Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[LNW-GW Joint]

So for, say, Bristol-Leeds, do you go Bristol-Moor St/Curzon St-Derby-Leeds, or Bristol-Moor St/Curzon St-Manchester-Leeds?
If XC splits at Birmingham we have a whole different service model to now, especially if HS2 trains reverse at Piccadilly onto NPR.
Reading-Birmingham could also go into Moor St and follow the same pattern.
But Moor St will only have 2 platforms for new services, and some might be local (ex-the Worcester/Herefords).

 

[Ianno87]

Moor Street to Curzon Street ought to be more pleasant still.

Curzon Street could very much be a "destination station", along the lines of St Pancras and actually attract people to change there.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That has always been my experience too. Changing trains XC trains at Birmingham New St is always a nightmare with connections missed, lots of stairs and the hassle of boarding an already overcrowded train (and having to kick other passengers out of your reserved seats).

Quite apart from the fact that it is already easily possible to avoid using any stairs at New Street (except possibly from Platform 1 and even there one can use a lift) surely the point is that Curzon Street will be a terminal and Moor Street a partial terminal next door. I have no doubt that any vertical differences will be well ironed out with appropriate technology as both are (re-)built.

And trains will largely be terminating/originating at both stations so I am not quite clear where "boarding an already overcrowded train..." fits in let alone that I'm sure that ticketing and reservation technology will have advanced by the time that it is all built anyway.

As I have commented before (and I accept that this is a personal preference that I avoid attributing to everyone else) as a regular user of XC from either Manchester/Stockport or Chesterfield/Sheffield and despite being no spring chicken any longer I often plan to break my journey en route at Birmingham, Cheltenham, Reading or wherever to stretch my legs or have a meal. Not everyone is a businessman on a tight schedule.

 

[swt_passenger]

They made a big thing of it in 2007, when XC started to be recast into the current pattern (e.g. removing direct XC services via the Northern WCML). Some people, predictably, kicked up a stink about it when it was proposed, so there was things like "if you don't like New Street, you can change at Coventry /Cheltenham /Wolverhampton /Stafford /Derby instead"

That was, of course, in the context of old, gotty, cramped, pre-rebuild Birmingham New Street. It's now a much more pleasant place to change trains.

IIRC from discussions at the time, although they recommended in their timetable booklets making “same platform” changes at various stations away from New St, (and I’d add Leamington Spa to the list), I don’t think journey planners were ever changed, and they carried on showing New St by default?

 

[Roast Veg]

So for, say, Bristol-Leeds, do you go Bristol-Moor St/Curzon St-Derby-Leeds, or Bristol-Moor St/Curzon St-Manchester-Leeds?

The latter will be much faster, and with no change required at Manchester. The former would require a change at Sheffield and be about 30-45 minutes slower once you take that into account.

Curzon Street could very much be a "destination station", along the lines of St Pancras and actually attract people to change there.

Indeed, especially with such a large area. Looking forward to it.

 

[takno]

Taking an example journey from Bristol to Newcastle, the service will run at significantly higher speeds between Curzon Street and Marsden saving a projected 39 minutes (compared to today) (IRP page 18). Assuming a 10 minute change from Curzon Street to Moor Street (IRP page 119), and a worst case wait of 20 minutes (IRP page 59) for a HS2/NPR train, that's still a faster journey.

So the absolute best-case time-saving is 29 minutes. That assumes a 10 minute change is possible, which sounds optimistic to me, given that only the very front of the stations are next to each other, and the HS2 trains will be hundreds of metres long, and with the much-mentioned baggage in tow. It also assumes I have a walk-up ticket, since if I have a booked seat on the HS2 train I will need to have a much longer minimum change in order to keep the journey planner happy.

A more realistic scenario is a roughly zero time-saving northbound, and about 10 minutes longer heading south, where I'll be connecting onto an hourly train and will need a longer connection to be safe.

Added to that I'm apparently expected to not only change trains in Birmingham, but also to change direction in Manchester, and to do a large proportion of the journey through tunnels. Nothing about this crackpot scheme is likely to appeal to anybody.

 

[BayPaul]

So for, say, Bristol-Leeds, do you go Bristol-Moor St/Curzon St-Derby-Leeds, or Bristol-Moor St/Curzon St-Manchester-Leeds?
If XC splits at Birmingham we have a whole different service model to now, especially if HS2 trains reverse at Piccadilly onto NPR.
Reading-Birmingham could also go into Moor St and follow the same pattern.
But Moor St will only have 2 platforms for new services, and some might be local (ex-the Worcester/Herefords).

My understanding, looking at the plan, is that you would catch a Bristol-Moor Street (which would terminate there), then a Curzon Street - Leeds (via Manchester).
Not sure what happens to Reading services, these were not mentioned in the plan as far as I could see, so I would expect them to remain as New Street services.

 

[Ianno87]

IIRC from discussions at the time, although they recommended in their timetable booklets making “same platform” changes at various stations away from New St, (and I’d add Leamington Spa to the list), I don’t think journey planners were ever changed, and they carried on showing New St by default?

Yep. Most folk just did/do whatever the journey planner told/tells them to do. Or change at New Street anyway as it has the best facilities/better chance of onward alternative connections in the event of delay.

 

[158756]

Agreed, I'd be astonished if it wasn't. But then again, the Ordsall Chord was built without the other essential works to enable its effective use...



I doubt that would be too hard to achieve. Stations aren't that expensive in the scheme of things, and planning gain from a large business park would easily fund it.

In the new post-Covid world though, with many office workers now working from home, the market for air travel having collapsed and only likely to come under further pressure in the drive for net zero, who wants to build a business park at the airport? Especially if it requires contributions to a station - are there any cost estimates available for that, because it's certainly not going to come cheap, and developers will always try to weasel out of any contributions if at all possible.

 

[Purple Orange]

Do you regularly travel on this route? Well I do a heck of a lot between Plymouth and Bristol whilst at work, and there is a very large proportion of over 60s travelling on these trains. The demographic of the south west is much older than the rest of the UK and making this part of the UK have fewer through journeys really isn't the best idea.

I tend to travel on the services to/from Manc to Brum mostly, but also to Bristol. In prior lives heavily on the Brum-NE leg. It’s a TOC that I am not a fan of at all and I think the markets it caters for can be better served post HS2 in other ways.

 

[21C101]

It's already quicker to change at Birmingham to get to Edinburgh. Doesn't mean it's more convenient. In the case of the northeast under this plan you'll be changing for the sake of about 30 miles at high speed, which is extremely unlikely to work out quicker than a through train.

Especially when the first one runs late and the connection is missed.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A little FB update from the Stocksbridge MP, if anyone is interested.

*HS2 and local rail links*

Yesterday's Integrated Rail Plan announcement is great news for Sheffield and South Yorkshire, delivering faster journeys and improved connectivity more than a decade earlier than the original HS2 plan.

The Plan includes:
• Full electrification of the existing mainline down to London, with work starting by the end of 2021
• HS2 trains connecting Sheffield to Birmingham and London
• 30-minute reduction in the journey time between Sheffield and London - exactly the same as under the original HS2 plan
• A plan to halve the journey time between Sheffield and Leeds
• An extra fast train between Sheffield and Manchester every hour as part of the upgrade to the Hope Valley Line.

What this means is that Sheffield will see exactly the same benefits as the original HS2 plan, but delivered more quickly, more cheaply, and without the need to build an entirely new line into the city.

Many local people have told me that what matters far more than building a brand new line to London is getting real improvements to their local journeys here in South Yorkshire.

That's why I've submitted a bid for £48million to upgrade the Penistone Line between Barnsley and Huddersfield, and why I was so thrilled that the Chancellor has awarded us £50,000 to develop the proposal to bring passenger trains back to the existing line between Stocksbridge and Sheffield.

This Integrated Rail Plan delivers exactly what we need - faster journeys and better connectivity, but without the cost and delay of HS2.

You can read more about my work to improve public transport, including why I changed my mind earlier this year about HS2, on my website: https://www.miriamcates.org.uk/campaigns/public-transport-works

I don't get where the halving the journey time between Sheffield and Leeds that she (Miriam Cates, the Penistone and Stocksbridge MP) quotes is coming from. But out of interest, I followed through her website link. A lot of what she's saying makes sense - and she does seem to understand a lot of the nuances in the arguments. For example, look at this, from her blog explaining why she changed her mind on HS2 and now opposes the Eastern leg:

Birmingham and Manchester do suffer from a lack of capacity on the route into London, but this is simply not the case for Sheffield

<snip>

there is a serious lack of station capacity in central Sheffield, and the addition of HS2 services to a station with no room to expand is 
only going to reduce the already low number of regional and commuter trains that can serve the city.

To my mind, that shows - for an MP - a surprising attention to the detailed issues. And - for anyone cynically minded - she wrote this before the IRP plans were published - so it's unlikely to be an attempt to defend them post-publication.

That's

 

[BayPaul]

In the new post-Covid world though, with many office workers now working from home, the market for air travel having collapsed and only likely to come under further pressure in the drive for net zero, who wants to build a business park at the airport? Especially if it requires contributions to a station - are there any cost estimates available for that, because it's certainly not going to come cheap, and developers will always try to weasel out of any contributions if at all possible.

Ignore the airport - What's the market for building a business park with regular, high frequency, high speed trains direct to London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and York, as well as other long distance and local services nearby
I'd say that's pretty attractive! It'll be about the best connected location in the country

 

[Mwc]

Indeed that's why politically HS2 has been such a mixed bag, as unlike a commuter railway (or indeed a road) the majority of people along the route get no benefit

The wcml through Northampton will be freed up by HS2.... More freight and services to Euston and bham..

 

[Roast Veg]

A more realistic scenario is a roughly zero time-saving northbound, and about 10 minutes longer heading south, where I'll be connecting onto an hourly train and will need a longer connection to be safe.

I don't want to keep going back and forth on what the timetable says versus your perception of the reality, but I don't think your projected timings are realistic. 1tph between Bristol and Birmingham is almost certainly not going to cut it in 2040, especially when Cheltenham to London will be faster via HS2. In any case, I think you're being needlessly pessimistic about the reliability of NPR/HS2. You can have almost as long as you like though, since it's 3tph on the speedy end. You'll also stand a much better chance of a comfortable journey from Birmingham onwards. Except:

Added to that I'm apparently expected to not only change trains in Birmingham,

Which by all accounts will be quite pleasant, as discussed above.

but also to change direction in Manchester,

I'll freely admit I don't like this. I can't travel backwards at all, and combined with compulsory reservations would mean I'd be standing for one leg of this journey. It's a shame, but there are quite a few journeys requiring a reversal today, including Birmingham to Aberystwyth.

and to do a large proportion of the journey through tunnels.

Conveniently enough, the tunnels are located in places where the train will be travelling fastest relative to today. The two rather go hand in hand in urban or hilly areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the new post-Covid world though, with many office workers now working from home, the market for air travel having collapsed and only likely to come under further pressure in the drive for net zero, who wants to build a business park at the airport? Especially if it requires contributions to a station - are there any cost estimates available for that, because it's certainly not going to come cheap, and developers will always try to weasel out of any contributions if at all possible.

If you are right, then to me HS2 2B has very little value and should be cancelled, with the Golborne connection much more important. If the Airport station isn't built, then HS2 services must serve Stockport.

 

[JKF]

So the absolute best-case time-saving is 29 minutes. That assumes a 10 minute change is possible, which sounds optimistic to me, given that only the very front of the stations are next to each other, and the HS2 trains will be hundreds of metres long, and with the much-mentioned baggage in tow. It also assumes I have a walk-up ticket, since if I have a booked seat on the HS2 train I will need to have a much longer minimum change in order to keep the journey planner happy.

A more realistic scenario is a roughly zero time-saving northbound, and about 10 minutes longer heading south, where I'll be connecting onto an hourly train and will need a longer connection to be safe.

Added to that I'm apparently expected to not only change trains in Birmingham, but also to change direction in Manchester, and to do a large proportion of the journey through tunnels. Nothing about this crackpot scheme is likely to appeal to anybody.

Alternatively, you stay on a direct ‘classic lines’ service that benefits from the speeding up of the Derby-Sheffield section, and eventually perhaps a fast line to Leeds. That might be worth a few minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ignore the airport - What's the market for building a business park with regular, high frequency, high speed trains direct to London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and York, as well as other long distance and local services nearby
I'd say that's pretty attractive! It'll be about the best connected location in the country

That was more my thought, I would be surprised if it didn't happen.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I don't get where the halving the journey time between Sheffield and Leeds that she (Miriam Cates, the Penistone and Stocksbridge MP) quotes is coming from. But out of interest, I followed through her website link. A lot of what she's saying makes sense - and she does seem to understand a lot of the nuances in the arguments. For example, look at this, from her blog explaining why she changed her mind on HS2 and now opposes the Eastern leg:



To my mind, that shows - for an MP - a surprising attention to the detailed issues. And - for anyone cynically minded - she wrote this before the IRP plans were published - so it's unlikely to be an attempt to defend them post-publication.

That's

She wrote the article around 3 weeks ago. The cynic in me says she (along with half the population) read the "leaks". Unfortunately for her the Leeds to Clayton HSL has been dropped so no current plan to halve Leeds to Sheffield journey times.

 

[takno]

Alternatively, you stay on a direct ‘classic lines’ service that benefits from the speeding up of the Derby-Sheffield section, and eventually perhaps a fast line to Leeds. That might be worth a few minutes.

That's definitely the preference. It's just going to be a bit difficult if the trains from the Southwest go into Moor St and terminate rather than carrying on.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I honestly can't believe people are arguing that the South West shouldn't have a direct through train to the North that is actually fast and convenient for people (even before COVID the XC service was poor to say the least - now with it requiring a change in Birmingham it is simply pathetic). All this talk about how the North is being left behind by this government - but the same people talking about that are happy for the South West to suffer by the looks of it.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I honestly can't believe people are arguing that the South West shouldn't have a direct through train to the North. All this talk about how the North is being left behind by this government - but the same people talking about that are happy for the South West to suffer by the looks of it.

Well said!

 

[Ianno87]

In the new post-Covid world though, with many office workers now working from home, the market for air travel having collapsed and only likely to come under further pressure in the drive for net zero, who wants to build a business park at the airport? Especially if it requires contributions to a station - are there any cost estimates available for that, because it's certainly not going to come cheap, and developers will always try to weasel out of any contributions if at all possible.

Ignore the airport - What's the market for building a business park with regular, high frequency, high speed trains direct to London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and York, as well as other long distance and local services nearby
I'd say that's pretty attractive! It'll be about the best connected location in the country

That was more my thought, I would be surprised if it didn't happen.

It's also well over a decade into the future when Covid is (hopefully) a Dim and Distant memory and people will be wanting to meet up in person and collaborate as if nothing had ever happened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I honestly can't believe people are arguing that the South West shouldn't have a direct through train to the North that is actually fast and convenient for people (even before COVID the XC service was poor to say the least - now with it requiring a change in Birmingham it is simply pathetic). All this talk about how the North is being left behind by this government - but the same people talking about that are happy for the South West to suffer by the looks of it.

Do people from the Westcountry often go to Leeds-Newcastle inclusive? Wouldn't have thought so.

 

[the sniper]

I think this alteration to HS2 is the least of the greater railway's concerns. You've got large swathes of the network with no plans for electrification and a mentality that has indicated what 'plan' there is includes the likes of the Bakerloo line running with at least 60+ year old stock. That thinking will leave the wider network in a far more perilous situation in 20 years than the question of how many minutes quicker the people of Leeds could potentially have gotten to Manchester, Birmingham or London or how inconvenient changing in Birmingham travelling cross country would be on a potentially quicker journey.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

She wrote the article around 3 weeks ago. The cynic in me says she (along with half the population) read the "leaks". Unfortunately for her the Leeds to Clayton HSL has been dropped so no current plan to halve Leeds to Sheffield journey times.

I'm not sure that quite explains it: You're correct that the article I quoted was from around 3 weeks ago, but that article didn't say anything about Sheffield to Leeds journey times. The strange comment attributed to her about halving Sheffield to Leeds times is attributed to her by @WestRiding, in post #629 of this thread and is supposedly from a Facebook post, which I can't track down (so I'm assuming it's real). And the relevant text is:

Yesterday's Integrated Rail Plan announcement is great news for Sheffield and South Yorkshire, delivering faster journeys and improved connectivity more than a decade earlier than the original HS2 plan.

<snip>

A plan to halve the journey time between Sheffield and Leeds

The bolded bit makes it clear that was published yesterday. The only thing I can think is, maybe she rushed that out without reading the plan properly?

 

[Peterthegreat]

I'm not sure that quite explains it: You're correct that the article I quoted was from around 3 weeks ago, but that article didn't say anything about Sheffield to Leeds journey times. The strange comment attributed to her about halving Sheffield to Leeds times is attributed to her by @WestRiding, in post #629 of this thread and is supposedly from a Facebook post, which I can't track down (so I'm assuming it's real). And the relevant text is:



The bolded bit makes it clear that was published yesterday. The only thing I can think is, maybe she rushed that out without reading the plan properly?

Try this link.

(1) Miriam Cates | Facebook

 

[BayPaul]

I honestly can't believe people are arguing that the South West shouldn't have a direct through train to the North that is actually fast and convenient for people (even before COVID the XC service was poor to say the least - now with it requiring a change in Birmingham it is simply pathetic). All this talk about how the North is being left behind by this government - but the same people talking about that are happy for the South West to suffer by the looks of it.

For me, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have a direct service, just that it isn't the end of the world that we don't, providing the XC service moves to Moor Street. Hopefully, at some point in the not so distant future, a link will be built, and through services restored.

 

[takno]

For me, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have a direct service, just that it isn't the end of the world that we don't, providing the XC service moves to Moor Street. Hopefully, at some point in the not so distant future, a link will be built, and through services restored.

If it moves to Moor Street it doesn't have the option to continue onward to the north - it can go to Stourbridge and onward to Worcester, or it can reverse and head for Banbury

 

[Ianno87]

Random side comment:

The thread and debate is considerably more engaging to be involved with in diving into the nuances and pros/cons of the IRP than trying to make a dent into the shouty 280-characters-or-less soundbites over on the Twittersphere.

Over here we can all say whatever our opinion and viewpoint is, with proper change to argue/justify/critique it, and not just gain false confirmation by how many 'likes' our own echo chamber happens to get.