Appalling Treatment by South Western Railway

[robbeech]

In all cases where the passenger is at fault, if they behaved themselves there would be no need for a dispute.

However, (and here's a kick in the teeth for the employees) if the Railway staff concerned had more than a trickle of the knowledge they should have, and didn't have such strong anti customer views (whether they stem from the above issues or not) then there would rarely be need for remarks and complaints, sarcastic or otherwise.

If railway staff keep abusing their power, keep taking advantage of the almost entirely unregulated nature of the railway itself, keep taking the revenue positive option, keep playing with their customers livelihoods then these customers will keep complaining, and some of them will be abusive. It is NO justification for it, but it WILL happen and the railway should understand this.

Railway staff get enough unjustified abuse as it is, it's worrying that they don't see the problem with poking the bear so to speak when they treat their customers like dirt, and it's unfair on the bulk of the staff who are professional.

 

[1955LR]

I firmly believe that one should address all correspondence to the Company concerned and not any individual unless one is specifically advised and then it would for the "attention off" and not directly to them in person. This put the whole correspondence in a different light, both by the sender and receiver and helps moderate the language used such that any chance of an allegation of bullying is significantly reduced . My view is that Correspondence with a company should never be on a personal level , by either party.

 

[adc82140]

I have a lot of experience dealing with customer service teams, both railway and not, from two decades of commuting during the dark days of early SWT and Thames Trains, and by virtue of the fact I'm utterly intolerant of people not being able to do their jobs properly.

I accept this is often due to poor levels of training. I find that being "nice" throughout the process gets you a long way.

My particular style is "nice but stubborn", in that I'm not going away until my problem is sorted, but I'll never get annoyed. My record is 86 minutes on the phone to Vodafone, knowing that they will never hang up on me. In the end, they caved in and asked what it would take to end the call. The answer was simple- "release me from my contract".

One of my favourite phrases, always said in a friendly manner is "this is rather embarrassing for you/your company".

I deal with complaints as part of my job. The one thing we are told to ask the complainant is "what can we do to put this right", or "what ideally would you like us to do next". This disarms the people who don't have a clue what they'd like the outcome to be, but want to have a good old rant. If their response is silly, like "I want x person sacked" they are not going to get what they want, and will be told that due process will be followed in private if necessary.

Quite often all they want is an assurance that there won't be a repeat, and that lessons will be learnt. Back to the OP's situation, I'd be happy with an apology, refund, and assurances that there would be a staff training bulletin issued, and I would expressly ask for this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The response re "tone" would be in response to what may appear to the recipient of your comment as a sarcastic and thus bullying comment. Bullying is taken very seriously indeed and if brought to the attention of the individuals manager they (the manager) are duty bound to investigate and take appropriate action.

Expressing dissatisfaction in a sarcastic manner is not bullying. Claiming it is is hiding behind a false pretence in order to avoid serving the customer properly. This situation is the fault of the company, who don't provide enough time for staff to take in what a letter says.

Personal insults are not acceptable (e.g calling someone an idiot, or worse bringing in an irrelevant protected characteristic), but questioning if someone has read something properly if they clearly haven't is completely acceptable. I have sadly had to do it many, many times and will continue to do so when it is clear that the recipient has clearly skimmed rather than properly reading the communication I have sent to them.

Yes it does rely on context but learning to roll with sarcastic comments and being mean is a sad statement. Who knows what effects absorbing such comments have in peoples physical and mental health,

Unfortunately I am not able to cite them, but in employment tribunals there have been cases where what may have been taken by some to be mild sarcastic remarks have been deemed by the tribunal panel to be a form of bullying.

Agreed but one of the issues is the problem of escalation where one remark may be "brushed off" because it is not an insult, but subsequent remarks may be offensive and thus can not be brushed off.

This, by and large, is in the Company's hands to resolve by not cheaping out and disregarding the customer's experience from start to finish, as most TOCs seem to unfailingly manage to do.

 

[zero]

I don't find the comments in question to be sarcastic or bullying.

If I've written a letter or email complaint and the response is completely irrelevant to any of the problems I raised, it is simply a fact that the customer service agent has either not read my complaint, or does not have the skills to process the content of my message.

This has happened to me several times and I don't think it is appropriate to make a personal comment about someone's skills or the lack of them; I will just reply with the fact that the agent has not read my complaint as they have not responded to the points raised, and I will then include the previous message again.

As the company hasn't responded to the points I raised, it is impossible for them to argue that they did.

 

[Coolzac]

I have had a response from SWR. What does everyone think?

Dear Mr .....,

Thank you for contacting us.

I’m sorry that your journey didn’t go as planned and that you had such an experience. We train our staff to give excellent customer service. We expect staff to treat customers pleasantly and courteously, even if it’s not possible to meet every request. It's disappointing if a staff member hasn't met the standards we expect.

It is true that you can travel without a ticket if you’re given authorisation from a staff member, but they will need to provide you with something from them to prove that. I’m happy to refund the additional ticket purchased on this occasion, please can you send us an email with a picture of the ticket you’re claiming a refund for and the tickets purchased for the journey.

National Rail Enquires manage the website that contains the information and therefore they are the only ones that can make amends on the website. Please see below how they can be reached:

National Rail Enquiries
Customer Relations Team
Suite 410, 1 Northumberland Avenue
Trafalgar Square
London. WC2N 5BW

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 0800 022 3720

I’ve let the Station Manager know about your complaint so that he/she can carry out a full investigation. I can’t let you know the results of it. However, I can assure you that we take all feedback such as yours seriously. Thanks again for taking the time to tell us what happened. Once again, I’m sorry for any upset or distress caused.

Thank you for contacting South Western Railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is true that you can travel without a ticket if you’re given authorisation from a staff member, but they will need to provide you with something from them to prove that.

If only staff actually did that. I know our resident "superguard" does, but so many don't.

While that contains some standard paragraphs it does sound like they have read it and are also offering a refund. So that's as close to a good outcome as I reckon you'll get.

 

[Wolfie]

If only staff actually did that. I know our resident "superguard" does, but so many don't.

While that contains some standard paragraphs it does sound like they have read it and are also offering a refund. So that's as close to a good outcome as I reckon you'll get.

Yup, smacks of post-facto rationalisation by SWR but the desired end result.

 

[yorkie]

Its okay but they should not have said "but they will need to provide you with something from them to prove that" and they should also not have said "on this occasion"; I interpret this as implying the customer is somehow at fault and/or is lucky this time.

However given how appallingly the rail industry behaves at times, it's not as bad as it could have been. It's not exactly an industry that values its customers.

 

[Watershed]

It's not a very satisfactory response - there is no promise to rebrief staff as to the validity of verbal permission and indeed they deny that such permission is even possible.

But I fear you're going to struggle to get anywhere with this one, seeing as ultimately they are still offering you the money they owe you.

It's a damning indictment of the state of the industry's customer service, but I reckon this is probably about as good a response as you could have expected.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's a damning indictment of the state of the industry's customer service, but I reckon this is probably about as good a response as you could have expected.

So very true.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's an unsatisfactory response myself, because it neatly refuses to admit that the company were incorrect.

Some elements of the letter are also wrong, the claim that you must be given something in writing is misleading. The company may have internal policies in place concerning that, but they don't elaborate so we don't know. They're wrong that verbal only authority is somehow not possible.

However, from a practical perspective, and assuming you're refunded the correct amount, it's probably the best it was ever likely to get. I think that there is next to no chance of an improvement in customer service on the back of the investigation they are proposing to conduct.

 

[T-Karmel]

Its okay but they should not have said "but they will need to provide you with something from them to prove that"

What they meant, but obviously what they didn't explain here, is that every SWR employee is equipped with vouchers which they could (and should) issue to customer in such situation that they can show to other members of SWR staff on arrival and that proves authorisation and then RP in Waterloo would just issue the right ticket that couldn't be issued before.

Unfortunately a lot of staff isn't very keen on issuing those vouchers and here we are.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I'm furious at how I have been treated by SWR this morning.

My journey was Wandsworth Town to Islip. The ticket I wanted to purchase was the £21.10 day return via London with a Network Railcard discount.

I went to catch the 10.02 train from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo, as this would give me enough time to catch the 10.50 from Paddington to Oxford. I know this isn't an advertised connection but it's one I can easily make. I get to the ticket machine but it won't sell me the ticket as its just before 10.00. I cant wait until 10 as I may miss the train. I explain this to the man at the barrier, who understands the issue and lets me through, telling me to buy the ticket at the barrier at Waterloo.

I get to the barrier at Waterloo, and I explain this. However, when I attempted to buy the ticket I wanted I was refused. Instead, despite me carefully explaining that I had the permission of not only railway staff but a member of their company, they said I shouldn't have boarded the train and waited for the next one. Or that I should have got off at Clapham Junction and bought the ticket there. They also said that I could have been lying about the man at the barrier, and in any case, the man at the barrier was wrong. I said why should I be charged extra for a mistake made by someone from your company, but it fell on deaf ears. They refused to sell me the ticket I needed or to let me through, so I was forced to by a £3.80 single from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo to get me through the barrier. If she could sell me that, why did she refuse to sell me my required ticket?

I then went to the ticket office to complain to a manager. I carefully explained all the events, and then the manager then told me I was lucky not to be charged a penalty fare! I was done with arguing by this point so just left angry and frustrated.

I find this treatment absolutely disgraceful!

Firstly-

What will be the best avenue of complaint?

Secondly-

Is it right they are telling people to not take valid journeys because the ticket machines won't sell the required tickets before 10.00?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Discounts are only applied when purchased before boarding where a journey begins at a station with ticket purchasing facilities. I have to say, the station master was right when he said you were lucky not to be Penalty Fared. You could complain about the wrong advice given to you at Wandsworth, but it will be your word against his. Just remember allow time to purchase your tickets before boarding in future.

 

[Wolfie]

Discounts are only applied when purchased before boarding where a journey begins at a station with ticket purchasing facilities. I have to say, the station master was right when he said you were lucky not to be Penalty Fared. You could complain about the wrong advice given to you at Wandsworth, but it will be your word against his. Just remember allow time to purchase your tickets before boarding in future.

The original post talks about trying to use a ticket machine that wouldn't sell the relevant ticket until a time which meant that the required train couldn't be caught. What isn't clear to me is if there was a ticket office and if it was open. If the answer to both questions is yes then you are spot on. If the answer to either was no then, unless l've missed something, l don't immediately see how the original poster getting there earlier would have made the slightest difference.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The original post talks about trying to use a ticket machine that wouldn't sell the relevant ticket until a time which meant that the required train couldn't be caught. What isn't clear to me is if there was a ticket office and if it was open. If the answer to both questions is yes then you are spot on. If the answer to either was no then, unless l've missed something, l don't immediately see how the original poster getting there earlier would have made the slightest difference.

National Rail Enquiries state that the ticket office is open from 06:40, so it would have been open. I do sympathise with the original poster, as this certainly isn't a passenger friendly way of doing business. However, there is no way I'd have boarded a train sans tix without written permission.

 

[Haywain]

National Rail Enquiries state that the ticket office is open from 06:40, so it would have been open. I do sympathise with the original poster, as this certainly isn't a passenger friendly way of doing business. However, there is no way I'd have boarded a train sans tix without written permission.

However, we seem to have established that the station does not actually have a ticket office.

 

[NoOnesFool]

However, we seem to have established that the station does not actually have a ticket office.

How strange!

 

[Darandio]

How strange!

Read back through the thread.

 

[Starmill]

I have to say, the station master was right when he said you were lucky not to be Penalty Fared.

A Penalty Fare would clearly be unlawful.

 

[DorkingMain]

National Rail Enquiries state that the ticket office is open from 06:40, so it would have been open. I do sympathise with the original poster, as this certainly isn't a passenger friendly way of doing business. However, there is no way I'd have boarded a train sans tix without written permission.

If you look at the relevant conditions of NRCOT (6 & 9):

• There is no mention of authorisation to board without a ticket needing to be written / physical.
• Full undiscounted single / penalty fare is only payable if appropriate ticket issuing facilities were available and you chose not to use them. This doesn't apply if the TVM won't issue the relevant or correct ticket.

 

[Starmill]

How strange!

Unfortunately, information being incorrect, incomplete, or out of date is very common on the National Rail Enquiries website.

 

[AlterEgo]

How strange!

We’ve already established that’s wrong. There is no longer a ticket office there.

 

[Starmill]

I think there are quite a few ticket offices at smaller stations where the previously allocated member of full time staff has retired / left the business / been promoted etc and they can't be replaced because new recruitment is restricted only to top-priority vacancies such as train drivers at most companies. Therefore they're technically still open but they're quasi-closed. Although as established above there's something a little different likely going on here anyway.

 

[NoOnesFool]

There is no mention of authorisation to board without a ticket needing to be written / physical.

Absolutely. The difficulty comes with proving permission was.given though.

Absolutely. The difficulty comes with proving spoken permission was given though.

 

[alistairlees]

Absolutely. The difficulty comes with proving spoken permission was given though.

Or proving that it was not given.

 

[Snow1964]

I think there are quite a few ticket offices at smaller stations where the previously allocated member of full time staff has retired / left the business / been promoted etc and they can't be replaced because new recruitment is restricted only to top-priority vacancies such as train drivers at most companies. Therefore they're technically still open but they're quasi-closed. Although as established above there's something a little different likely going on here anyway.

But is this an acceptable excuse for not updating the website

Surely an alternative message eg ticket office temporarily closed would be better than saying opens at 06:40

It rather brings up the question of if National Rail Enquires is fit for purpose, and should SWR be responsible for ensuring the updates are communicated to NRE and SWR have a duty to repeat request if not uploaded.

But the real stupidity remains programming of ticket machine at station, that doesn’t allow correct off-peak tickets to be bought for next train. Why is is not selling until 10am, much better if the selling time is set to start say 1 minute after last peak train has departed. Especially if first off peak train is 10:02. Just a lack of management common sense.

 

[Coolzac]

I have emailed a response.

Dear SWR,

Thank you for responding to my message, and taking the time to respond to the points I made.

Firstly, although I attached pictures of the tickets to my original complaint, I have attached then to this email. I would like a refund of the ticket from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo as agreed.

Firstly, this whole issue arose from your machines not being able to sell Network Railcard tickets until 10.00, even though it causes passengers who want to buy a ticket from a machine for trains departing at or just after 10.00 to miss their required trains. Could you please change their programming to ensure they can sell tickets at 9.50, meaning that passengers have enough time to catch their train?

In future, I shall request written confirmation of staff authorisation, as I do agree this will help alleviate issues. What should I do if they refuse to write it down or they don't have anything to hand to write it down on?

However, for other passengers, given that some of your staff are issuing verbal authorisation, your other staff are breaking the National Rail Conditions of Travel by refusing to accept this. Either, you need to make sure that your staff give something written down 100% of the time, or you have to train your other staff to accept that sometimes verbal authorisation is given. Can you assure that one of these will happen? Otherwise SWR will be regularly breaking the NRCT which you agree to uphold.

Also, I am, still at a complete loss as to why the revenue protection officer at the barrier refused to sell me my required ticket, but only to sell me a single from Wandsworth to Waterloo? As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel it was my first opportunity to buy the correct ticket. She knew I wasn't a fare evader, and I had explained my situation, so she could have avoided this whole stress and frustration by just selling me my required ticket. My journey to Islip and back required me to go through many barriers so I clearly wasn't trying to fare evade or somehow short fare. What is company policy for people in my situation? Did she follow it?

I look forward to hearing your response,

.....

 

[Starmill]

But is this an acceptable excuse for not updating the website

Surely an alternative message eg ticket office temporarily closed would be better than saying opens at 06:40

It rather brings up the question of if National Rail Enquires is fit for purpose, and should SWR be responsible for ensuring the updates are communicated to NRE and SWR have a duty to repeat request if not uploaded.

But the real stupidity remains programming of ticket machine at station, that doesn’t allow correct off-peak tickets to be bought for next train. Why is is not selling until 10am, much better if the selling time is set to start say 1 minute after last peak train has departed. Especially if first off peak train is 10:02. Just a lack of management common sense.

I agree that National Rail Enquiries is so unreliable that it's not really fit for purpose any more.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I have emailed a response.

Dear SWR,

Thank you for responding to my message, and taking the time to respond to the points I made.

Firstly, although I attached pictures of the tickets to my original complaint, I have attached then to this email. I would like a refund of the ticket from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo as agreed.

Firstly, this whole issue arose from your machines not being able to sell Network Railcard tickets until 10.00, even though it causes passengers who want to buy a ticket from a machine for trains departing at or just after 10.00 to miss their required trains. Could you please change their programming to ensure they can sell tickets at 9.50, meaning that passengers have enough time to catch their train?

In future, I shall request written confirmation of staff authorisation, as I do agree this will help alleviate issues. What should I do if they refuse to write it down or they don't have anything to hand to write it down on?

However, for other passengers, given that some of your staff are issuing verbal authorisation, your other staff are breaking the National Rail Conditions of Travel by refusing to accept this. Either, you need to make sure that your staff give something written down 100% of the time, or you have to train your other staff to accept that sometimes verbal authorisation is given. Can you assure that one of these will happen? Otherwise SWR will be regularly breaking the NRCT which you agree to uphold.

Also, I am, still at a complete loss as to why the revenue protection officer at the barrier refused to sell me my required ticket, but only to sell me a single from Wandsworth to Waterloo? As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel it was my first opportunity to buy the correct ticket. She knew I wasn't a fare evader, and I had explained my situation, so she could have avoided this whole stress and frustration by just selling me my required ticket. My journey to Islip and back required me to go through many barriers so I clearly wasn't trying to fare evade or somehow short fare. What is company policy for people in my situation? Did she follow it?

I look forward to hearing your response,

.....

You’ve used Firstly twice