SWR Class 458 to be retained

[fgwrich]

Isn't the point that it will be an upgrade over the 450s, though?


No they weren't. At least not as a passenger.

Yes they were. The 444s are an excellent long distance unit, but the 442 was a better unit in it's original configuration. It had luggage racks, a buffet, the Snug, First Class compartments and some very comfortable, soft seats (except for the rebuilt former luggage van in the motor coach). All sadly lost when Southern / Gat Ex got their hands on them and really ripped their heart and soul out of the fleet. The 444s would better if they at least had better luggage space (Don't forget they serve Waterloo, Clapham {for Gatwick, Woking {for Heathrow, Basingstoke {XC and West of England, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central {Isle of Wight and Cruise Terminal, Bournemouth and Portsmouth Harbour {Isle of Wight) but SWR and the DfT seem to insist that every available inch must include a seat including in the majority of the bike spaces.

Time well tell how the Portsmouth Direct users react to the 458s foisted upon them. As mentioned above, the Pompey Direct has always been treated as if it were an Intercity Route for some considerable years - the 442s were originally introduced on the route don't forget! SWR better come up with a good refurbishment for them, because in their current form I'd be sending them to SIMS.

 

[southern442]

To some extent though, the 'Portsmouth Direct' is seen as a premier route whereas the Arun Valley isn't. No one appears to expect the Arun Valley trains to have an 'Intercity' feel whereas the passengers on the Portsmouth line consider themselves worthy of identical treatment to the Southampton / Bournemouth route.

Even so I would argue that the ambience of trains on the Arun Valley line (depending on what coach you're in) is certainly on par with some intercity services...

 

[DelW]

Why should Portsmouth have end doored units when Northampton doesn't? The type of service is near enough identical. 350/1s would be perfect, and these are effectively the same thing.

Northampton to Euston is around an hour, Portsmouth to London is around an hour and forty minutes (at best). Comfort matters more the longer you're on the train.

 

[Wolfie]

Why are these the trains that they want? They are arguably even more unsuitable than the 450s

The word sarcasm, implied by the emojis, comes to mind...

 

[pompeyfan]

I don’t think the desiros are bad units, but 450/1s would be much more suited. The dwell times of 1/3 doors but the comfort of tables and 2+2

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northampton to Euston is around an hour, Portsmouth to London is around an hour and forty minutes (at best). Comfort matters more the longer you're on the train.

Plenty of people go to Birmingham or beyond on those trains.

But regardless, comfort is about the seats and general environment, not the precise location of the doors. The sham 1st aside, I personally consider 350s much more comfortable than Pendolinos, and other than the door locations the 350/1 Standard interior is very close to* being identical to that of the 444.

The issue of it getting cold at stations is overstated because of passenger door controls and automatic closing. We aren't talking Merseyrail 50x, and neither are we running these trains in the Scottish Highlands in February.

It's a commuter route, and commuter-layout trains are completely suitable.

* A smallish number of the seats have inferior legroom, but removing 8 seats per unit would fix that.

 

[DelW]

Plenty of people go to Birmingham or beyond on those trains.

But regardless, comfort is about the seats and general environment, not the precise location of the doors. The sham 1st aside, I personally consider 350s much more comfortable than Pendolinos, and other than the door locations the 350/1 Standard interior is very close to* being identical to that of the 444.

The issue of it getting cold at stations is overstated because of passenger door controls and automatic closing. We aren't talking Merseyrail 50x, and neither are we running these trains in the Scottish Highlands in February.

It's a commuter route, and commuter-layout trains are completely suitable.

* A smallish number of the seats have inferior legroom, but removing 8 seats per unit would fix that.

Passengers use them to Birmingham because they're cheap, if you're paying full price you'd use Avanti. From Portsmouth you can pay full price and still end up on outer suburban stock. Doors within the saloon make them noisier as well as colder in winter.

Portsmouth and London are both cities, with a lot of end to end travel throughout the day. It is not just a commuter route. It was traditionally considered Inter-City, although definitions of that can be contentious.

Finally, you live nowhere near the route. Why are you so dogmatic about what those of us who do use it should be allowed to travel in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Finally, you live nowhere near the route. Why are you so dogmatic about what those of us who do use it should be allowed to travel in?

I wasn't aware that you had to have personal involvement in a route to discuss it on a discussion forum.

The reason I am so "dogmatic" is that the Class 350/1 is absolutely ideal for the route concerned. They operate long routes in WMTland too, such as the Trent Valley local which isn't just "Ryanrail" but rather the only or majority service at a number of stations. And the updated 458s are basically the same thing.

I'm also quite strongly against "door position prejudice" as it's at best ill-informed and at worst counterproductive. Doors at thirds are far better for busy routes, they make boarding and alighting much easier and circulation better. The way you deal with comfort is simply to fit nicer seats.

What you need is 2+2 seating, not 444s.

As for 442s, they were outdated, unreliable wheeled scrap metal, and not even that nice since the GatEx "refurb".

(Had you noticed, by the way, that not all doors on 444s are at the ends, nor are all of them separated from the saloon by a vestibule door? I guess not! )

Passengers use them to Birmingham because they're cheap

Forgot to mention - they serve stations Avanti don't, and those people use them to London as direct services, e.g. Marston Green etc.

 

[bramling]

Why are these the trains that they want? They are arguably even more unsuitable than the 450s

The Portsmouth line users want 444s. They’ve had the hump ever since they were taken away.

Whether they’ll like the 458s will depend on how decent a refurbishment they get, but it will need to be a decent one.

To be fair, I think they’ll probably be content enough, if not overjoyed, just to lose the 3+3 facing bays, which in all fairness aren’t really pleasant when fully occupied on a long journey.

 

[jackot]

The Portsmouth line users want 444s. They’ve had the hump ever since they were taken away.

Whether they’ll like the 458s will depend on how decent a refurbishment they get, but it will need to be a decent one.

To be fair, I think they’ll probably be content enough, if not overjoyed, just to lose the 3+3 facing bays, which in all fairness aren’t really pleasant when fully occupied on a long journey.

The trouble is that for Portsmouth users, anything other than the 444’s will be a downgrade - they are perfect for passengers in the job that they currently serve. From experience on both 458’s and general travel on the Portsmouth line, they seem almost incompatible with each other when you consider they will displace some 444’s, but I suppose a very, very good refurbishment could make them suitable. This is a similar dilemma to the GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff route, especially considering door configuration.

However, it is at heart an Intercity service, and 444’s work well as an intercity style train. Time will tell whether the 458’s will work, as the 450 fleet certainly doesn’t.

 

[Pep and co]

Anyone got any news about when the 458s will start heading north for their all important refurbishment?
Earlier in this thread it was noted that the first ones had gone off lease ready for the long journey to Widnes

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, it is at heart an Intercity service, and 444’s work well as an intercity style train. Time will tell whether the 458’s will work, as the 450 fleet certainly doesn’t.

It's an intercity service, but so is the District Line, connecting as it does the Cities of Westminster and London.

It is not an InterCity service, and carries very heavy commuter traffic. I suppose in a way it's not totally dissimilar to the Liverpool St-Norwich service, but that's not really properly InterCity either*, and the FLIRTs don't have the doors at the ends either. It's also fairly similar to TransPennine Express - OK, this does now have end doored trains in part, but it didn't for years, and I suspect the only reason it has them now is that nobody is presently offering a bi-mode commuter layout train off the shelf (and the Mk5s are a follow on from the Caledonian order and so different door positions weren't an option for those).

* Remember that BR considered the Gatwick Express an InterCity service

 

[jackot]

It's an intercity service, but so is the District Line, connecting as it does the Cities of Westminster and London.

It is not an InterCity service, and carries very heavy commuter traffic. I suppose in a way it's not totally dissimilar to the Liverpool St-Norwich service, but that's not really properly InterCity either*, and the FLIRTs don't have the doors at the ends either.

* Remember that BR considered the Gatwick Express an InterCity service

I see what you mean. Many commuters travel between Waterloo and Guildford/Woking, or Waterloo to Godalming or Haslemere. However, it simply sounds like a downgrade for a popular route used by long distance travellers. In reality, there is no right answer, as 444’s work very well most fasts on the line. However, 450’s are definatley not the right train for fast services, so 2+2 refurbished 458’s will likely work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see what you mean. Many commuters travel between Waterloo and Guildford/Woking, or Waterloo to Godalming or Haslemere. However, it simply sounds like a downgrade for a popular route used by long distance travellers.

London to Portsmouth is not, by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever, a long distance journey.

Nor, to be fair, is London to Birmingham, and I think that this route has end doored Pendolinos has more to do with who is operating it and money saved by homogenity of fleet than that the route justifies trains with end doors specifically.

In reality, there is no right answer, as 444’s work very well most fasts on the line. However, 450’s are definatley not the right train for fast services, so 2+2 refurbished 458’s will likely work.

I agree, doors at thirds with decent quality 2+2 seating with armrests and tables is what is appropriate for this route - just like all of Southern's and Southeastern's similar routes, or 350/1s on LNR, or TPE 185s, or Northern 195s to Barrow and Windermere, or the many, many other examples of this sort of service.

 

[DelW]

What you need is 2+2 seating, not 444s.

Thank you for *you* telling me what *I* need. I'd prefer to decide that for myself though.

(Had you noticed, by the way, that not all doors on 444s are at the ends, nor are all of them separated from the saloon by a vestibule door? I guess not! )

Since I travel on them regularly, I'm well aware of where the doors are. I choose my seat accordingly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you for *you* telling me what *I* need. I'd prefer to decide that for myself though.

I'm not aware of any situation either past or present where passengers were able to choose or significantly influence* what rolling stock operated on their line.

* OK, OK, the wood panelling in the TPE 158s was actually my idea on a passenger survey - yes, really! However, that is pretty minor, and my other suggestions such as increased legroom were of course not implemented.

 

[Wolfie]

The Portsmouth line users want 444s. They’ve had the hump ever since they were taken away.

Whether they’ll like the 458s will depend on how decent a refurbishment they get, but it will need to be a decent one.

To be fair, I think they’ll probably be content enough, if not overjoyed, just to lose the 3+3 facing bays, which in all fairness aren’t really pleasant when fully occupied on a long journey.

Frankly they can take what they get. They will have less leverage when GBR comes into being. Portsmouth to London has never been true InterCity.

London to Portsmouth is not, by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever, a long distance journey.

Nor, to be fair, is London to Birmingham, and I think that this route has end doored Pendolinos has more to do with who is operating it and money saved by homogenity of fleet than that the route justifies trains with end doors specifically.



I agree, doors at thirds with decent quality 2+2 seating with armrests and tables is what is appropriate for this route - just like all of Southern's and Southeastern's similar routes, or 350/1s on LNR, or TPE 185s, or Northern 195s to Barrow and Windermere, or the many, many other examples of this sort of service.

Agreed

I'm not aware of any situation either past or present where passengers were able to choose or significantly influence* what rolling stock operated on their line.

* OK, OK, the wood panelling in the TPE 158s was actually my idea on a passenger survey - yes, really! However, that is pretty minor, and my other suggestions such as increased legroom were of course not implemented.

Again, agreed.

Thank you for *you* telling me what *I* need. I'd prefer to decide that for myself though.

You can say what you "want" (as opposed to need)... I "need" (actually want) to win the lottery. It's about equally likely as you deciding on what stock operates your line....

 

[Mikey C]

London to Portsmouth is not, by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever, a long distance journey.

Nor, to be fair, is London to Birmingham, and I think that this route has end doored Pendolinos has more to do with who is operating it and money saved by homogenity of fleet than that the route justifies trains with end doors specifically.



I agree, doors at thirds with decent quality 2+2 seating with armrests and tables is what is appropriate for this route - just like all of Southern's and Southeastern's similar routes, or 350/1s on LNR, or TPE 185s, or Northern 195s to Barrow and Windermere, or the many, many other examples of this sort of service.

Or indeed the Chiltern 168s

 

[Roast Veg]

Northampton to Euston is around an hour, Portsmouth to London is around an hour and forty minutes (at best). Comfort matters more the longer you're on the train.

The good people of Hastings seem to manage just fine, but then they don't have an extraordinarily loud users group.

 

[Nogoohwell]

Nothing entering Waterloo can be classed as Intercity. For most practical purposes, all other 'Intercity' stations have dedicated fast tracks into the stations.

As soon as you hit Wimbledon in the morning its stop start all the way in, there is just too many services and not enough space.

Plus the Portsmouth line is incapable of supporting Intercity services. Twin track, stations closely situated to one another and half hourly stopping services, all contribute to it being an outer-suburban route.

I can't see any new 25m end door trains being ordered for services into Waterloo. Dwell times are what its all about, forget perceived comfort, you want to arrive at the time you planned otherwise your day is ruined. These marginal gains make a big difference when you have 25 or so services an hour using the same two tracks.

Its about a 90 minute journey, I've been on cramped 455's for longer!

 

[Wolfie]

Nothing entering Waterloo can be classed as Intercity. For most practical purposes, all other 'Intercity' stations have dedicated fast tracks into the stations.

As soon as you hit Wimbledon in the morning its stop start all the way in, there is just too many services and not enough space.

Plus the Portsmouth line is incapable of supporting Intercity services. Twin track, stations closely situated to one another and half hourly stopping services, all contribute to it being an outer-suburban route.

I can't see any new 25m end door trains being ordered for services into Waterloo. Dwell times are what its all about, forget perceived comfort, you want to arrive at the time you planned otherwise your day is ruined. These marginal gains make a big difference when you have 25 or so services an hour using the same two tracks.

Its about a 90 minute journey, I've been on cramped 455's for longer!

While l'm inclined to agree, l assume therefore that you'd say the same about Liverpool Street to Norwich?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While l'm inclined to agree, l assume therefore that you'd say the same about Liverpool Street to Norwich?

I certainly would, and the units it has are not end-doored (though they do have fewer doors than a typical regional EMU).

It is another route where 350/1s would be perfectly suitable, though the FLIRTs are indeed nice and have the level boarding benefit.

 

[Wolfie]

I certainly would, and the units it has are not end-doored (though they do have fewer doors than a typical regional EMU).

It is another route where 350/1s would be perfectly suitable, though the FLIRTs are indeed nice and have the level boarding benefit.

Agreed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The good people of Hastings seem to manage just fine, but then they don't have an extraordinarily loud users group.

And because a lot of their Electrostars have 2+2 seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And because a lot of their Electrostars have 2+2 seating.

To be fair most of this part of the subthread was replying to someone who has a bad case of door position prejudice and wouldn't see other 2+2 units such as 458s and 350/1s to be acceptable.

 

[hwl]

To be fair most of this part of the subthread was replying to someone who has a bad case of door position prejudice and wouldn't see other 2+2 units such as 458s and 350/1s to be acceptable.

Yep, there are also a lot more station in general on the Portsmouth route hence a common fast and stopping service fleet point to not using end doors.

The SWR 442 trials to Portmouth showed that dwell times were an issue with end doors pre Covid.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The trouble is that for Portsmouth users, anything other than the 444’s will be a downgrade - they are perfect for passengers in the job that they currently serve. From experience on both 458’s and general travel on the Portsmouth line, they seem almost incompatible with each other when you consider they will displace some 444’s, but I suppose a very, very good refurbishment could make them suitable. This is a similar dilemma to the GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff route, especially considering door configuration.

However, it is at heart an Intercity service, and 444’s work well as an intercity style train. Time will tell whether the 458’s will work, as the 450 fleet certainly doesn’t.

As a Portsmouth direct user (I live in Havant and before that Petersfield) the direct isn’t and never was Intercity. Yes we had 442s and 444s but also had CEPs and VEPs and now 450s on the same route. The biggest issue with the 450s was and is the 3+2 seating not the door position. 458s will solve that and the majority of users will be content.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Seems "double-doors" could be the future for SWR (or GBR South Western region whatever) as future replacements for 444s probably will get these as GA's new fleets and other TOCs also have these with minimal issues.

The end doors of 444s seem to be a "hangover" which these succeeded from 442s as the 444s are a modern version of the 442s.

Times have changed and passenger numbers had increased pre-Covid then dwell times would be more important then the double doors could help with saving extra time.

The good thing there are glass shields on either side of the double doors to reduce rain & wind from gushing in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

444s are nice, probably my favourite UK rolling stock, but there's nothing they do that wouldn't be done just as well by 350/1s, Aventras etc. It's the seating layout that really matters.

I find for what it's worth that the ScotRail 380s have an InterCity feel due to the long central section.

 

[Mikey C]

444s are nice, probably my favourite UK rolling stock, but there's nothing they do that wouldn't be done just as well by 350/1s, Aventras etc. It's the seating layout that really matters.

I find for what it's worth that the ScotRail 380s have an InterCity feel due to the long central section.

23m carriages do help in that respect.