I’m 19 and going to court

[Mimi369]

Hello,

I really need some help. About a month ago me, my brother, my boyfriend and 2 other friends got on a train at east Worthing and got off at worthing the side we got on had no ticket machine and we had no time to go to the other side also the ticket machine on the other side only ever takes card and I only had cash.

We ended up getting on the train and we had a look to see if we could buy a ticket on the train but we couldn’t find anyone so we said we will buy one when we get off. We got off and then as we were walking to the ticket machine we all got stopped by railway officers there was about 8 of them we asked if we could buy a ticket an explained the situation. We all wanted to buy a ticket but they were not having it.

The railway officers then got me to take a survey and said this will all go away but it didn’t and now they are saying I’m going to court.

I sent the letter back to the courts saying I plead not guilty but realised I have made a big mistake and I don’t know what to do I’m really scared and stressed about the whole situation.

Im only 19 and so scared about having a criminal record and having to pay a big fine I cannot afford.

I would really appreciate some advise.
Thank you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Welcome to the forum. It will help us to ascertain some facts.

Hello,

I really need some help. About a month ago me, my brother, my boyfriend and 2 other friends got on a train at east Worthing and got off at worthing the side we got on had no ticket machine and we had no time to go to the other side also the ticket machine on the other side only ever takes card and I only had cash.

East Worthing and Worthing are less than a mile apart and take about 90 seconds to travel between by train. This isn't to say you can't, or won't get a train between the two, but it is the very closest station to Worthing, where you alighted. A revenue inspector might be naturally suspicious of people without fares asking to buy a ticket from East Worthing, and would have raised suspicions from the outset.

Does the ticket machine at Worthing have notes or coin slot? That is, is it actually set up to accept cash, but refuses your money each time? Or, is it simply a card only machine?

We ended up getting on the train and we had a look to see if we could buy a ticket on the train but we couldn’t find anyone

Did you tell the inspectors this?

so we said we will buy one when we get off. We got off and then as we were walking to the ticket machine we all got stopped by railway officers there was about 8 of them we asked if we could buy a ticket an explained the situation. We all wanted to buy a ticket but they were not having it.

So it seems as though you were caught by a revenue block at Worthing. When you say "they were not having it", what did they say exactly? Did they give reasons as to why they didn't believe you?

The railway officers then got me to take a survey and said this will all go away but it didn’t and now they are saying I’m going to court.

What survey was this? What sort of questions did it have? What answers did you give? Are you sure it was a survey?

I sent the letter back to the courts saying I plead not guilty but realised I have made a big mistake and I don’t know what to do I’m really scared and stressed about the whole situation.

Did the train company write to you before issuing the summons? If so, what did they say, and did you respond to them?

What offence did the court letter say you were being charged with?

 

[Mimi369]

East Worthing and Worthing are less than a mile apart and take about 90 seconds to travel between by train. This isn't to say you can't, or won't get a train between the two, but it is the very closest station to Worthing, where you alighted. A revenue inspector might be naturally suspicious of people without fares asking to buy a ticket from East Worthing, and would have raised suspicions from the outset.

Does the ticket machine at Worthing have notes or coin slot? That is, is it actually set up to accept cash, but refuses your money each time? Or, is it simply a card only machine?

yeah we were in quite a rush and I always get trains from east Worthing to Worthing but usually always pay by card because it won’t ever let me pay cash as it just says no accepting cash at this moment. Worthing let’s you pay cash always though

Did you tell the inspectors this?

Yes we did but they didn’t care

So it seems as though you were caught by a revenue block at Worthing. When you say "they were not having it", what did they say exactly? Did they give reasons as to why they didn't believe you?

So Worthing had been having a few problems with teenagers at the moment and Worthing station got railway officers down from london to help them out and someone I spoke to said we were just unfortunate to get caught because they obviously just seen we were teenagers and expected us not to pay and thought we were lying but why would we lie it was a £3 ticket.

What survey was this? What sort of questions did it have? What answers did you give? Are you sure it was a survey?

Well the railway officer just said it was a survey that gets sent off and that it’s a good way to get out of a fine. But now I think they just did it to get rid of us. It was just simple questions like “did you intend to buy a ticket” , “what was the reason for not buying a ticket” etc..

Welcome to the forum. It will help us to ascertain some facts.


East Worthing and Worthing are less than a mile apart and take about 90 seconds to travel between by train. This isn't to say you can't, or won't get a train between the two, but it is the very closest station to Worthing, where you alighted. A revenue inspector might be naturally suspicious of people without fares asking to buy a ticket from East Worthing, and would have raised suspicions from the outset.

Does the ticket machine at Worthing have notes or coin slot? That is, is it actually set up to accept cash, but refuses your money each time? Or, is it simply a card only machine?


Did you tell the inspectors this?


So it seems as though you were caught by a revenue block at Worthing. When you say "they were not having it", what did they say exactly? Did they give reasons as to why they didn't believe you?


What survey was this? What sort of questions did it have? What answers did you give? Are you sure it was a survey?


Did the train company write to you before issuing the summons? If so, what did they say, and did you respond to them?

What offence did the court letter say you were being charged with?

No they didn’t write to me, I’m not 100% sure what I was being charged right this minute as I’m at my boyfriends and the letter is at mine but I will check when I go home later. I will post a pic too.

 

[AlterEgo]

yeah we were in quite a rush and I always get trains from east Worthing to Worthing but usually always pay by card because it won’t ever let me pay cash as it just says no accepting cash at this moment. Worthing let’s you pay cash always though

Did you mention being in a rush to the inspector? If you told the inspector you did not even visit the machine and simply boarded because "you were in a rush" you have incriminated yourself, because while the machine at East Worthing might have a temporary message that it can't accept cash, there is no way for you to know on the day that the railway would not accept your payment.

An admission that you made no attempt to purchase a ticket is probably why they have authorised action against you.

Did any of your party have tickets?

So Worthing had been having a few problems with teenagers at the moment and Worthing station got railway officers down from london to help them out and someone I spoke to said we were just unfortunate to get caught because they obviously just seen we were teenagers and expected us not to pay and thought we were lying but why would we lie it was a £3 ticket.

I'm afraid a lot of people do lie over a £3 ticket; this is a busy forum where lots of people end up having fallen foul of the law (and of course there are plenty who are innocent too!).

Well the railway officer just said it was a survey that gets sent off and that it’s a good way to get out of a fine.

Right, but it has questions about your offence...

But now I think they just did it to get rid of us. It was just simple questions like “did you intend to buy a ticket” , “what was the reason for not buying a ticket” etc..

I'm afraid they did it to gather evidence about your (potential) offence.

No they didn’t write to me, I’m not 100% sure what I was being charged right this minute as I’m at my boyfriends and the letter is at mine but I will check when I go home later. I will post a pic too.

Please do post a picture, but cover up your personal details. You should also ask the forum moderators to change your username; using your real name is not wise on a public forum where you need to give details, which may be incriminating, about an offence you may or may not have committed.

 

[cuccir]

I sent the letter back to the courts saying I plead not guilty but realised I have made a big mistake and I don’t know what to do I’m really scared and stressed about the whole situation.

Im only 19 and so scared about having a criminal record and having to pay a big fine I cannot afford.

I would really appreciate some advise.
Thank you.

Hello - thanks for coming to us about this.

AlterEgo's posts are helpful, and it's very important if you can establish what, precisely, the letter says you're being charged with - that determines how likely you would be to found guilty, and the extent of any possible punishment.

To try an ease your fears a bit: the 'worst case scenario', that is what would happen if you were found guilty under the most serious legislation available to the railway company, would be a fine and a criminal record which is 'declarable' for 12 months after the court date. The fine would be set in proportion to your income, so it should not be at a level where it is unaffordable. After 12 months the criminal record is gone for most cicrumstances, though the conviction would be present on the 'DBS' checks used for some jobs after that (but is highly unlikely to stop employers hiring you). In other words - the worst outcome is likely to cost you a little money and potentially be a little embarrassing when you're older, but should not have a bigger impact than that on you.

There are other better outcomes for you which we can provide advice on, but reaching these depends in particular on what they plan to charge you with.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If this went to court, I presume there will be CCTV evidence of you and your friends entering East Worthing station - unless of course, it is only kept for a short amount of time

There are lots of unstaffed stations on the East Coastway and it appears you and your friends got unlucky.

 

[najaB]

yeah we were in quite a rush and I always get trains from east Worthing to Worthing but usually always pay by card because it won’t ever let me pay cash as it just says no accepting cash at this moment.

The problem here is that, unless you actually tried to use cash on the day then they've pretty much got an open and shut Byelaw 18 case. Had you tried to use cash and the machine had refused it then you would've been fine to board and buy at the other end.

 

[Haywain]

The fine would be set in proportion to your income, so it should not be at a level where it is unaffordable.

Affordability is dependent on outgoings as a proportion of income, not simply the level of income. A fine therefore may well be 'unaffordable'.

If this went to court, I presume there will be CCTV evidence of you and your friends entering East Worthing station - unless of course, it is only kept for a short amount of time

It is unlikely that CCTV will have been requested and in most cases it will be retained for only a month or so.

 

[najaB]

It is unlikely that CCTV will have been requested and in most cases it will be retained for only a month or so.

CCTV wouldn't be necessary in any case since the OP has already admitted to boarding at a station with (ostensibly working) ticketing facilities.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

CCTV wouldn't be necessary in any case since the OP has already admitted to boarding at a station with (ostensibly working) ticketing facilities.

I know - just thinking of proof that the OP did indeed board at East Worthing and not another unstaffed station further down the line

 

[Haywain]

I know - just thinking of proof that the OP did indeed board at East Worthing and not another unstaffed station further down the line

I have no idea why you think this in necessary as where the OP boarded does not appear to be in dispute.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

I really need some help. About a month ago me, my brother, my boyfriend and 2 other friends got on a train at east Worthing and got off at worthing the side we got on had no ticket machine and we had no time to go to the other side also the ticket machine on the other side only ever takes card and I only had cash.

We ended up getting on the train and we had a look to see if we could buy a ticket on the train but we couldn’t find anyone so we said we will buy one when we get off. We got off and then as we were walking to the ticket machine we all got stopped by railway officers there was about 8 of them we asked if we could buy a ticket an explained the situation. We all wanted to buy a ticket but they were not having it.

The railway officers then got me to take a survey and said this will all go away but it didn’t and now they are saying I’m going to court.

I sent the letter back to the courts saying I plead not guilty but realised I have made a big mistake and I don’t know what to do I’m really scared and stressed about the whole situation.

Im only 19 and so scared about having a criminal record and having to pay a big fine I cannot afford.

I would really appreciate some advise.
Thank you.

I think good advice for you now would be to start engaging with the railway and hoping they may agree to an 'out of court settlement'.

Did you get a letter from the railway asking for your version of events before you got a letter from the court*? Did you reply to it? if so what did you say?

EDIT: I now see you say in post #3 that you did not get any such letter. Are you sure? That seems unusual from what is seen on these threads, tho others may know how often these sorts of cases go direct to court without the passenger being previously written to.

Can you dig it out and write to them again? (Or write to them for the 1st time now)

You may still have the chance to apologise, offer to pay your fare and any costs associated with them investigating this.

That may help avoid you having a criminal record and might mean you pay less to get the matter resolved.

Other threads detail the sort of things to say in a brief letter to Southern Railway.

You can post a draft on here for people to comment on and edit as necessary if that would help.

I would do this ASAP - do you know the date the court case is scheduled on?

Plenty of help on here for you in order to do this if you can.

as @Hadders has posted on other threads such a letter should be along these lines:

You might want to mention the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fares and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before.

 

[Watershed]

The problem here is that, unless you actually tried to use cash on the day then they've pretty much got an open and shut Byelaw 18 case. Had you tried to use cash and the machine had refused it then you would've been fine to board and buy at the other end.

There is no need to attempt to buy a ticket for the defence under Byelaw 18(3)(i) to arise. It simply requires that:

there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

Of course, if you don't even attempt to buy a ticket, you are taking on the risk that there are facilities in working order, which you didn't know about.

But if the facilities were, in fact, not in working order then an attempt to buy a ticket is irrelevant.

 

[WesternLancer]

Possibly one for the ticketing experts but given the size of the group concerned:

me, my brother, my boyfriend and 2 other friends got on a train at East Worthing

would they have been entitled to a Groupsave Ticket?
and am I still correct in saying that many TVMs do not offer Groupsave?

So it may be of future reference to know that had the OP indicated that is what they needed to buy (by either cash or card) there would have been no ability for the railway to take action against them ref not having a ticket until they met a staff member or could go to a ticket office where they could sell Groupsave tickets to them?

Southern's Groupsave page indicates you can buy online and at ticket offices but does not mention ticket vending machines which suggests to me that the @Mimi369 and friends could perhaps not have bought one at East Worthing even if they tried to do so. Indeed had I read that web page before travel I may not have even bothered to try and look for such a ticket on the machine.

Group Train Booking | Group Train Ticket | Southern Railway

Save money when you travel with friends on Southern.

www.southernrailway.com

Not that it would be the first time a railway company website has plenty of fluff but is inaccurate on the hard facts....

[Edits to indicate this would only be relevant in future]

 

[Darandio]

Im only 19 and so scared about having a criminal record and having to pay a big fine I cannot afford.

The fact you are 19 is stated both here and in the thread title along with another post claiming you were treated this way because you are a teenager.

I wouldn't try to use any of this in any response you make to them, you are an adult.

 

[221129]

would they have been entitled to a Groupsave Ticket?
and am I still correct in saying that TVMs do not offer Groupsave?

Irrelevant as that's not what was asked for.

 

[Haywain]

and am I still correct in saying that TVMs do not offer Groupsave?

A significant number of TVMs do offer Groupsave.

So had the OP indicated that is what they needed to buy (by either cash or card) there would have been no ability for the railway to take action against them ref not having a ticket until they met staff member who could sell Groupsave tickets to them?

It's really not helpful to look for excuses that the OP has not presented.

 

[WesternLancer]

A significant number of TVMs do offer Groupsave.


It's really not helpful to look for excuses that the OP has not presented.

Not suggesting using it as an excuse. But may be helpful info to the OP for other occasions since they do the trip regularly.

The OP has already admitted to the staff they did not seek to buy a ticket (of any sort) - hence my advice to them in the post above (#12) ref where they are now.

 

[Mimi369]

The fact you are 19 is stated both here and in the thread title along with another post claiming you were treated this way because you are a teenager.

I wouldn't try to use any of this in any response you make to them, you are an adult.

No I understand that I am an adult but even when I went into the station the other day the man said it was unfortunate because we were most likely treated this way because of our age and the fact we were in a group

 

[WesternLancer]

Irrelevant as that's not what was asked for.

Tangentially relevant advice for future occasions IMHO.

 

[najaB]

But if the facilities were, in fact, not in working order then an attempt to buy a ticket is irrelevant.

The problem is that, if they didn't attempt to purchase a ticket then they wouldn't have known if the facilities were in order and, more importantly, won't be able to mount a defence against a Byelaw 18 prosecution on the basis that the machine might not have been working.

 

[Watershed]

The problem is that, if they didn't attempt to purchase a ticket then they wouldn't have known if the facilities were in order and, more importantly, won't be able to mount a defence against a Byelaw 18 prosecution on the basis that the machine might not have been working.

They would definitely able to assert that the machine wasn't working. Of course that argument would then be decided based on the available evidence.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does Worthing have barriers?

 

[najaB]

They would definitely able to assert that the machine wasn't working.

No, the most they could truthfully assert is that they didn't believe that the machine was working. Or that it hadn't worked when they tried to use it previously.

 

[Mimi369]

Welcome to the forum. It will help us to ascertain some facts.


East Worthing and Worthing are less than a mile apart and take about 90 seconds to travel between by train. This isn't to say you can't, or won't get a train between the two, but it is the very closest station to Worthing, where you alighted. A revenue inspector might be naturally suspicious of people without fares asking to buy a ticket from East Worthing, and would have raised suspicions from the outset.

Does the ticket machine at Worthing have notes or coin slot? That is, is it actually set up to accept cash, but refuses your money each time? Or, is it simply a card only machine?


Did you tell the inspectors this?


So it seems as though you were caught by a revenue block at Worthing. When you say "they were not having it", what did they say exactly? Did they give reasons as to why they didn't believe you?


What survey was this? What sort of questions did it have? What answers did you give? Are you sure it was a survey?


Did the train company write to you before issuing the summons? If so, what did they say, and did you respond to them?

What offence did the court letter say you were being charged with?

 

[najaB]

Thanks for the documentation. As I see it, since it's a Byelaw 18 prosecution your only defence would be to prove that the machine wouldn't have accepted your cash if you had tried it on that day.

Not sure how you could achieve that - you're basically trying to prove a hypothetical negative. Even stating that it didn't accept your cash before or since wouldn't suffice.

 

[furlong]

(Notice how they have quoted 18(2) incorrectly as "a ticket" instead of "his ticket" - nobody can be expected to hand over something that doesn't exist - but a court might not necessary agree. This type of byelaw has caused problems before and I don't understand why train companies persist with it rather than using one of the alternatives ref. https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/1305.html )

 

[najaB]

(Notice how they have quoted 18(2) incorrectly as "a ticket" instead of "his ticket" - nobody can be expected to hand over something that doesn't exist - but a court might not necessary agree. This type of byelaw has caused problems before and I don't understand why train companies persist with it rather than using one of the alternatives ref. https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/1305.html )

I'm not a lawyer, obviously, but surely "his ticket" is encompassed by "a ticket"? If the OP failed to hand hand over "a ticket" then there's no possible way that they could have handed over "his ticket".

Where I can see that wording being problematic to a successful prosecution is if the OP had handed over a ticket that they found on the ground. That would necessarily be "a ticket" even though it wasn't "his ticket".

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for sharing that copy of the document.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think your only real course of action to minimise this now is as per my post above #12 and write to the railway and try to secure a settlement (or go to the court on the day, seek out the Prosecutor and ask if they will accept a settlement - there are cases on here where that happens). From other recent threads you may be looking at paying in the region of £100 to £150 perhaps to do that, but I think it is worth a try.

I think this because as I understand it you are guilty because you got on a train without attempting to buy a ticket which is an offence. Your only reason to challenge it would be if you can proove that the ticket machines at the station were not working properly and would not take cash, and I think it will not be feasible for you to proove that.

Sorry about this but good luck. As I said if you want to write to the railway (Govia Thameslink) to apologise and ask for a settlement it would be a good idea and if you get to work on a draft. People here will help you with any suggestions if you wish it post your draft before sending it.

Alternatively if you are a student your students union may have an advice person or an arrangement with a local solicitor that can help you write such a letter without an expensive legal fee. You may want to ask them about that ASAP.

Also - Have any of your other friends from that day had similar letters, or was it only yourself who did not have a ticket?

The sort of letter (obviously amended as per what happened to you) that you might want to write is as per the suggested draft in post #61 here:

Southeastern Bylaws report​

Perhaps I can suggest some amends for you to consider - I have struck through the train time you have used as I don't think there is a train at or around 20.15 hours from Strood to Maidstone on 14 oct so you may want to correct that or delete it if you are not sure of the exact train you were on...
www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

No, the most they could truthfully assert is that they didn't believe that the machine was working. Or that it hadn't worked when they tried to use it previously.

I think you may misunderstand what I'm getting at.

OP could plead 'not guilty' and mount a defence under Byelaw 18(3)(i), alleging that:

there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

The fact that OP does not know this for certain doesn't stop them from bringing such a defence. The defence concerns the actual state of the facilities; the defendant's knowledge thereof is neither here nor there.

Of course, the fact that OP does not know for certain means there may be less, or even no, evidence as to the functioning of the machine. And that may, in turn, harm the OP's chances of success.

Thanks for the documentation. As I see it, since it's a Byelaw 18 prosecution your only defence would be to prove that the machine wouldn't have accepted your cash if you had tried it on that day.

Not sure how you could achieve that - you're basically trying to prove a hypothetical negative

There is no requirement to have tried to use the machines.

Even stating that it didn't accept your cash before or since wouldn't suffice.

Correct.