Could Carstairs be by-passed?

[cle]

I thought a bypass line was being built for the Edinburgh route, which would save a good couple of minutes.

Surely this would be appealing in advance of HS2?

 

[CW2]

Wouldn't it make for a much better alignment if you moved the station south towards the viaduct, and nearer to the village, on the relatively straight section of track? Demolish and remove the existing station, and realign through for better speeds. Build a new chord from the new station towards Edinburgh. Job done.

 

[Scotrail84]

Wouldn't it make for a much better alignment if you moved the station south towards the viaduct, and nearer to the village, on the relatively straight section of track? Demolish and remove the existing station, and realign through for better speeds. Build a new chord from the new station towards Edinburgh. Job done.

Is the farmer just going to forfeit his land to NR like?

 

[CW2]

Is the farmer just going to forfeit his land to NR like?

In my experience, the changing hands of money tends to solve issues such as this.

 

[Ianno87]

In my experience, the changing hands of money tends to solve issues such as this.

Depends how much money and whether that makes it uneconomic.

 

[cle]

Does it need a station, other than operationally? Splitting will happen at Carlisle going forward (not that it happens today), and I don't think the sleeper would be missed.

Or it could be rebuilt as a local only station, shorter and at a better location.

 

[CW2]

Does it need a station, other than operationally? Splitting will happen at Carlisle going forward (not that it happens today), and I don't think the sleeper would be missed.

Or it could be rebuilt as a local only station, shorter and at a better location.

Splitting at Carlisle (as HS2 now propose to do) makes sense now that the train maintenance depot will be nearby and Carlisle station rebuilt to accommodate splitting / joining.
With that in mind, all Carstairs needs is a local station, so two 8-carriage platforms should do it. Put in an occasional stop on a TPE service, and have the station where I suggested earlier.
Building a new link towards the Edinburgh line across the fields assumes the journey time saving for HS2 (and other) services in future would make it all worthwhile.

 

[Whistler40145]

During any remodelling, would it make sense to move the OHLE Feeder Equipment and associated Neutral Section further towards Carlisle or nearer to Motherwell?

 

[CEN60]

It may surprise you all to know that land in the area of the existing south curve (the farm I think was called Strawfrank Holdings) is currently owned by NR! The previously feasibility scheme was going to utilize part of it.

Wouldn't it make for a much better alignment if you moved the station south towards the viaduct, and nearer to the village, on the relatively straight section of track? Demolish and remove the existing station, and realign through for better speeds. Build a new chord from the new station towards Edinburgh. Job done.

Not really operationally ideal - if you move the station south onto the straight you then have to slow stopping trains down on the West Coast to stop them at the station - penalising the High Speed non stoppers!

 

[CW2]

It may surprise you all to know that land in the area of the existing south curve (the farm I think was called Strawfrank Holdings) is currently owned by NR! The previously feasibility scheme was going to utilize part of it.



Not really operationally ideal - if you move the station south onto the straight you then have to slow stopping trains down on the West Coast to stop them at the station - penalising the High Speed non stoppers!

That depends on the pathing of the trains, and on whether or not you include platform loops. Places such as Oxenholme, Penrith, and Lockerbie all seem to survive with platforms on the main line in conjunction with a nearby loop. In any case, I'd only stop there about 0.5 tph (or 1 train per 2 hours).

 

[CEN60]

That depends on the pathing of the trains, and on whether or not you include platform loops. Places such as Oxenholme, Penrith, and Lockerbie all seem to survive with platforms on the main line in conjunction with a nearby loop. In any case, I'd only stop there about 0.5 tph (or 1 train per 2 hours).

Loops would improve things - the original feasibility scheme I mentioned solved all the issues mentioned in various posts - Main Line EPS Speed pushed to 125mph to North of Carstairs on the mains - 50MPH from the North round the Midcalders - and the South Curve Fully Doubled (there is a weird situation that although 2 track currently - it is only used by one train) Speed increased and extended to run parallel with the West Coast and a flat 50mph parallel lead. It was considered to be too expensive - but the reality is the the work now being proposed will no doubt end up costing about the same with less functionality!

Ad for the record - the old Victoria Curve was looked at - but the space to situate a flat parallel lead onto it constrains the speed - there is little room after the viaduct to get a modern higher speed Jcn in. Also the track just north of the viaduct has a wiggle in it because of the cr. girder of the viaduct wide sixfoot). There was also a "pie in sky" option looked at for a grade separated junction from south of the viaduct looked at (massively expensive but rather awesome!)

 

[Senex]

Loops would improve things - the original feasibility scheme I mentioned solved all the issues mentioned in various posts - Main Line EPS Speed pushed to 125mph to North of Carstairs on the mains - 50MPH from the North round the Midcalders - and the South Curve Fully Doubled (there is a weird situation that although 2 track currently - it is only used by one train) Speed increased and extended to run parallel with the West Coast and a flat 50mph parallel lead. It was considered to be too expensive - but the reality is the the work now being proposed will no doubt end up costing about the same with less functionality!

Ad for the record - the old Victoria Curve was looked at - but the space to situate a flat parallel lead onto it constrains the speed - there is little room after the viaduct to get a modern higher speed Jcn in. Also the track just north of the viaduct has a wiggle in it because of the cr. girder of the viaduct wide sixfoot). There was also a "pie in sky" option looked at for a grade separated junction from south of the viaduct looked at (massively expensive but rather awesome!)

If the eventual idea is for HS2 trains to divide at Carlisle and run in independent portions to Glasgow and Edinburgh, wouldn't there be a case for that "pie in the sky" option (which I guess a number of us have dreamed about — 125 turnouts on the straight track south of the river, and a separate Edinburgh-line bridge) and charge it as part of the HS2 associated works, like the proposed Carlisle and Preston station stuff?

 

[CEN60]

If the eventual idea is for HS2 trains to divide at Carlisle and run in independent portions to Glasgow and Edinburgh, wouldn't there be a case for that "pie in the sky" option (which I guess a number of us have dreamed about — 125 turnouts on the straight track south of the river, and a separate Edinburgh-line bridge) and charge it as part of the HS2 associated works, like the proposed Carlisle and Preston station stuff?

The pie in sky stuff i saw had 100mph turnouts and the separate bridges you speak off. I understand the HS2 Project looked at other radical alignment diverging from the West Coast al long way south of the existing viaduct and running towards Edinburgh on a completely new alignment for a while. The problem with Carstairs is there are so many TOC's FOC's that either use it or go thru' it - but they are not interested in the bits that don't concern them. Transport Scotland need a rocket up their @rse and need to start listening to people who actually design & run the railway! In my opinion they are a hinderance to railways in Scotland - not a help (sorry rant over!)

 

[Whistler40145]

Has the extremely tight pointwork off the Edinburgh line into Carstairs station existed since the 1974 electrification through to Glasgow Central?

 

[CEN60]

Has the extremely tight pointwork off the Edinburgh line into Carstairs station existed since the 1974 electrification through to Glasgow Central?

From what I have seen it has been "eased" a little - but the stupid tight reverse still exists. Note the feasibility that I talked about previously eradicated the need for it all togther (I refer you to the previous Transport Scotland Rant)

 

[najaB]

Saw this article today:

A major project to eliminate a speed and capacity bottleneck in Scotland will affect the entire rail network. Work to remodel the layout at Carstairs, where the busy West Coast Main Line diverges for Glasgow and Edinburgh, will remedy the speed restrictions, particularly for Edinburgh services, and go someway to reversing the folly of rationalising the junction in the 1980s when faster bypass lines were removed. The project also includes provision for freight loops, which will accommodate the longest trains on the network and help facilitate further freight ambitions, notably the nearby Ravenstruther bulk loads terminal.

Carstairs remodelling: all services will benefit from the project

A major project to eliminate a speed and capacity bottleneck in Scotland will affect the entire rail network. Work to remodel the layout at Carstairs, where the busy West Coast Main Line diverges for Glasgow and Edinburgh, will remedy the speed restrictions, particularly for Edinburgh services...

www.railfreight.com

Does anybody have diagrams or similar showing what was changed in the 1980s remodelling?

 

[Railsigns]

Today's layout is essentially the same as how it was in 1972.

 

[Mag_seven]

and go someway to reversing the folly of rationalising the junction in the 1980s when faster bypass lines were removed.

I don't recall any rationalisation in the 80s and haven't a clue what "bypass lines" they are talking about.

Today's layout is essentially the same as how it was in 1972.

Agreed. Unless I'm mistaken, the only significant change has been the demolition of the original station building and some associated platform works.

 

[jfollows]

Does anybody have diagrams or similar showing what was changed in the 1980s remodelling?

Carstairs 2005 per the attached, and is little changed from the 1970s plan I have, as others have said. The attachment gives the signals and speed limits in each direction, and I suspect hasn't changed much since 2005 either.

 

[najaB]

Today's layout is essentially the same as how it was in 1972.

I don't recall any rationalisation in the 80s and haven't a clue what "bypass lines" they are talking about.

Thanks. I did wonder!

 

[snowball]

The OS map shows the remains of a former bypass line from about a mile on the Carlisle side of the station (north of the Clyde bridge) to about a mile on the Edinburgh side of the station (immediately east of the bridge over Carnwath Rd/Lampits Rd). it was closed much longer ago than the 1980s. I'm sure the exact date of closure will have been discussed in previous threads.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Try the 1880s. Century old OS maps show the direct line from the Float viaduct towards Edinburgh disused by then.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Yes, my 2.5-inch OS map also shows the remnants of a high-speed cutoff (between the sewage works and Lampits). Is this the "Victorian Curve" mentioned above?

 

[D6130]

Yes, my 2.5-inch OS map also shows the remnants of a high-speed cutoff (between the sewage works and Lampits). Is this the "Victorian Curve" mentioned above?

It was known as "The Queen's Curve" because sometime back in the 1870s (?) it was used to stable the Royal Train overnight on one occasion while Queen Victoria slept on board.

 

[92002]

The OS map shows the remains of a former bypass line from about a mile on the Carlisle side of the station (north of the Clyde bridge) to about a mile on the Edinburgh side of the station (immediately east of the bridge over Carnwath Rd/Lampits Rd). it was closed much longer ago than the 1980s. I'm sure the exact date of closure will have been discussed in previous threads.

Back in the day of GNER they planned to avoid Carstairs altogether and use the underpass line North of Law Junction to connect to the Edinburgh lines. That could not add up financially for the few fast trains and the move the station North towards Carstairs village was the chosen scheme. Then use the Southbound loop as the new alignment for fast trains to Edinburgh. This allowed a new Main line alignment and better speeds South. Which could be a possible solution. However who pays for the new station stalled the process.

The ongoing works are the best solution at best cost and are ongoing just now with a 50 TSR to protect staff on the various sites during day and night times.

Nobody yet has solid plans of HS2 and how and where both Glasgow and Edinburgh are going to go. If indeed it ever get beyond Crewe.

 

[stantheman]

Am I right on thinking Pendolinos cannot go from Carstairs station direct to Edinburgh

 

[cle]

Was this not killed a while back on financial reasons?

Knowing that there is a lot of speculation on upgrading the northern half of the WCML for HS2, and knowing this indeed will become the main London-Edinburgh rail route, I would think it could be revisited - in addition to some other works to straight up kinks, upgrade approaches (Carlisle) and raise speeds where possible.

Speeds above 125mph north of Carlisle might be interesting if they were possible with the mixed traffic (Avanti, TPE, freight and then Scotrail) - and from Carstairs up to Haymarket is another clean stretch.

 

[jfollows]

Am I right on thinking Pendolinos cannot go from Carstairs station direct to Edinburgh

No, I don't think you are.

In the first iteration of the Pendolino services, that's to say when there were 2 trains an hour London-Manchester, there was also an Edinburgh-London service. It left Edinburgh around 10am and was reasonably fast, that's to say that it used the Trent Valley route.

Be that as it may, it started ECS from Polmadie to Carstairs, from where it ran in service to Edinburgh.

I know because I used it once. There was a horribly early 05.xx Manchester Piccadilly-Glasgow Voyager service (it went via Wigan actually but the route wasn't electrified then anyway) which deposited me at Carstairs. Then I got to watch the scenery before the first GNER Glasgow-Edinburgh-King's Cross service ran past without stopping, then the ECS Pendolino from Polmadie arrived and I got on for the run to Edinburgh.

So unless something has changed since then (before 2010 for sure), Pendolinos can go from Carstairs direct to Edinburgh because it happened daily and I've done it.

EDIT The Edinburgh-London service was 1M14 10:10 Edinburgh arriving Euston 15:23, calling only at Rugby and Watford south of Crewe. The balancing working was 1S82 16:46 Euston-Edinburgh, first stop Stafford, which ran empty to Polmadie afterwards and didn't (to my recollection) offer a service to Carstairs en route. These services only lasted a couple of years until the full Pendolino service was introduced. This is from the summer 2007 working timetable, which is just about the most recent printed WTT I possess, after which time they were replaced by electronic PDF versions.

 

[Watershed]

Am I right on thinking Pendolinos cannot go from Carstairs station direct to Edinburgh

They can and they do so on a daily basis.

Was this not killed a while back on financial reasons?

Knowing that there is a lot of speculation on upgrading the northern half of the WCML for HS2, and knowing this indeed will become the main London-Edinburgh rail route, I would think it could be revisited - in addition to some other works to straight up kinks, upgrade approaches (Carlisle) and raise speeds where possible.

Speeds above 125mph north of Carlisle might be interesting if they were possible with the mixed traffic (Avanti, TPE, freight and then Scotrail) - and from Carstairs up to Haymarket is another clean stretch.

It's still happening, but the end result will likely be rather scaled back from what 'could have been'. The single lead to Edinburgh will unfortunately remain.

 

[stantheman]

Must take issue with the poster who said 390s Pendolinos can and do travel direct from Carstairs station to Edinburgh . If he cares to look at RTT it clearly shows trains proceeding south and reversing at Carstairs S Jct and then back to Edinburgh . They alternately are booked via Shotts
One such service runs from Polmadie about 1030 to Edinburgh late Sunday morning . Voyagers and 397s go direct