Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[HowardGWR]

Such as a stapler or a ring-binder?

Ha ha. I looked it up after spelling stationary with an a but what I looked up stated it should be an e. I must look up more reliable info! Whoops.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Maybe this is a little too off topic - but is there a reason online journey planners aren't exactly being useful right now? GWR's own site is still showing itineraries for through journeys via the affected area for tomorrow - itineraries we know aren't true because the area is going to be closed for a while longer yet. I assume this is because the services for the following few days haven't actually been cancelled / set to be terminated early yet - but it seems poor form to still be showing those itineraries. It is fine for people like us who are aware of what is going on, but that isn't true for everyone.

 

[PhilH]

RAIB Statement: Salisbury rail accident​

The following statement was given this afternoon by Andrew Hall, Deputy Chief Inspector, Rail Accident Investigation Branch.
"A team of RAIB inspectors arrived on site on Sunday evening and were joined yesterday by additional inspectors and our support team. We are working alongside partner organisations including the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) and BTP. Our investigation is progressing well.
"Yesterday our focus was on evidence retrieval, we have been working with Police scene officers to examine the train. We have also undertaken a close examination of the track and signalling in the area and started to talk to those involved. Analysis of downloads from the trains’ data recorders, electronic data from the signalling system and CCTV imagery is ongoing.
"From the initial evidence we have collected, we know that that the passage of the Great Western train travelling from Eastleigh across Salisbury Tunnel Junction was being protected by a red signal. At this junction, trains coming from Eastleigh merge with those from Basingstoke, so the South Western service coming from Basingstoke was required to stop at that signal.
"Unfortunately, it did not stop and struck the side of the Great Western train at an angle such that both trains derailed and ran alongside each other into the tunnel just beyond the junction.
"Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.
"This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others.
"In consultation with other parties, we continue to work with the railway recovery engineers to ensure that the site is handed back in the shortest time possible. We intend to begin releasing parts of the site back to Network Rail later today.
"Later this week we’ll be releasing the initial findings of the investigation, these will be publicly available on our website."

 

[pompeyfan]

Thank you, I don't recall anyone else reporting this (although apologies to anyone who has reported it and I missed it).

and to prove a point, here is a fuel and presumably a CET move

Realtime Trains - 5L00 1243 Clapham Yard to Fratton Depot F.P.

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[318266]

In layman's terms: SPAD + brakes not liking wheelslip

 

[2HAP]

The SWT train ran a red, probably due to poor rail adhesion.

Train near Salisbury likely crashed after it couldn't stop due to wheel problem

'Low adhesion' between the wheels and the track probably meant that it couldn't stop at a red signal, an investigation found.

metro.co.uk

‘Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.


‘This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst othe

 

[w0033944]

RAIB Statement: Salisbury rail accident​

The following statement was given this afternoon by Andrew Hall, Deputy Chief Inspector, Rail Accident Investigation Branch.
"A team of RAIB inspectors arrived on site on Sunday evening and were joined yesterday by additional inspectors and our support team. We are working alongside partner organisations including the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) and BTP. Our investigation is progressing well.
"Yesterday our focus was on evidence retrieval, we have been working with Police scene officers to examine the train. We have also undertaken a close examination of the track and signalling in the area and started to talk to those involved. Analysis of downloads from the trains’ data recorders, electronic data from the signalling system and CCTV imagery is ongoing.
"From the initial evidence we have collected, we know that that the passage of the Great Western train travelling from Eastleigh across Salisbury Tunnel Junction was being protected by a red signal. At this junction, trains coming from Eastleigh merge with those from Basingstoke, so the South Western service coming from Basingstoke was required to stop at that signal.
"Unfortunately, it did not stop and struck the side of the Great Western train at an angle such that both trains derailed and ran alongside each other into the tunnel just beyond the junction.
"Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.
"This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others.
"In consultation with other parties, we continue to work with the railway recovery engineers to ensure that the site is handed back in the shortest time possible. We intend to begin releasing parts of the site back to Network Rail later today.
"Later this week we’ll be releasing the initial findings of the investigation, these will be publicly available on our website."

Sounds as though we were along the right path in our thinking.

The SWT train ran a red, probably due to poor rail adhesion.

Train near Salisbury likely crashed after it couldn't stop due to wheel problem

'Low adhesion' between the wheels and the track probably meant that it couldn't stop at a red signal, an investigation found.

metro.co.uk

Still they get it wrong.

 

[adc82140]

That RAIB interim statement, if the full report backs it up, is a game changer. I expect a whole raft of vegetation clearance is about to commence.

 

[w0033944]

That RAIB interim statement, if the full report backs it up, is a game changer. I expect a whole raft of vegetation clearance is about to commence.

It ought to - by the sounds of it, with another train having recently cleared the tunnel (in the opposite direction?) the consequences could have been very bad indeeed.

 

[John Bishop]

Well there we have it. Interesting but not surprising update from RAIB.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I'm going to buy some shares in Husqvarna..............

 

[John Bishop]

It’s just a shame that it takes a serious accident and potential loss of life to force change. See also Carmont tragedy. NR really need to step up to the plate now!

 

[185143]

Wonder wether the general public will still view "leaves on the line" as an excuse and/or a joke if the above statement is indeed accurate?

 

[Thumper1127]

Can anyone provide any of that pesky little thing -- evidence -- that suggests NR isn't cutting down enough trees?

I'll remind people of all we know about the accident at the moment:

• The GWR train was where it was supposed to be
• The SWR train was where it wasn't supposed to be.

We have no idea how this situation came to arise, and speculation is pointless, boring, and, aiui, against the rules of this forum.

It seems we do know. Radio Solent announced on the 1600 news that the RAIB has said the cause was that following a brake application by Driver the train lost adhesion and was unable to stop in time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Still they get it wrong.

Remarkable? Or just typical?
Even with a concise RAIB statement now embedded in their story they leave the original discounted version there to confuse everyone…

 

[43096]

It’s just a shame that it takes a serious accident and potential loss of life to force change. See also Carmont tragedy. NR really need to step up to the plate now!

To be fair to NR, this has been ongoing since the 1970s and no organisation since then has got to grips with it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I hope it gets raised in the House of Commons. We need to get serious before something really serious happens. Showing the general public photos of how it used to be I.e. not trees everywhere.

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe this is a little too off topic - but is there a reason online journey planners aren't exactly being useful right now? GWR's own site is still showing itineraries for through journeys via the affected area for tomorrow - itineraries we know aren't true because the area is going to be closed for a while longer yet. I assume this is because the services for the following few days haven't actually been cancelled / set to be terminated early yet - but it seems poor form to still be showing those itineraries. It is fine for people like us who are aware of what is going on, but that isn't true for everyone.

Journey planners will have to have significant data changes to overcome the routeing guide rules. I’m sure that will have a lot to do with it. But as you note may be better in the fares section?

 

[GC class B1]

I wonder whether the option to disable WSP when an emergency brake application is made will be considered as I believe a train with locked wheels may stop in less distance than one where WSP is continually releasing the brakes. Wheel damage will be preferable to a collision.

 

[seagull]

Approaching a red signal with the wheels locked, sliding, and sometimes the train even gaining speed on a downhill gradient is one of the very worst experiences a driver can have. Couple that with seeing a train in front on an inevitable collision course, it doesn't bear thinking about. Literally the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

I have an observation that may have been made already.

Once the driver of the SWR train realised that it probably wasn't going to stop at the protecting signal if he/she then made a REC the GWR driver would surely receive it and stop that train, thus making a collision more likely?

 

[scotraildriver]

I have an observation that may have been made already.

Once the driver of the SWR train realised that it probably wasn't going to stop at the protecting signal if he/she then made a REC the GWR driver would surely receive it and stop that train, thus making a collision more likely?

Yes you sometimes have to think if the emergency button is the best call. The driver of the runaway sleeper at Edinburgh deliberately DIDN'T use the emergency button as he knew it would likely stop trains in his path, instead using the priority button and giving the Signaller a chance to give a clear route .

 

[the sniper]

I expect a whole raft of vegetation clearance is about to commence.

About time...

Wonder wether the general public will still view "leaves on the line" as an excuse and/or a joke if the above statement is indeed accurate?

Well at least there's now probably an easy response, 'Google Salisbury train crash'.

 

[MadMac]

Approaching a red signal with the wheels locked, sliding, and sometimes the train even gaining speed on a downhill gradient is one of the very worst experiences a driver can have. Couple that with seeing a train in front on an inevitable collision course, it doesn't bear thinking about. Literally the stuff of nightmares.

The other human factor in these situations is that the driver would have had to “suspend disbelief”: your train isn't supposed to skid, but it’s skidding and you have to process that.

 

[Crossover]

I have an observation that may have been made already.

Once the driver of the SWR train realised that it probably wasn't going to stop at the protecting signal if he/she then made a REC the GWR driver would surely receive it and stop that train, thus making a collision more likely?

Yes you sometimes have to think if the emergency button is the best call. The driver of the runaway sleeper at Edinburgh deliberately DIDN'T use the emergency button as he knew it would likely stop trains in his path, instead using the priority button and giving the Signaller a chance to give a clear route .

Equally, such a call could have, in the right (or wrong) circumstances/timings, caused 1F27 to have slowed/stopped across the junction as well

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Yes you sometimes have to think if the emergency button is the best call. The driver of the runaway sleeper at Edinburgh deliberately DIDN'T use the emergency button as he knew it would likely stop trains in his path, instead using the priority button and giving the Signaller a chance to give a clear route .

Indeed.
I'm not familiar with the topography of that area, I wonder if you can see the junction from the protecting signal? I think I read that there's a bit of a curve?

Now we know that it was a SPAD I'm wondering if the preceding signal (presumably a yellow) had a TPWS speed limit? I know that all this will be examined in forensic detail by RAIB but I will be interested to know how long the train was sliding for with the brakes on.

 

[_toommm_]

Investigators say "low adhesion" between the track and train wheels was the most likely cause of the crash between two trains in Salisbury.

Salisbury train crash: Service ran through red light after wheel slip https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59130769

 

[adc82140]

Now that the RAIB have spoken, I will share my thoughts about Sunday:

NB: I have no connection to the railway, nor do I claim to be any sort of expert in matters related to this.

I was in Salisbury on Sunday. My in laws live about 1/4 mile from the crash site. I live about 10 miles to the south. Between 8.15 and 8.30am the area experienced a "sting jet", which is a phenomenon of localised extremely strong winds off the back of a frontal storm system. We had gusts of up to 80mph. Trees were stripped of their leaves, and roads impassable. On my journey up the A338, I encountered 6 fallen trees across the road. There was so much leaf fall on the road, stopping was hazardous.

Imagine this on the rails. All day long trains would have been compacting this leaf fall. We now know what the result was.

 

[JKF]

Wonder wether the general public will still view "leaves on the line" as an excuse and/or a joke if the above statement is indeed accurate?

I’m sure the media will scream and point fingers about this incident despite the contradiction with their long-term stance of leaves on the line being a pathetic and unjustifiable excuse for delays. Maybe even shoehorn an attack on the ‘green agenda’ into articles too. Don‘t expect consistency.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Equally, such a call could, in the right (or wrong) circumstances/timings caused 1F27 to have slowed/stopped across the junction as well

Yes, that is one thing to be thankful for, it's only luck that there weren't two trains crossing over when the SWR train ran by, it could have been so much worse. I'm also thinking that if you're going to hit another train, then a slow speed side swipe and then the tunnel walls to keep the carriages more or less upright is preferable to ploughing down an embankment into God knows what as in Carmont.