Austria (and perhaps other European countries?) return to full lockdown

[Busaholic]

I doubt the Dutch authorities share that belief, they seem to have had tear gas and water cannon available quickly enough, as in many other european countries

My experiences of living in Holland were long ago, but I found it a myth that the population as a whole could be categorised as laid back or liberal, particularly outside Amsterdam. As someone used to the London of the time, it was a pretty conservative country still, though much better than Belgium where, even in 1969, a male with other than short back and sides haircut would get stared at (and worse) in Brussels and thrown out of a youth hostel for no good reason, accompanied by much swearing in Flemish, which went over my head! Never attempted to hitchhike there either, despite lack of cash caused by strict Exchange Control measures. The Amsterdam police were focussed on the 'events' of 1968 in Paris and determined that nothing like that was going to happen in their country, hence the water cannon and police motorbikes with sidecars, in which would sit other cops armed with truncheons. These bikes were then driven along pavements or in open spaces like squares with the truncheoned cop swiping at anyone who got in their way, and I mean anyone, which included reporters. This, I should add, was in the vicinity of the peaceful demonstrations where the water cannon was being deployed, and I believe I was there the first time it was used (I only remember one cannon) and duly received a drenching, like a right of passage. Still, it was May/June, it was daytime and I was 21, so laughed it off like everyone else there. The only anger was in the 'country' cops brought in by the government to assist the more reasonable and tolerant Amsterdam ones. Even my arrest and locking up for two and a half days (I was never charged) was ended by a visit from a plainclothes top cop who apologised for it, said it was necessary to detain a couple of people in close vicinity to me who were of interest to them without arousing too many suspicions, and I was welcome to stay in their country as long as I liked (this was pre-Common Market.) When my belongings and passport were handed back to me, I found double the amount of money I'd gone in with, which came in very handy! Holland was then still very much aligned to Germany, which country had invaded them pretty much in a day during WW2, and political sympathies in the areas outside the cities, if tested, would probably show up some fairly orthodox extreme right wing tendencies, particularly against Anglophones.

 

[duncanp]

Maybe, but at the same time implementing new measures around the anniversary of lockdown 3, which was widely seen as the bleakest period of covid so far, and also the fact that "it's now 2022 and we're still bothered about covid", together these won't sit well for many.

What I really meant is that Boris Johnson will try and avoid implementing Plan B unless absolutely necessary.

The only thing that would force his hand would be a significant increase in cases - I am reasonably confident that Boris will resist all the SAGE scaremongering, and it is noticeable that SAGE have toned down their rhetoric in recent weeks.

He would certainly want to avoid implementing Plan B over Christmas and the New Year, so that is why I said the new year is the most likely time for it to happen, IF indeed it happens at all.

I hope that Operation Rampdown includes a legal ban on any venue or setting refusing access to someone who is not wearing a face covering or doesn't have the requisite number of vaccinations. Any notices purporting to suggest that masks are compulsory, or even "expected", must be removed.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It appears that the unrest is continuing for a third night.

Covid: Huge protests across Europe over new restrictions

Belgium says 35,000 took part in protests, with unrest in the Netherlands, Austria and Italy.

www.bbc.co.uk

It was only a matter of time before things like this would happen, the past two years world governments have infringed upon our freedoms in such a nefarious way in Western countries where we have taken freedom for granted before Covid, that the fact that they think they can enforce restrictions upon those who make a choice about their bodies shows that world governments have completely lost their minds and are displaying such arrogance about what they can do to citizens who vote for them.

 

[brad465]

It appears that the unrest is continuing for a third night.

Covid: Huge protests across Europe over new restrictions

Belgium says 35,000 took part in protests, with unrest in the Netherlands, Austria and Italy.

www.bbc.co.uk

It was only a matter of time before things like this would happen, the past two years world governments have infringed upon our freedoms in such a nefarious way in Western countries where we have taken freedom for granted before Covid, that the fact that they think they can enforce restrictions upon those who make a choice about their bodies shows that world governments have completely lost their minds and are displaying such arrogance about what they can do to citizens who vote for them.

At the moment that is a first night for Belgium by the looks of things, I suspect we'll get details in the coming hours about whether a third night of unrest in the Netherlands is happening. That said many outsiders will believe it's a third night overall, so will achieve the perception of longevity, if that's a thing.

 

[MikeWM]

I think this is because most people are vaccinated now.

So a smaller percentage of vaccinated people being hospitalised multiplied by a larger number of vaccinated people means more vaccinated than unvaccinated people will end up in hospital.

Oh, indeed - that's definitely true - as I said above, once you normalise this by the proportions of vaccinated and unvaccinated then you see that the vaccinated are indeed doing significantly better in terms of needing to stay in hospital (by about 70% or so on these stats - decent, but a long way short of the 95% we were told back at the start of the year...)

What would be interesting is to know the average length of stay in hospital for vaccinated vs unvaccinated people.

Yes, agreed - if one group had significantly longer mean stay in days than the other, they could skew my conclusion. I don't know that this data is published, however?

Up to a third of daily "admissions" actually are already in hospital when they test positive. If you're admitted to hospital for anything, then you're likely to be quite sick anyway. People will still die in hospital as a result of heart failure, cancer, pulmonary embolus, etc etc. Some of these will have tested positive. Still we don't get daily figures for people admitted to hospital who are ill because of Covid, nor to we get daily figures of deaths where Covid is the primary cause. "within 28 days of a positive test" or "where Covid is mentioned on the death certificate" means nothing.

And that matters too, and again may skew my conclusions earlier. I note in the PHE report under the death stats they suggest the death stats for vaccinated people may be skewed by 'with' rather than 'of', but for some reason they don't apply the same disclaimer to unvaccinated people. Perhaps there is an effect there too, but without actual data, it seems to just be speculation.

 

[domcoop7]

My experiences of living in Holland were long ago, but I found it a myth that the population as a whole could be categorised as laid back or liberal, particularly outside Amsterdam. As someone used to the London of the time, it was a pretty conservative country still, though much better than Belgium where, even in 1969, a male with other than short back and sides haircut would get stared at (and worse) in Brussels and thrown out of a youth hostel for no good reason, accompanied by much swearing in Flemish, which went over my head! Never attempted to hitchhike there either, despite lack of cash caused by strict Exchange Control measures. The Amsterdam police were focussed on the 'events' of 1968 in Paris and determined that nothing like that was going to happen in their country, hence the water cannon and police motorbikes with sidecars, in which would sit other cops armed with truncheons. These bikes were then driven along pavements or in open spaces like squares with the truncheoned cop swiping at anyone who got in their way, and I mean anyone, which included reporters. This, I should add, was in the vicinity of the peaceful demonstrations where the water cannon was being deployed, and I believe I was there the first time it was used (I only remember one cannon) and duly received a drenching, like a right of passage. Still, it was May/June, it was daytime and I was 21, so laughed it off like everyone else there. The only anger was in the 'country' cops brought in by the government to assist the more reasonable and tolerant Amsterdam ones. Even my arrest and locking up for two and a half days (I was never charged) was ended by a visit from a plainclothes top cop who apologised for it, said it was necessary to detain a couple of people in close vicinity to me who were of interest to them without arousing too many suspicions, and I was welcome to stay in their country as long as I liked (this was pre-Common Market.) When my belongings and passport were handed back to me, I found double the amount of money I'd gone in with, which came in very handy! Holland was then still very much aligned to Germany, which country had invaded them pretty much in a day during WW2, and political sympathies in the areas outside the cities, if tested, would probably show up some fairly orthodox extreme right wing tendencies, particularly against Anglophones.

I've never lived in Holland (but my wife has), but my experience of travelling there outside Amsterdam is the same.

There's a funny view of Europe in general (particularly amongst the younger anti-Brexit crown) by some Brits who think it's some sort of liberal hippy Marxist paradise. It couldn't be further from the truth. I mean yes probably Barcelona and Berlin (and Amsterdam) are like that, but these places are very much the exception. Whereas in the UK London is a bit different but not hugely different in outlook and attitude to anywhere else (although it thinks it is, but that's another topic).

I know this is a generalisation, but in some rural Netherlands town or village, everybody dresses the same. Everybody does the same thing at the same time day in day out. Everybody eats the same food (usually meat and fries), every day. They look at you funny if you don't want to go to the bar for a drink at exactly 6:30pm, and they look at you funny if you don't leave after exactly 45 minutes (you must be an English alcoholic!) if you're older than about 35. They listen to the same 80's music as they've listened to since they were 18 and tut about people appearing to be too ostentatious or different. I don't know how to describe it, but it's what I imagine a rural village in Yorkshire might have been like in the 60s.

Small town Denmark is even more conservative, every house has their curtains open and people criticise other people based on their interior furniture if it's no conforming to the "norm"! Most houses fly the Danish flag (as to which there are strict protocols as to the shape and size and when it can be raised, etc.). And attitudes in general in Continental Europe are often much stricter than in the UK. In Denmark, for example, the current government which is their equivalent of the Labour party has a strong anti-immigrant anti-asylum seeker policy of the sort that even the UKIP would probably baulk at. And ask a Romanian what they'd think if their son / daughter married a black woman (or was gay), and you'll get a very different response to what you get in Britain. In fact ask them what they'd think if they married a Hungarian or Russian or Bulgarian or Turkish person - it's an eye-opener!

So it doesn't surprise me in the least that it comes more easily to the governments of many European countries to go in with tough restrictions on the population more quickly than it would here. They know such policies are likely to get a lot of support. And it's also not really a surprise that when the odd protest does occur, they go in with the water cannon and paramilitary police. We don't even have a Gendarmerie / Carabinieri / Guardia Civil in the UK.

Touch-wood, I don't think the UK gov would seriously consider such a thing as compulsory vaccination. In a rational world it would be politically infeasible, because the opposition would hammer them. Sadly I don't think we can rely on that, in fact the current opposition would just say they should have introduced the policy a week earlier. But there is a limit to how far the government can go, and even the last lockdown earlier this year was pretty much as far as they could go (and towards the end pretty much ignored).

 

[brad465]

The Telegraph are making sure their reader base know about the rioting in Europe:

 

[ExRes]

The Telegraph are making sure their reader base know about the rioting in Europe:

View attachment 105977

I'd suggest that the Telegraph readership are intelligent enough to already know that rioting is taking place in a number of European countries and the methods being used to attempt to control said riots, you're not suggesting that the use of water cannon, tear gas and mounted police by EU governments against their nationals should be ignored by the UK press are you?

 

[brad465]

I'd suggest that the Telegraph readership are intelligent enough to already know that rioting is taking place in a number of European countries and the methods being used to attempt to control said riots, you're not suggesting that the use of water cannon, tear gas and mounted police by EU governments against their nationals should be ignored by the UK press are you?

I absolutely don't think this behaviour should be ignored, but were it being ignored it wouldn't be the first time unrest/protesting elsewhere in the world was ignored. The Farmer's protests in India recently ended after several months with victory for the protestors as Modi backed down on farming reforms, but the media gave it very little attention, despite its magnitude and duration, as if they had a vested interest not to report on a population protesting against actions by its Government. Thankfully these protests/riots are getting coverage so for now lack of reporting isn't an issue.

 

[kristiang85]

I'd suggest that the Telegraph readership are intelligent enough to already know that rioting is taking place in a number of European countries and the methods being used to attempt to control said riots, you're not suggesting that the use of water cannon, tear gas and mounted police by EU governments against their nationals should be ignored by the UK press are you?

The use of live ammunition at the weekend by the Dutch police is what disturbed me the most.

Also Austria's description of those protesting against compulsory vaccinces and/or restrictions as "radicalised" is also very concerning.

I think the risk of a second Christmas being 'cancelled' has focused the minds of many in the population (in Europe they take it even more seriously than here, generally), so I can't see these protests abating if the govermnents continue down this line.

 

[yorkie]

I think the average person is opposed to oppressive measures but has no intention of engaging in dangerous illegal acts to protest against them.

Many people will flout rules though, such as limits to social contacts, and in some cases e.g. when we were theoretically not allowed to sit on a bench in a park alone, many people would see such minor breaches of the rules as absolutely justified.

I'm very glad Labour aren't in charge in England as I have no doubt they would be oppressing us if they were.

Those calling for "plan B" seem to have gone relatively quiet now and are generally being ignored.

 

[WestCoast]

Tried importing the NHS cert, comes up as Not Valid. (expires 14.12.21)

Sorry I missed this. I’m not sure what the England & Wales certs are like, but I scanned my second vaccine QR code from the NHS Scotland app into the German app and it came up as valid (although I think you may have to scan every few weeks).

 

[SargeNpton]

The Telegraph are making sure their reader base know about the rioting in Europe:

View attachment 105977

Not just the Telegraph though is it...

Tens of thousands of protesters clash with police as Covid surges in Europe

Belgian riot police turned their water cannon on demonstrators marching through the capital Brussels on Sunday as the crowds threw stones, fireworks and smoke bombs at officers

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not, there really is only so far you can push people before they snap. What did surprise me was that there wasn't more civil unrest in this country. I had honestly expected far more resistance to restrictions here than we actually saw. And to be frank this worries me, have we really become so compliant as a country that we will allow governments to dictate what we can and cannot do with our daily lives? Worrying times indeed.

Have you thrown any missiles at the police or caused any unrest?

England is mostly supine in the face of authority; there's often talk of "causing riots or unrest" but most of that is just talk, isn't it? Most people who wish for this - even genuinely - just wish someone else would pick up the stone and throw it at the police. On their behalf, perhaps.

 

[kristiang85]

Have you thrown any missiles at the police or caused any unrest?

England is mostly supine in the face of authority; there's often talk of "causing riots or unrest" but most of that is just talk, isn't it? Most people who wish for this - even genuinely - just wish someone else would pick up the stone and throw it at the police. On their behalf, perhaps.

This is very true. But also we tend to be very supressed when it comes to civil unrest, and then it completely blows up like in 2011.

I think, given the cost of living squeeze happening here and a general dissatisfaction with the way the government is running the country, any kind of reimposition of COVID measures this winter *could* give rise to conditions that will make people snap.

But you're totally right that these kind of things happen far less here than our neighbours on the continent.

 

[bramling]

Have you thrown any missiles at the police or caused any unrest?

England is mostly supine in the face of authority; there's often talk of "causing riots or unrest" but most of that is just talk, isn't it? Most people who wish for this - even genuinely - just wish someone else would pick up the stone and throw it at the police. On their behalf, perhaps.

Yes you’re right we don’t really do torching cars and the like (which isn’t a bad thing). However British people do find ways of testing the limits, which is quite easy to do with our police force being rather thinly spread.

I know this example keeps coming up, but masks on TfL is a case in point. There’s notices and announcements galore, yet over half of people are steadfast in ignoring it. Even the Khan army - the “hundreds of enforcement officers” are quietly standing around chatting, and doing little if any actual enforcement.

The one problem we have is the work from homes. They are happy to cherry-pick. However this is essentially a Home Counties thing, in large numbers at any rate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes you’re right we don’t really do torching cars and the like (which isn’t a bad thing). However British people do find ways of testing the limits, which is quite easy to do with our police force being rather thinly spread.

I know this example keeps coming up, but masks on TfL is a case in point. There’s notices and announcements galore, yet over half of people are steadfast in ignoring it. Even the Khan army - the “hundreds of enforcement officers” are quietly standing around chatting, and doing little if any actual enforcement.

Yes, I agree the "soft disobedience" thing is certainly real and much more so than I have seen elsewhere on my travels. I've been away for six weeks and fully expect to see even fewer masks on the Tube next week than when I left in October.

 

[brad465]

Germany's Health minister has come out with a very strong warning to the population, that they'd either be vaccinated, recovered or dead:

Germany Covid: Health minister's stark warning to get jabbed

As Germany battles a fourth Covid wave, the health minister gives a stark warning to get vaccinated.

www.bbc.co.uk

Germany's health minister has issued his starkest warning yet on the importance of getting vaccinated.
"By the end of this winter everyone in Germany will either be vaccinated, recovered or dead," Jens Spahn told a news conference in Berlin on Monday.
Germany is in the grip of a fourth wave of coronavirus. Cases are rising rapidly and many hospitals are full.
It has one of the lowest vaccination rates in Western Europe, with 68% of people fully vaccinated.
Germany's infection rate is at its highest since the pandemic began, and health experts have warned this wave could be the worst yet.
In the past 24 hours, there have been 30,643 new infections - 7,000 more than a week ago. This is among the highest rates in the world.
Tighter restrictions are to be brought in which will see the unvaccinated excluded from certain venues, and some Germany's famed Christmas markets have been cancelled.
Mr Spahn said he was against making Covid vaccines compulsory, but that it was a "moral obligation" to get the jab because it impacts on other people.
"Freedom means taking responsibility, and there is a duty to society to get vaccinated," he said.
The minister said the highly contagious Delta variant is driving the latest wave and that "anyone who is not vaccinated will, over the next few months, become infected and lack protection".

This is though a flawed statement, as it's possible to be any combination of all three of those, given jabbed people have got it and recovered, and, while relatively rare, some have had the unfortunate situation of experiencing all three, or the first and last.

 

[joncombe]

Germany's Health minister has come out with a very strong warning to the population, that they'd either be vaccinated, recovered or dead:

Germany Covid: Health minister's stark warning to get jabbed

As Germany battles a fourth Covid wave, the health minister gives a stark warning to get vaccinated.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is though a flawed statement, as it's possible to be any combination of all three of those, given jabbed people have got it and recovered, and, while relatively rare, some have had the unfortunate situation of experiencing all three, or the first and last.

Well unless they are going to start forcibly injecting everyone I very much doubt that by the end of the winter there won't be people that that are still alive, haven't had Covid and haven't been vaccinated because last winter no one had been vaccinated and most people didn't die and didn't get Covid over the winter.

 

[Yew]

I'm very glad Labour aren't in charge in England as I have no doubt they would be oppressing us if they were.

Those calling for "plan B" seem to have gone relatively quiet now and are generally being ignored.

I just can't see the papers calling giving Jeremy Corbyn an easy ride over his 'communistic lockdowns'; they were bad enough when he wore a slightly Russian hat...

 

[Busaholic]

I just can't see the papers calling giving Jeremy Corbyn an easy ride over his 'communistic lockdowns'; they were bad enough when he wore a slightly Russian hat...

Boris Johnson has worn a very Russian style hat on numerous occasions, maybe when he was having contact with all those Russian oligarchs who were dispensing serious dosh to the Tory party back in 2018/9, the report of which never got published after the last election despite promises.

 

[kristiang85]

It looks like you can still go skiing in Austria. I guess the richer people need something to do in lockdown...

A national coronavirus lockdown in Austria does not apply to the ski slopes, it emerged on Monday.

Austrians are barred from restaurants, pubs, gyms, cinemas and all non-essential shops, and have been ordered to stay at home as much as possible.

But they are still free to leave their four walls to get exercise and fresh air — and skiing counts, after a last minute reprieve from the government.

Ski lifts and cable cars will continue to operate as an “essential service”, but will only be open to those with proof of vaccination or recovery from the virus.

The Austrian authorities said it was a question of safety to provide cable cars to prevent people getting stuck on the mountains.

But anyone in the UK hoping this means their Austrian skiing holiday may still be on will be disappointed. The slopes are staying open for locals only. Austria is closed to tourist travel and hotels have been ordered to shut until the end of the lockdown.

...

The decision may raise eyebrows given the Austrian ski resort of Ischgl was one of the epicentres of Europe’s first coronavirus outbreak.

Ski slopes remain open despite nationwide Covid lockdown in Austria

The decision has raised eyebrows, given the Ischgl ski resort was an epicentre of Europe’s first coronavirus outbreak

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[yorkie]

Germany Covid: Health minister's stark warning to get jabbed

As Germany battles a fourth Covid wave, the health minister gives a stark warning to get vaccinated.

www.bbc.co.uk

"By the end of this winter everyone in Germany will either be vaccinated, recovered or dead," Jens Spahn told a news conference in Berlin on Monday.

If we take the end of Winter to be 4 months from now, then given around 32% of their population is unvaccinated, according to my sums, that means they are expecting an average of over 180,000 infections per day between now and then

(Of course, if they think that many millions of people have already 'recovered', as is likely the case if you define asymptomatics as having 'recovered', then that figure can come down dramatically, but then that would not be consistent with their scary messaging)

That said, I do agree with the general principle that everyone is going to get exposed to the virus at some point, and it is absolutely sensible to give your body some training on how to fight the virus, given this inevitability.

It looks like you can still go skiing in Austria. I guess the richer people need something to do in lockdown...

As long as playing football outdoors is allowed, I would be happy

Joking aside, the act of skiing itself is no issue for virus transmission but the transportation of skiers to and within the resorts is likely to be a bigger risk than many banned activities.

 

[kylemore]

Germany's Health minister has come out with a very strong warning to the population, that they'd either be vaccinated, recovered or dead:
59378548[/URL]

That's ominous.

Exactly how is Jens Spahn going to ensure you are either vaccinated, recovered or.... dead.

Have these people no sense of the history of their own country?

Sinister nasty individuals.

 

[P Binnersley]

Tried importing the NHS cert, comes up as Not Valid. (expires 14.12.21)

Make sure you are scanning the QR code for the 2nd jab. My certificate has the second jab on the left. My wife's has the second jab on the right.

 

[brad465]

Here's an article by Nick Triggle on the BBC (one of the more optimistic journalists for covid), highlighting how the UK is actually well placed compared to the rest of Europe, also suggesting the UK has already had the wave Europe is seeing now:

Covid: Can UK avoid a Europe-style return to lockdown?

Good vaccine uptake and natural immunity, coupled with public caution, has put UK in a strong position.

www.bbc.co.uk

Covid infection rates have started rising sharply in parts of Western Europe, prompting the introduction of fresh restrictions and lockdowns.

It has triggered fears the UK could follow suit. But there are plenty of reasons to believe Britain will escape the worst of what is being seen on the continent. In fact, the UK may well be in the strongest position of all to weather Covid this winter.

To understand why that could be the case, you need to look at the reasons why cases have started to take off in Western Europe.

Unlike the UK - and England in particular - many parts of Europe kept major restrictions in place for much longer.

Whereas England fully unlocked in mid-July, parts of Europe did not do this until the autumn, and in many places kept tougher restrictions in place even as they did.

Part of this was to do with timing. The UK was hit by the more infectious Alpha variant and then Delta sooner, meaning it was in a position to push ahead with unlocking before others.

But it was also a conscious choice backed by the government's top scientists, Prof Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance.

The logic - along with the benefit of ending restrictions that themselves cause harm to health - was that it was better to have the rebound in infection, the so-called exit wave, in the summer.

It was felt the increase in the spread of the virus would be mitigated by the better weather, meaning more time spent outdoors, and would avoid the winter crunch when pressure on the health system increases across the board.

The UK has, in effect, already had the wave the rest of Europe is seeing and has managed to avoid being swamped by it.

That is mainly because of the amount of immunity built up.

A combination of good vaccine rollout, particularly among the older more vulnerable groups who are the ones most at risk of serious illness, and natural immunity from infection means there is likely to be a much smaller pool of vulnerable people for the virus to infect.

Researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine have been trying to quantify this by looking at what would happen if everyone was suddenly exposed to the virus in one go.

They modelled this for England - although there is nothing to suggest Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be any different - and 18 other European nations.

If this hypothetical situation happened, England would have by far the fewest people ending up in hospital - 62 per 100,000 people. That compares with more than 300 in Germany, largely because of their lower levels of infection to date, and more than 800 in Romania, which has struggled to convince its public to come forward for vaccination.

 

[bramling]

Here's an article by Nick Triggle on the BBC (one of the more optimistic journalists for covid), highlighting how the UK is actually well placed compared to the rest of Europe, also suggesting the UK has already had the wave Europe is seeing now:

Covid: Can UK avoid a Europe-style return to lockdown?

Good vaccine uptake and natural immunity, coupled with public caution, has put UK in a strong position.

www.bbc.co.uk

It is interesting to observe that mainland Europe seems to have managed to achieve the anything-but-sweet spot of having their “wave” coincide with the coldest part of winter *and* Christmas.

Pleasing to see England actually get something right on this for once.

 

[LAX54]

Make sure you are scanning the QR code for the 2nd jab. My certificate has the second jab on the left. My wife's has the second jab on the right.

Thanks for that info was scanning the first one, although in The Netherlands now, and the NHS one is accepted everywhere, many places it has to be scanned before they allow you in, (not stores) if it comes up with an 'X' you dont get in ! (ours was green tick )
Customs check UK side wanted to see ALL the paperwork, and the Dutch side just need the passports, and quite swift.

 

[DustyBin]

It is interesting to observe that mainland Europe seems to have managed to achieve the anything-but-sweet spot of having their “wave” coincide with the coldest part of winter *and* Christmas.

Pleasing to see England actually get something right on this for once.

What amazes me is that other countries didn’t see the danger when it was so obvious that this would be the case…… As you say at least common sense prevailed in England for a change.

 

[Yew]

What amazes me is that other countries didn’t see the danger when it was so obvious that this would be the case…… As you say at least common sense prevailed in England for a change.

Indeed, and now they're looking at using restrictions to push it into the flu season.