticket type and applying the restriction to that rather than using the standard ticket type SSR and putting it in the restriction code. It has done this for all its Super Off Peaks, not just that one, and the reason is that they and their restrictions undercut quite a number of fares south of Northampton.

There is a very good chance they would get away with it, but not a 100% chance (if we were talking Euston gateline I'd say much lower, but Stockport isn't Euston). If the OP was willing to accept an hour's delay in this case to pop to Manchester and back, then it would probably be worth trying anyway.

Secondarily to that there seems to be a legal technicality in the NRCoT which might possibly make the way the TOC has done this have no legal weight. This, however, is a bit like using "Thameslink Only" tickets on Gatwick Express - spend the time pursuing it afterwards and you will likely get a remedy, but that takes a load of your time, as does being denied boarding or hanging around at a gateline to be incorrectly issued a PF. A lot of people on here like to be legal/consumer champions, and good on them. But if I just want to get somewhere, it is not worth £10 of my time to do that.

It is only right that we advise the OP on that whole package, not suggest that it is allowed when the TOC has quite deliberately (but slightly wrongly) set things up that it is not.

 

[ainsworth74]

For some reason LNR has chosen to do this by creating a new ticket type and applying the restriction to that rather than using the standard ticket type SSR and putting it in the restriction code. It has done this for all its Super Off Peaks, not just that one, and the reason is that they and their restrictions undercut quite a number of fares south of Northampton.

Have they?

Ticket type
Super Off-Peak Return
Description: Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy. You may be required to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route.

Ticket code: OPR, SOP, SSR, SPR, SK9

OPR is included as the ticket codes covered by Super Off-Peak Returns and it clearly states later than Break of Journey is permitted on the outward unless a specific restriction is applied by a restriction code which, in this case, isn't.

 

[Starmill]

It is a ticket where the TOC has intentionally prohibited break of journey on the outward (and thus starting/ending short).

I think that this is definitely incorrect:

BREAK OF JOURNEY
You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

No other information is provided, so it seems clear cut enough to me.

 

[Watershed]

It is a ticket where the TOC has intentionally prohibited break of journey on the outward (and thus starting/ending short). For some reason LNR has chosen to do this by creating a new ticket type and applying the restriction to that rather than using the standard ticket type SSR and putting it in the restriction code. It has done this for all its Super Off Peaks, not just that one, and the reason is that they and their restrictions undercut quite a number of fares south of Northampton.

There is a very good chance they would get away with it, but not a 100% chance (if we were talking Euston gateline I'd say much lower, but Stockport isn't Euston). If the OP was willing to accept an hour's delay in this case to pop to Manchester and back, then it would probably be worth trying anyway.

Secondarily to that there seems to be a legal technicality in the NRCoT which might possibly make the way the TOC has done this have no legal weight. This, however, is a bit like using "Thameslink Only" tickets on Gatwick Express - spend the time pursuing it afterwards and you will likely get a remedy, but that takes a load of your time, as does being denied boarding or hanging around at a gateline to be incorrectly issued a PF. A lot of people on here like to be legal/consumer champions, and good on them. But if I just want to get somewhere, it is not worth £10 of my time to do that.

It is only right that we advise the OP on that whole package, not suggest that it is allowed when the TOC has quite deliberately (but slightly wrongly) set things up that it is not.

As far as passengers, staff and everyone on the ground is concerned, a Super Off-Peak Return is a Super Off-Peak Return. No-one gives a flying fig whether the internal system code for that is SSR, OPR or XYZ. If there was an intention to restrict break of journey it would be contained in the restriction code. It isn't and so BoJ is fine.

There is nothing about this which remotely relies on any kind of technicality. If you go to the ticket office and ask "can I break my journey?" they will say yes. If you buy your ticket online and look up the ticket details it will say "break of journey is permitted". If you buy your ticket from a ticket machine (or look at your ticket once it's been issued), the restriction code will say nothing about BoJ being barred.

The only technicality here is relying on something in the internal industry systems, which a site intended for power-users happens to have published, to claim that BoJ is barred (or even intended to be). If BR Fares didn't exist, you wouldn't be here arguing the toss.

 

[Starmill]

I'm intrigued that the TfW/WMR/LNR tickets aren't available to/from Stockport and only Manchester instead.

They're also unavailable in Travelcard or Season format, and unavailable to anywhere other than London Euston. The Advance tickets still don't work properly with the quota on TfW either. All of these points are in contrast to Liverpool and Runcorn to London, for example. I think it's down to what WMT had time to set up and put through rather than any lack of desire to offer it.

No-one gives a flying fig whether the internal system code for that is SSR, OPR or XYZ.

Indeed. And nobody will even know just from looking at a ticket.

For the benefit of the OP I've purchased this ticket at Stockport ticket office before, it didn't open the gate but it was let in without questions and then the ticket was accepted on the train that I boarded 10 minutes later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as passengers, staff and everyone on the ground is concerned, a Super Off-Peak Return is a Super Off-Peak Return. No-one gives a flying fig whether the internal system code for that is SSR, OPR or XYZ. If there was an intention to restrict break of journey it would be contained in the restriction code. It isn't and so BoJ is fine.

It used to be, but fairly recently LNR moved the restriction into the ticket type code.

Surprisingly it seems from above that their own retail system doesn't implement that, and so if the OP purchases the ticket from there then the contract would exist as per what that site shows, which might be a reasonable way to handle the situation without extra cost.

 

[Kite159]

Or the gateline at Stockport. They might just let it through, but they won't necessarily.

Assuming both gatelines are active and not just left open.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think that this is definitely incorrect:

View attachment 103224View attachment 103225


No other information is provided, so it seems clear cut enough to me.

I agree with you. National Rail website validity finder for JN states no BoJ limitations and the fare setting TOC's website states specifically as you've shown that BoJ is permitted. Whether or not the NR page this is correct (and we all know the NR website is a mess) it should surely be considered as authoritative.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx

JN

We were talking about the online T&Cs during purchase forming the "contract" with the railway yesterday; I'd be satisfied on this basis that I could break my journey.

If it was me in the OP's position, I would buy the Off Peak Return and count £10 as the price of an easy life, as gatelines will know a lot less than this forum knows or can find out (which can work both ways). I know that many in this parish wouldn't pay the extra £10, and they would seem entitled to do so.

 

[Haywain]

Looking at the ticket on a ticket office TIS, it's quite clear in stating that break of journey is permitted.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Assuming both gatelines are active and not just left open.

Stockport's gatelines are now active from early to late every day, rather than only in the peaks as in the past.

 

[Starmill]

Stockport's gatelines are now active from early to late every day, rather than only in the peaks as in the past.

They're supposed to be, but they're still often not. It amused me greatly that they actually put signs up showing the gating hours, so if you wanted to you could turn up at just the right time for them to be open!

 

[CHAPS2034]

They're supposed to be, but they're still often not.

Not been my experience in the last month or so, but then I'm only through there mid evening a couple of times a week at most

 

[P Binnersley]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage describe a break of journey as

16.1. Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.

As you are still making your journey in one go you should be Ok.

Unfortunately this is in Section 16 which is titled

16. BREAK OF JOURNEY

Section 16 then goes on to say

16.3 Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.

With the warning that

16.4. If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

Break of Journey and using tickets to/from another station used to be separate sections. Unfortunately merging them has confused the issue