TFL & "Managed Decline"

[hwl]

I disagree. I live in Zone 2/3 (I’m sure you can guess where based on my username!), and the integration of bus and tube fares would switch me from the car to public transport for many journeys.

For example, if I want to go to Westfield currently via public transport, it would cost me £1.55 on the bus, and then £1.50 on the tube. That’s each way.

£6 per person return - might as well drive and park, especially if I’m travelling with someone else.

I live in Zone 3 and completely agree with @AlbertBeale

Tube and train good for radial journeys and I use them.
Orbital journey useless and better tube /bus fare integration won't change that, buses currently OK for a small number of orbital journeys (the number of changes quickly escalates (typically 1 change every 1.5- 2km) but it is mostly heads towards car for longer orbitals.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I disagree. I live in Zone 2/3 (I’m sure you can guess where based on my username!), and the integration of bus and tube fares would switch me from the car to public transport for many journeys.

For example, if I want to go to Westfield currently via public transport, it would cost me £1.55 on the bus, and then £1.50 on the tube. That’s each way.

£6 per person return - might as well drive and park, especially if I’m travelling with someone else.

Hi - I wasn't arguing about fares integration (which was already commonplace 50 years ago in some European cities); I was disagreeing with the idea that suburban bus routes needed only to run as "feeders" to the nearest underground station. Buses and tubes (even where they link or run parallel) serve different functions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi - I wasn't arguing about fares integration (which was already commonplace 50 years ago in some European cities); I was disagreeing with the idea that suburban bus routes needed only to run as "feeders" to the nearest underground station. Buses and tubes (even where they link or run parallel) serve different functions.

In some cases. Take a look at German cities for how they do provide for orbital journeys by bus while still having very few routes penetrating the city centre.

While they aren't the only routes (though there are very few of the classic Schnellbusse left), this is Hamburg's "Metrobus" network - basically all the high frequency routes (sorry about the long "via Google" URL):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-YGEk8_0AhVnQEEAHXL0Cl8QFnoECAYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hvv.de%2Fresource%2Fblob%2F10936%2F7b338748e4caf9979dd45eb4c3266db2%2Fhvv_linienplan_metrobus_alle_haltestellen_schematisch.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Auz9lNyHxuaXUSM7fG9E3

While some do go to the centre (I didn't say none would!) you can see how many of them run a wandery orbital path calling in at stations on the way, thus performing both roles.

As an aside, the 5 is the "Manchester Oxford Road equivalent" faux-tram bendybus route, which is the busiest single-number bus route in Europe despite having an U-Bahn (U2) following some of its length.

 

[johncrossley]

The other operators who use tap in tap out use single door buses - in London tap out terminals would need to be provided at the exit door and hence would be difficult to stop people tapping out when they pass the exit rather than when they get off. So its certainly feasible but would be an extra cost to install the equipment and will be subject to higher levels of fare evasion.

Metrobus and Brighton & Hove have some double door buses, so have the equipment at the exit door as well. The Netherlands OV-Chipkaart requires touch in and touch out. You need inspectors to check that people don't touch out early.

 

[XAM2175]

You need inspectors to check that people don't touch out early.

Cubic did a system for Brisbane years ago that only enabled the validators when the on-board controller's GPS detected that the bus was near a stop and either slowing down or stopped. Not perfect, but no system ever is.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Tbh I suspect London has had flat fare contactless / oyster bus fares for so long now that getting people to actually touch out is going to be a tough task. Not even through deliberate fare evasion or any disagreement with the policy, more just people have been conditioned for it just to be a touch on and that's it. Changing that will be bloody difficult!

 

[JonathanH]

Tbh I suspect London has had flat fare contactless / oyster bus fares for so long now that getting people to actually touch out is going to be a tough task. Not even through deliberate fare evasion or any disagreement with the policy, more just people have been conditioned for it just to be a touch on and that's it. Changing that will be bloody difficult!

What is difficult about telling people that if they don't touch out the fare is £3 and that touching out gives a lower fare for shorter journeys? People manage to touch on pink readers on the underground where it makes their fare cheaper. I've seen them do it.

 

[matt_world2004]

Cubic did a system for Brisbane years ago that only enabled the validators when the on-board controller's GPS detected that the bus was near a stop and either slowing down or stopped. Not perfect, but no system ever is.

Given the inaccuracies of ibus this is unlikely to work to the point of reliability where differential fares can be charged

 

[Busaholic]

What is difficult about telling people that if they don't touch out the fare is £3 and that touching out gives a lower fare for shorter journeys?

No politician is ever going to give approval to TfL to do that, given how imbued the system is, and it would be a disaster anyway.

 

[Snow1964]

Just published Monday evening
TfL Board Finance report, budget submission and capital strategy

(haven’t yet looked at it, it’s over 100 pages)

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/b2376/Supplementary%20Agenda%20-%20Item%207%20Wednesday%2008-Dec-2021%2010.00%20Board.pdf?T=9

3.1 The Budget submission presentation (appendix 1) and the TfL Budget submission to the GLA Budget (including Capital Strategy) (appendix 2)
Agenda Item 7
more detail on the Finance Committee paper from 24 November 2021, which outlined what options TfL would need to take to close its funding gap absent further funding. This followed confirmation from Government, as part of its Comprehensive Spending Review, that TfL would not receive any capital funding for 2022/23 – 2024/25 beyond the £1billion per annum devolved business rates already received.

 

[XAM2175]

Given the inaccuracies of ibus this is unlikely to work to the point of reliability where differential fares can be charged

It's been working in Brisbane for years, or I wouldn't have brought it up.

 

[matt_world2004]

It's been working in Brisbane for years, or I wouldn't have brought it up.

Yet the u4 I'm on which runs between Hayes prologis Park and uxbridge regularly throws out announcements for Oxford circus

 

[Acton1991]

TfL announce they are looking at job cuts. Between 500 and 600 staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59555640

 

[jfollows]

TfL announce they are looking at job cuts. Between 500 and 600 staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59555640

Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-underground-tube-strikes-tfl-cuts-b970468.html) may add nothing to this, but says that 250 of the job cuts will be by not filling vacant posts and the remainder by not replacing staff who leave or retire.
However that'll lead to an imbalance of jobs presumably in the sense of the right number of people to match the wages bill but not necessarily all in the right places.

It was revealed on Tuesday between 500 and 600 jobs were on the line across the Tube network as TfL desperately seeks to cut costs amid its funding crisis.
Though the plan will not involve any redundancies – TfL intends not to fill 250 vacant posts and will not replace other staff when they leave – the RMT union has announced it will ballot its members for strike action.

EDIT BBC report says much the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let them strike. It's quiet at the moment, and there are no valid grounds for the Union to object if nobody is involuntarily losing their job.

 

[Horizon22]

Plus the RMT are going to ballot on the job losses too. Although my understanding is that it will primarily be roles not being filled after becoming vacant. That’s never an strategic way to do it as you end up with gaps in the wrong places.

 

[Wolfie]

Let them strike. It's quiet at the moment, and there are no valid grounds for the Union to object if nobody is involuntarily losing their job.

Reduced staff levels at Central London tube stations potentially have some serious health and safety implications.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reduced staff levels at Central London tube stations potentially have some serious health and safety implications.

Depends which roles.

 

[Wolfie]

Depends which roles.

True enough, hence "potentially"...

 

[Mojo]

Reduced staff levels at Central London tube stations potentially have some serious health and safety implications.

Depends which roles.

All posts proposed for withdrawal at this stage are Customer Service Assistants.

 

[matt_world2004]

Everyone's suggesting complicated fare staging for buses which would require complicated technical investment to sort out

When bringing LU rate fares upto the higher national rail rate would be much simpler technically, effectively an 10% increase on rail mode ticket prices. Charging rail mode ticket prices on the tram network would also bring in an increase in revenue and remove anomalies like Wimbledon Station.

Effectively bringing the LU rate upto the NR rate would not be noticed as most people don't even know the LU rate is cheaper.

The cheapest pay as you go price on rail modes should always be the same price or more expensive than a bus

You could also do what London Transport did and add a fare supplement to X and N prefixed buses. Key workers who work nights or regularly take express buses could be protected by having these buses part of the same cap as day buses and making the weekly bus pass valid on both. With some 24 hour routes converted to N routes as well

This is the model used by tfl Rail to Heathrow where leisure traffic is charged at a premium and regular traffic isn't.

 

[leytongabriel]

I believe station staff are getting new conditions of service which can require then to work anywhere on the system and not just in thier sector. So somebody living in Walthamstow could be told to go to open Amersham station at 5am for example and taxi fares are no longer paid. This would fit in well for management with not filling posts in terms of being able to remove remaining staff around to where they are deemed necessary.

 

[matt_world2004]

I believe station staff are getting new conditions of service which can require then to work anywhere on the system and not just in thier sector. So somebody living in Walthamstow could be told to go to open Amersham station at 5am for example and taxi fares are no longer paid. This would fit in well for management with not filling posts in terms of being able to remove remaining staff around to where they are deemed necessary.

The problem with that is an European Court of Justice ruling in 2015 has required travel time from home to work and work to home has to be counted as working time for the purposes of breaks and rest period calculations if you work in multiple locations but not a fixed location.

 

[Mawkie]

I believe station staff are getting new conditions of service which can require then to work anywhere on the system and not just in thier sector. So somebody living in Walthamstow could be told to go to open Amersham station at 5am for example and taxi fares are no longer paid. This would fit in well for management with not filling posts in terms of being able to remove remaining staff around to where they are deemed necessary.

I don't believe this can be true without a wholesale throwing out of framework agreements.

Before station staff can work on a new station they need a comprehensive 'Familiarisation' which requires renewal after six months of not being on a station.

Have you got anything more concrete supporting your claim - it would be interesting to see how they will get around that.

 

[station_road]

Cubic did a system for Brisbane years ago that only enabled the validators when the on-board controller's GPS detected that the bus was near a stop and either slowing down or stopped. Not perfect, but no system ever is.

And the same applies in other cities - from a recent trip, Sydney, Melbourne and Singapore are all large cities which have high capacity 2 (or 3) door buses with touch out where the validators only become active at bus stops, or you pay the maximum fare from where you boarded.

 

[Mojo]

I believe station staff are getting new conditions of service which can require then to work anywhere on the system and not just in thier sector. So somebody living in Walthamstow could be told to go to open Amersham station at 5am for example and taxi fares are no longer paid. This would fit in well for management with not filling posts in terms of being able to remove remaining staff around to where they are deemed necessary.

That isn’t true whatsoever. There are no plans for the station staff framework to be changed again, and the staff taxi network isn’t being changed either.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Let them strike. It's quiet at the moment, and there are no valid grounds for the Union to object if nobody is involuntarily losing their job.

You haven't been on a tube recently then ? - stood off peak on a Bakerloo on Monday , peak loadings on the Jubilee from Waterloo and the trains were very , very busy. (stood on both) - and the headways were spot on with no gaps.

 

[johncrossley]

You haven't been on a tube recently then ? - stood off peak on a Bakerloo on Monday , peak loadings on the Jubilee from Waterloo and the trains were very , very busy. (stood on both) - and the headways were spot on with no gaps.

"Busy" means not being able to get on several tubes in a row.

 

[Horizon22]

"Busy" means not being able to get on several tubes in a row.

I guess this is part of the problem - if that level of passengers & crush loadings are required to get TfL back on an even keel (without extra income from government) then that simply isn’t going to happen. There will need to be a Plan B.

 

[Busaholic]

Everyone's suggesting complicated fare staging for buses which would require complicated technical investment to sort out

When bringing LU rate fares upto the higher national rail rate would be much simpler technically, effectively an 10% increase on rail mode ticket prices. Charging rail mode ticket prices on the tram network would also bring in an increase in revenue and remove anomalies like Wimbledon Station.

Effectively bringing the LU rate upto the NR rate would not be noticed as most people don't even know the LU rate is cheaper.

The cheapest pay as you go price on rail modes should always be the same price or more expensive than a bus

You could also do what London Transport did and add a fare supplement to X and N prefixed buses. Key workers who work nights or regularly take express buses could be protected by having these buses part of the same cap as day buses and making the weekly bus pass valid on both. With some 24 hour routes converted to N routes as well

This is the model used by tfl Rail to Heathrow where leisure traffic is charged at a premium and regular traffic isn't.

All that is worth considering, although reintroducing the N suffix to night routes that are the same as day routes would be reversing previous policy, In my view, for the little it's worth, all the night routes should have always had the N prefix to allow for future flexibility in matters like fares, if not routeing.