Has Covid changed your political allegience?

[43066]

Do you think this thread is representative of the wider General Public given the administrator of this forum very anti lockdown views?

I myself will be more inclined to vote Labour.

Polls recently have shown the majority of the public are generally against full lockdowns now. To be fair this forum also has several staff members, all of whom hold different views.

 

[kristiang85]

Quite. As stated earlier they have "policies" that are completely unrealistic. They "will" reform just about everything and it will lead to more efficiencies, lower taxes, a better health service, more police on the streets, a better education system etc. With actually no indication of how they will achieve these things.
How anyone can be taken in by this is beyond my comprehension.

I speak for myself here, but I would assume most of us who have said Reform in this know that what you say is true - but ultimately we realise there is a need to disrupt the arrogance of the two main parties, make them feel uncomfortable, and force change on the biggest issue we face right now, which is the COVID response and the harms it is doing to our country.

UKIP was never a truly serious political party when you look into it - it was mostly a one-issue pressure group. Yet their influence led to the EU referendum, the downfall of the Cameron government, and a sea change in British politics.

I would vote Reform in an election tomorrow not because I think they are ready for government (far from it), but because it would focus minds of Conservative/Labour on what I think is the most pressing domestic issue of our times.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Do you think this thread is representative of the wider General Public given the administrator of this forum very anti lockdown views?

I myself will be more inclined to vote Labour.

Starmer hasn’t exactly set the world on fire, he’s gone along with the Tories on everything and for people fed up with endless restrictions crowd Labour isn’t the right party to vote for

 

[35B]

Polls recently have shown the majority of the public are generally against full lockdowns now. To be fair this forum also has several staff members, all of whom hold different views.

I would draw a distinction between objections to individual policies, and party allegiances. Especially when we're probably 3 years away from a General Election and it's entirely possible that neither of the two major UK party leaders would be around to fight that election.

I would also draw a distinction between the very strong feelings of some members of the forum, where opposition to Covid policies appears as a dominant feature of their political outlook, and the majority of the population, for whom those Covid policies are one of a number of factors that will influence their vote.

In my case, as a natural "small c" conservative, the local Tories lost my vote due to the way that the local constituency party hounded out the then sitting MP during 2019, as part of the Brexiteers attempt to take over the party. My objection wasn't on policy grounds, but in connection with the mixture of petty minded nastiness that infected the decision, and my belief that MPs are elected to represent their constituents, not act as delegates for those constituents (or, more likely, a small but vocal faction of them). I dislike it when it appears in Labour (it's the view of what an MP is for that is particularly associated with the hard left), and I dislike it when it crops up elsewhere.

If Covid influences my vote, it will be part of a range of factors about the competence and quality of the different candidates I have to choose between should they get to be in a position to form a government. Given their baleful effect over the last 5 years, and especially their influence and pressure to get to a Brexit deal that has gone from best thing since sliced bread, so good that it doesn't need scrutiny, to an unconscionable gross intrusion on British sovereignty, Reform will be way, way, down that list.

 

[ExRes]

This has to be a leg pull, if I said "vote Reform UK" on any other thread I'd be neck deep in dead fish thrown by forum members, vote Lib Dem? there's nobody in that party that could bend over and tie their shoe laces without falling over, and Labour? they're more in favour of lockdowns than Boris and his 'experts'

 

[John Luxton]

What is Reform’s current stance on HS2? Whether they cancel it mid-way through construction or not would determine whether I would vote for them or not.

Anti HS2 one candidate stood as the anti-HS2 candidate.

Personally I find HS2 rather like Brexit something I just couldn't get worked up over.

I voted remain for Brexit mainly because it seemed mainstream thinking and I associated Brexit with Farage who I do not really like. However, accepted the result.

With HS2 I understand the arguments for an against. I wouldn't argue against people who say its too pricey and more could be gained by reopening closed lines or investing in existing ones, neither am I enthusiastic.

These two issues are just non-issues for me.

 

[quantinghome]

Do you think this thread is representative of the wider General Public given the administrator of this forum very anti lockdown views?

I myself will be more inclined to vote Labour.

Whatever the views of the forum admins, it's pretty clear that this thread is not representative of the public at large:



(National polling taken as the average of the last 6 polls from here: Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia)

 

[nw1]

I would draw a distinction between objections to individual policies, and party allegiances. Especially when we're probably 3 years away from a General Election and it's entirely possible that neither of the two major UK party leaders would be around to fight that election.

I actually doubt it's three. I know in principle it could be, but do you really think that whoever is PM by then would go for another winter election?

Realistically I think May or June 2024 is the latest possible date, but as political instability is likely to be a feature of the next two years, I rather suspect it will be sooner.

Whatever the views of the forum admins, it's pretty clear that this thread is not representative of the public at large:

View attachment 106960

(National polling taken as the average of the last 6 polls from here: Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia)

It does remind me rather of the result of the 2019 EU elections though.
I would like to qualify my Lib Dem vote; it's really an "anti-Johnson" tactical vote. I'd have put Labour if I was in a different constituency. But as I've said already any vote I make would not be with a great deal of enthusiasm.

The trouble when Blair opens his mouth is that people, and the Labour Party in particular, tend to then do the opposite.

This is what happens when you have a high-office politician who acquires a reputation of being honest with the truth.

To be honest I think Blair comes up for too much stick these days. Granted he's not perfect, but compared to some of the individuals who have followed him (Cameron, Johnson) he's really not so bad. The early Blair years, prior to the Afghan and Iraq wars, was perhaps the only window in my remembered lifetime (Thatcher onwards) that we had a government which implemented any progressive policies.

 

[John Luxton]

Whatever the views of the forum admins, it's pretty clear that this thread is not representative of the public at large:

View attachment 106960

(National polling taken as the average of the last 6 polls from here: Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia)

What is interesting is I imagine looking at that graph that the current polling for Reform is probably dissatisfied Tories.

Labour has probably taken the lead more as a result of Tories switching to Reform than to Labour.

What I hope happens at Oswestry is that more unhappy Tories will switch to Reform to worry Conservative party HQ.

The best thing about Reform is as someone else mentioned their ability to cause disruption and change views of the ruling parties.

They do not have to win any seats to be successful.

I imagine if they are successful many Tories, probably me included, will switch back again - though some of us might wait until BoJo goes as well.

 

[kristiang85]

What is interesting is I imagine looking at that graph that the current polling for Reform is probably dissatisfied Tories.

Indeed. I think it could be considered that, by and large, people on this forum are well informed about politics, and actually know about alternatives such as Reform. I would anticipate a lot of those conservative voters polled publicly probably have always voted Conservative and currently aren't aware of Reform as an alternative or won't consider them, as their main priority is keeping Labour out rather than thinking about policy implications.

 

[Yew]

And in the process UKIP/BP/Reform have demonstrated their utter lack of principle - pursuing whatever line they think is most likely to gain support locally, rather than actually following any principles.

I don’t care about principles, I care about whatever party will stop torturing me.

 

[35B]

What is interesting is I imagine looking at that graph that the current polling for Reform is probably dissatisfied Tories.

Labour has probably taken the lead more as a result of Tories switching to Reform than to Labour.

What I hope happens at Oswestry is that more unhappy Tories will switch to Reform to worry Conservative party HQ.

The best thing about Reform is as someone else mentioned their ability to cause disruption and change views of the ruling parties.

They do not have to win any seats to be successful.

I imagine if they are successful many Tories, probably me included, will switch back again - though some of us might wait until BoJo goes as well.

Reform are fundamentally right wing Tories, who've broken off and are acting as a ginger group.

I don’t care about principles, I care about whatever party will stop torturing me.

Beware what you ask for.

 

[quantinghome]

What is interesting is I imagine looking at that graph that the current polling for Reform is probably dissatisfied Tories.

Labour has probably taken the lead more as a result of Tories switching to Reform than to Labour.

What I hope happens at Oswestry is that more unhappy Tories will switch to Reform to worry Conservative party HQ.

The best thing about Reform is as someone else mentioned their ability to cause disruption and change views of the ruling parties.

They do not have to win any seats to be successful.

I imagine if they are successful many Tories, probably me included, will switch back again - though some of us might wait until BoJo goes as well.

Yes, that's the logical way to go for Reform - essentially a repeat of UKIP's successful strategy. The problem for Reform is that UKIP had a single clear purpose, to leave the EU; their other policies were a grab-bag of populism and authoritarianism which no-one really paid that much attention to. By contrast, it's difficult to know what Reform are for once the pandemic is behind us (as it will be one way or the other). They've positioned themselves as an anti-lockdown party, but what will they be in 5 years' time when the pandemic is long gone? It's not clear to me whether they are libertarian or authoritarian, or a mix of both. In the long term, what big cause they can use to make a name for themselves?

 

[Acfb]

Yes, that's the logical way to go for Reform - essentially a repeat of UKIP's successful strategy. The problem for Reform is that UKIP had a single clear purpose, to leave the EU; their other policies were a grab-bag of populism and authoritarianism which no-one really paid that much attention to. By contrast, it's difficult to know what Reform are for once the pandemic is behind us (as it will be one way or the other). It's not clear to me whether they are libertarian or authoritarian, or a mix of both. In the long term, what big cause they can use to make a name for themselves?

I can't see Reform going anywhere based on their awful performance in the Bexley by election. I think some of the polls putting on them on 7% nationally are a bit of an illusion. I think they probably have a lot of crossover with the views of Tory members and Tory MPs but are not likely to go anywhere with the wider electorate. They will probably sink without trace after they lose their deposit on Thursday.

 

[Yew]

Beware what you ask for.

Not being tortured, nothing is worth the price that is being extracted from me.

 

[nw1]

It's not clear to me whether they are libertarian or authoritarian, or a mix of both. In the long term, what big cause they can use to make a name for themselves?

A mix of both, depending on the context, I suspect. When it comes to being anti-lockdown, they are libertarian, but when it comes to such things as immigration, I suspect they will be very authoritarian indeed.

They don't cut it for me, though Farage is amongst my most despised politicians so perhaps that's no surprise.

 

[big_rig]

Not being tortured, nothing is worth the price that is being extracted from me.

I also find the ‘what if’ about Reform etc so strange. It’s like if you went up to the people who were knocking down the Berlin Wall and said hold up everyone, what will this mean for the bin collection in future, maybe the price of a tram ticket might go up too - perhaps hold back on breaking down this wall, there’s other things to think of beyond re-unifying the country? The last grasp of the pro-lockdown lot I guess, trying to pretend that the Government literally locking you inside actually isn’t a big deal, and that the policies of the party against that on plastic bags or whatever is worth considering instead of, you know, being banned from going outside.

On the subject of the thread, I just wouldn’t vote assuming everything was the same as it is now I think.

 

[35B]

I also find the ‘what if’ about Reform etc so strange. It’s like if you went up to the people who were knocking down the Berlin Wall and said hold up everyone, what will this mean for the bin collection in future, maybe the price of a tram ticket might go up too - perhaps hold back on breaking down this wall, there’s other things to think of beyond re-unifying the country? The last grasp of the pro-lockdown lot I guess, trying to pretend that the Government literally locking you inside actually isn’t a big deal, and that the policies of the party against that on plastic bags or whatever is worth considering instead of, you know, being banned from going outside.

On the subject of the thread, I just wouldn’t vote assuming everything was the same as it is now I think.

Not why I'm against Reform. I wouldn't trust the spivs and chancers running that company to abide by their headline promises if they thought it inconvenient to their agenda.

Their brand of politics is destructive, dangerous, poison - and framed in terms that make it catnip to some. Just as UKIP's politics were - despite the evidence from well before the referendum that their politicians were taking salaries to oppose the EU while doing diddly squat to actually help their constituents.

Their beliefs, like their grannies, are for sale to the highest bidder; their opposition to anti-Covid policies is purely about making themselves look different while they look for a reason to seem relevant now that Brexit is done.

 

[John Luxton]

I can't see Reform going anywhere based on their awful performance in the Bexley by election. I think some of the polls putting on them on 7% nationally are a bit of an illusion. I think they probably have a lot of crossover with the views of Tory members and Tory MPs but are not likely to go anywhere with the wider electorate. They will probably sink without trace after they lose their deposit on Thursday.

Dreadful performance? Really? Those Tories switching to reform certainly reduced the Conservative majority. They Reform did not lose their deposit at Bexley. I think it is wishful thinking on your part.

Their beliefs, like their grannies, are for sale to the highest bidder; their opposition to anti-Covid policies is purely about making themselves look different while they look for a reason to seem relevant now that Brexit is done.

They are offering something the other parties are not offering.

If Stamer had been anti-lockdown I would have switched to Labour despite being a lifelong Tory and would have temporarily suspended my Conservative beliefs. Unfortunately the opposition has not done what they should be doing and that is OPPOSING the Government instead they are agreeing with them. Some opposition! I told the local election candidate that.

 

[greyman42]

If Stamer had been anti-lockdown I would have switched to Labour despite being a lifelong Tory and would have temporarily suspended my Conservative beliefs.

As would I.

The Tories' other policies have removed more liberties from me and others in this country than any government in my lifetime, are planning more, and unlike covid restrictions they are designed to be permanent.

Can you expand on that?

 

[Ex-controller]

Im very much politically homeless now. I used to be quite sympathetic to the SNP and the Scottish Greens but I can’t standing hearing from either party these days. The old adage that they’re all in it for themselves never felt truer - when it’s people you once believed in then it feels so much worse.

 

[35B]

They are offering something the other parties are not offering.

If Stamer had been anti-lockdown I would have switched to Labour despite being a lifelong Tory and would have temporarily suspended my Conservative beliefs. Unfortunately the opposition has not done what they should be doing and that is OPPOSING the Government instead they are agreeing with them. Some opposition! I told the local election candidate that.

That's your prerogative. But you are putting your eggs in one basket, over a single issue. Governments have to deal with multiple issues, and single issue parties dangerously simplify matters.

Constitutionally, I think you'll also find that the Opposition are actually Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. That means that they're not bound to oppose government policy on principle, but to respond to it based on their beliefs as to what is the right policy. On that basis - and for the purposes of this exchange, no other meaning should be inferred - I am absolutely comfortable with the idea that a party that has advocated Plan B measures should then support the implementation of those measures when the government brings them forward. Indeed, I'd have more problem if they did as you suggested and opposed on purely partisan grounds - that would be devoid of any principle, and potentially counter-productive to what they claim to believe in (think back 2 years and the various votes about Brexit, and consider how partisan positioning undermined the ability of Remainers to avoid what they claimed to oppose).

 

[jfollows]

That's your prerogative. But you are putting your eggs in one basket, over a single issue. Governments have to deal with multiple issues, and single issue parties dangerously simplify matters.

Constitutionally, I think you'll also find that the Opposition are actually Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. That means that they're not bound to oppose government policy on principle, but to respond to it based on their beliefs as to what is the right policy. On that basis - and for the purposes of this exchange, no other meaning should be inferred - I am absolutely comfortable with the idea that a party that has advocated Plan B measures should then support the implementation of those measures when the government brings them forward. Indeed, I'd have more problem if they did as you suggested and opposed on purely partisan grounds - that would be devoid of any principle, and potentially counter-productive to what they claim to believe in (think back 2 years and the various votes about Brexit, and consider how partisan positioning undermined the ability of Remainers to avoid what they claimed to oppose).

I agree, I have been watching the House of Commons today and feel that so far it's been a constructive debate, but in particular I am impressed with Wes Streeting and his portrayal of the Labour position. I just feel that for the first time since 2015 Labour is actually opposing constructively, which means - I agree with you - not always disagreeing with the government but instead sometimes seeking to improve the legislation with which it broadly agrees.

 

[NorthKent1989]

A vote for Labour is a vote for more harmful and pointless restrictions, I would appreciate them more if they pointed out how lockdowns left meant vulnerable to unemployment, poverty and abuse but no, just because they want to be seen as the good guys they’ve a jumped into bed with the Tories, looking good is more important to Labour than opposing draconian measures

 

[John Luxton]

A vote for Labour is a vote for more harmful and pointless restrictions, I would appreciate them more if they pointed out how lockdowns left meant vulnerable to unemployment, poverty and abuse but no, just because they want to be seen as the good guys they’ve a jumped into bed with the Tories, looking good is more important to Labour than opposing draconian measures

My feelings exactly

 

[yorksrob]

I accept this isn't always possible (given different party allegiances), but has anyone actually written to their MP if they're pro restriction demanding they vote against them or else they won't get your vote? If for example Labour MPs got enough letters voicing concerns about their stance, maybe they'll change their ways, and/or evaluate the situation better. One man demanding Starmer get out of his pub isn't going to cut it.

I did email my MP last year saying that I believed the restrictions on hospitality were damaging and pointless. Didn't get a reply back.

 

[kristiang85]

That's your prerogative. But you are putting your eggs in one basket, over a single issue. Governments have to deal with multiple issues, and single issue parties dangerously simplify matters.

Constitutionally, I think you'll also find that the Opposition are actually Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. That means that they're not bound to oppose government policy on principle, but to respond to it based on their beliefs as to what is the right policy. On that basis - and for the purposes of this exchange, no other meaning should be inferred - I am absolutely comfortable with the idea that a party that has advocated Plan B measures should then support the implementation of those measures when the government brings them forward. Indeed, I'd have more problem if they did as you suggested and opposed on purely partisan grounds - that would be devoid of any principle, and potentially counter-productive to what they claim to believe in (think back 2 years and the various votes about Brexit, and consider how partisan positioning undermined the ability of Remainers to avoid what they claimed to oppose).

But you miss the point about one issue parties - they will never form a government, but they spook the establishment enough to change their tune. As I said in my earlier post, UKIP was not going to be a serious governing party, but it enabled a large section of the populstion to sufficiently nudge the Tories into commiting to an EU referendum.

Reform are the equivalent of that for those who want the country to move on from COVID now.

 

[py_megapixel]

But a lot of “experts” are also driven by politics - SAGE being a perfect example.
I’m afraid part of living in a democracy is accepting that people will vote for things for (what you consider to be) stupid reasons. The patronising and sneering idea that the population should bow and scrape to so called “experts”

What is the alternative? What you seem to be suggesting is that the opinions of people who have absolutely no idea about the subject they're talking about should be treated with the same weight as people who for have been studying it for years. Yes, some experts are politically motivated, but so are most other members of the public, especially considering some people's propensity to believe anything they are told. At least someone who actually knows what they're talking about won't give up their ideas for some pseudo-scientific nonsense on Facebook; at least, you'd hope not.

We see this all the time in local news sites, especially in the comments section. Someone makes a what they claim is a simple suggestion that, to anyone who has any experience at all with the subject of the article, is utterly unworkable and then there are a load of replies backing them up. The idea that this kind of thing could become the normal way things are decided in the "real" world is quite terrifying.

is exactly what drove Brexit, Trump etc.

Is it? It seems to me that what mostly drove both of those things was stagnation, leading to the general population wanting something fresh to blame for the world's problems, encouraged by a healthy does of manufactured outrage from the tabloids - certainly not what I advocate.

Reform are the equivalent of that for those who want the country to move on from COVID now.

The problem is that they're not a single-issue party, or at least they're not acknowledging so.

 

[MikeWM]

Labour will today even back mandatory vaccination for NHS staff, so even their previous opposition to the same for care home staff has now amounted to zero.

They are totally useless.

And any party that has Wes Streeting as a front-bencher won't be getting my vote. He's odious and has been for years.

 

[quantinghome]

A vote for Labour is a vote for more harmful and pointless restrictions, I would appreciate them more if they pointed out how lockdowns left meant vulnerable to unemployment, poverty and abuse but no, just because they want to be seen as the good guys they’ve a jumped into bed with the Tories, looking good is more important to Labour than opposing draconian measures

But Labour are not proposing any restrictions in excess of those the Tories have proposed. I suspect some lessons from last summer have been quietly learned.