Leeds- getting into and through (by train?) into the future

[BrianW]

Prompted by postings elsewhere. I am not very familiar with Leeds so reliant on you to comment.

The government has left getting to Leeds by or from HS2 (and associate changes)to be 'sorted out. Local 'stakeholders' are charged with considering local transport more broadly- trams etc.

Most folk seem to consider Leeds Station as 'full as a tick' with no obvious 'solution' (or even 'improvement'?)

From Googlemaps I see Leeds as having a lot of big roads with big junctions and surface car parks- I could be wrong.

Therefore, I'm wondering about a Wuppertal-type line above the River Aire and various of these huge roads. Could a 'network' of 'overground'/metro lines be conceived ? Would it be cheaper/ easier than 'tube lines'?

Or something like Merseyrail? Airerail? Air-rail?

 

[MattRat]

In regards to HS2, the current plan according to the IRP, is what I like to call spin the train in Manchester, where the train will reverse at Piccadilly before going onto Leeds. I and many others have already talked about how stupid this is, and this style of operation is already being phased out in Europe becuase of it's downsides.

As for 'metro' services, there was the Leeds 'Supertram' idea years ago, which probably mainly took inspiration from Manchester Metrolink, and I think if any type of metro does end up happening in Leeds, that is the design that would locally be accepted.

 

[tomuk]

In regards to HS2, the current plan according to the IRP, is what I like to call spin the train in Manchester, where the train will reverse at Piccadilly before going onto Leeds. I and many others have already talked about how stupid this is, and this style of operation is already being phased out in Europe becuase of it's downsides.

That's not entirely accurate. It is suggested in the plan that Birmingham to Leeds and the North East flows are served by HS2/NPR services via Manchester. Leeds to London flows would be using an upgraded East Coast Main Line.

 

[MattRat]

That's not entirely accurate. It is suggested in the plan that Birmingham to Leeds and the North East flows are served by HS2/NPR services via Manchester. Leeds to London flows would be using an upgraded East Coast Main Line.

OP asked about HS2, not the ECML. Unless of course you are suggesting HS2 will run on the ECML?

 

[tomuk]

OP asked about HS2, not the ECML. Unless of course you are suggesting HS2 will run on the ECML?

Well the services to Leeds, York and Newcastle that were planned to use HS2 will instead be on the ECML. Leeds won't be served by HS2 at all. NPR services from Newcastle/York and Leeds to Manchester will be extended to Birmingham.

 

[Bigman]

The best thing they could do is build the HS2 station as planned. At least everything that currently comes in via Woodlesford can use it until they eventually get HS2 sorted in decades to come.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As much as I like the idea of a Loiner Schwebebahn, the River Aire skirts the edge of the city centre rather than going through the heart of it. There's also a large obstruction built over the river, also known as the Railway Station!

 

[Grumpy]

Most folk seem to consider Leeds Station as 'full as a tick'

Indeed that seems to be the party line.
An alternative view is it's madness. Lots of short trains, no doubt financial basket cases, being run and cluttering the place up. No need to run any additional trains for decades-simply add a few more carriages to the existing.
If 0800-0900 is approximately the morning peak then platforms 17,13,10,0, 7 and 14 manage to deal with 8 arrivals between them.
That figure includes zero on platform zero which has been provided recently at a cost of countless millions

 

[30907]

No need to run any additional trains for decades-simply add a few more carriages to the existing.

Agree - 3-4 cars is short by London standards and there are occasional 2-car workings still. But platform lengths are an issue in places.

That figure includes zero on platform zero which has been provided recently at a cost of countless millions

In order to run 6-car trains vice 4. 0 was definitely in use yesterday afternoon.

Anyway, Half Speed Poorhouse Rail will probably run longer trains, so that's not desperately relevant.

As much as I like the idea of a Loiner Schwebebahn, the River Aire skirts the edge of the city centre rather than going through the heart of it. There's also a large obstruction built over the river, also known as the Railway Station!

And the urban motorway has similar problems. At least trams might get into the city centre.

 

[David Bullock]

Not having HS2 or NPR properly really messes up a lot of the leeds metro plans for a few reasons.

1) no released capacity towards Dewsbury/Huddersfield, Wakefield and Garforth/York. So it would be impossible to have metro style frequencies.

2) the additional platforms that were part of the plan would have freed up the existing platforms in leeds, one of which is almost aways occupied by an LNER train turning around for half an hour.

Building a tram system on leeds’ quite large roads would be good but for as long as those routes out to York Huddersfield and Wakefield are being used by express train the opportunity to develop a proper transit system across west Yorks is limited.

 

[Spaceflower]

Trolley buses were mooted for a while on the University corridor to the north west through Headingley. I remain bemused and unconvinced.

Leeds is quite hilly to the west and very congested but is blessed with rail routes here. The roads are badly congested during the peaks.

There's probably little scope for increasing through rail paths to the east unless utilising routes via Woodlesford/Castleford due to the constrained nature of the line here unless yopu put vast sums into some kind of elevated alignment.

Leeds does have some elevated redundant viaducts in its south west central area.. Utilising them has received some attention - mostly focussing on urban greenways.

My own experience was that travel to the CBD is fine but cross city travel is really problematic.

 

[Ken H]

Trolley buses were mooted for a while on the University corridor to the north west through Headingley. I remain bemused and unconvinced.

Leeds is quite hilly to the west and very congested but is blessed with rail routes here. The roads are badly congested during the peaks.

There's probably little scope for increasing through rail paths to the east unless utilising routes via Woodlesford/Castleford due to the constrained nature of the line here unless yopu put vast sums into some kind of elevated alignment.

Leeds does have some elevated redundant viaducts in its south west central area.. Utilising them has received some attention - mostly focussing on urban greenways.

My own experience was that travel to the CBD is fine but cross city travel is really problematic.

.. and the ring road is rubbish. Lots of roundabouts so you spend loads of time queuing. So people rat-run. And Seacroft - moortown is single carriageway so very slow.
Very few of the cross city buses remain. OK there is the 94. But where are the 45 and 38 that were busy in the 60's? And all the inner circulars (57-64)

 

[Spaceflower]

Don't talk to me about that road, mate . Had to use it in most of it's entirety at some point in time. Horsforth-Pudsey is single and bad too.

The 9 used to traverse the ring road but was so unreliable the started chopping it but it still ran hourly between Horsforth and Pudsey last time I used it.
The 508 was okay sometimes but when it was late, it was late. It travelled out of Leeds but started cutting across city from Kirkstall. The gets pretty chewed up at times.
The 91 (LOL) route was more of an inner circular that came from the east somewhere iirc via the north of the city through Chapel Allerton, Headingley, Kirkstall and then up Bramley and out west. The only way you could seriously use that was to walk the route and hope it'd turn up at some point to save your legs a bit. They did have realtime info screens but I wasn't checking phone apps back then like I do now.

Cycling was horrific on these routes as you had significant climbs on both legs (out and back). I also used to cheat and go into Leeds and back out on the train. The long way round and took ages but would often beat the bus. The cross city buses proper that run through the city centre must surely be still going? On the high frequency routes they were okay.

My biggest bug bears from what I remember (apart from above - the LORR in particular), was a lack of cross city rail routes and the leg work/stress required changing trains or, worse, mode in Leeds city centre. But then I've always had alternative travel habits....

I think the 45 and 38 are still stuck in traffic.

 

[Ken H]

Don't talk to me about that road, mate .

Is the 9 still going? I can remember regularly waiting hours for that and the 508 was bad too at times. Cycling meant you took on every damn moor in the Pennines given Leeds geography. Again, CBD is easy. If you're not on the canal then its typically downhill oneway uphill back or you could even cheat and use the train. But cycling across city, nah.

I think the 45 and 38 are still stuck in traffic.

9 is still going. But has a few detours away from the ring road. Like one to Moortown Corner.

Correction to above . Its not the 94, its the 91. The old 44.

 

[Bigman]

The 86 still runs from Rodley to Middleton via Bramley, Armley, Holbeck and Beeston. 38 is sorely missed on West Leeds and would really be useful if it was brought back once the White Rose railway station is opened.

 

[Spaceflower]

Did the 38 serve Armley? I'm sure there was some kind of circular that I used to get to the fishing tackle shop there...

 

[Bigman]

Did the 38 serve Armley? I'm sure there was some kind of circular that I used to get to the fishing tackle shop there...

The 38 came up from Kirkstall up Cockshott Lane, then down Armley Road and up Armley Ridge Road, then along Wortley Road and left onto Whingate and through Whingate Junction and off to Lower Wortley, so it very much served Armley. The fishing tackle shop was run by Mr Shaw. I was in the same class as his daughter at school.

 

[Spaceflower]

Yes, that's the one

Was there a 5?

 

[plarailfan]

It's been a shambles how Leeds has been left behind since the "Supertram" idea fell by the wayside back in the 1990's.
The best thing they could do now, in the short term, is re-open the viaduct line line out of Leeds, that went through Gildersome tunnel. They could / should build a park and ride station behind the cinema, to connect with the M62 and M621 motorway junction.
Passengers could be whisked by train into leeds city centre in 5-6 mins, or so.
Gildersome tunnel was partly filled in with colliery waste, so all that would have to be removed. It would probably cost a few £ billion for the project and the other scheme they could do to get started, is the Leeds Bradford airport rail link that they keep talking about.

 

[Spaceflower]

There's two stopping trains going east out of Leeds - I wonder if these could be increased/alternated with routes to the west to provide more cross city options. Electrification is coming as I understand it and there's alot going on to the east of the city development wise. As anyone who has ever visited Leeds knows, the city station is like a wall of people during the peaks so cutting the number of people having to change might bring some benefits....?

 

[Ken H]

The 38 came up from Kirkstall up Cockshott Lane, then down Armley Road and up Armley Ridge Road, then along Wortley Road and left onto Whingate and through Whingate Junction and off to Lower Wortley, so it very much served Armley. The fishing tackle shop was run by Mr Shaw. I was in the same class as his daughter at school.

I think we are talking different eras. In the 60's there was the 44 from Stanningley to Halton Moor via Kirkstall, Headilgley, Chapel Allerton and harehills. Pretty much the current 91
There was the 45. The 'little bus' Wortley - Kirkstall - Headingley, Meanwood, Stonegate Road/King Lane roundabout, harehills, then later to Seacroft Town Centre, then to Stanks.
The 38 started at Moortown Corner, through Geldhow to Oakwood, then through Gipton to York Road. Then Halton to Whitkirk.

You can see route maps and timetables for Leeds on TimetableWorld(dot)com. Images only - nothing to quote.

 

[bluenoxid]

There are no easy low hanging fruit for Leeds that don’t involve the c-word.

Compromise

Any major interventions will have little impact on other corridors

I wouldn’t do anything at Gildersome, easier to put several decks on a bit of land by Elland Road.

Leeds Bradford Airport is not worth the investment beyond the currently proposed railway station. It’s just not big enough.

 

[tbtc]

Instead of building more at the city centre station (which is pretty constrained - look at how expensive it is to put one additional platform into a space occupied by a car park - it'd be a lot more expensive to build over the river etc) you could free up a lot of platform space by either extending trains through to Neville Hill or a terminus at Thorpe Park (as was planned) - there are six through platforms so even if you write off one as being clogged up by London terminators and one spare then the other four through platforms ought to be able to allow most of the (non-Kirkstall) services to become through trains

Trams will always get suggested but it'll be hard. Tyneside/ Manchester/ Wolverhampton/ Croydon were able to build theirs mainly by either directly converting heavy rail services or by using abandoned rail alignments - Sheffield has struggled comparatively because (other than the Meadowhall line) our trams are stuck in road traffic - I think that any Leeds line would be similarly at the mercy of congestion (e.g. Headingley is an obvious corridor to try to justify light rail to soak up large passenger volumes but how do you run something that isn't going to get stuck in the same A65 congestion?

9 is still going. But has a few detours away from the ring road. Like one to Moortown Corner

The problem with the geography of Leeds is that you can either run a relatively "fast" service around the ring road (depending on traffic/roundabouts, of course!) or you can try to link various places together but it's hard to do both.

Some cities have a traditional kind of ring road that takes you through various traditional suburban centres (or where such post-war things have been built next to the ring road) - for example I grew up with the Outer Circle in Edinburgh which ran through the heart of Leith/ Portobello as well as serving the modern shopping centres at Cameron Toll/ Wester Hailes without much of a diversion

Leeds though... the 8/9 were able to serve the modern shopping centres at Seacroft and White Rose with only a minor time penalty, but it's more of a diversion to serve Horsforth/ Moor Allerton/ Garforth/ Pudsey and a lot further (from the ring road) to Armley/ Headingley/ Hunslet etc, plus a lot of fairly empty space between Crossgates and Middleton (the south east of Leeds is the flood plain, so there's not many people living in the land between the A64 and M1).

Dundee/ Glasgow/ Manchester/ Sheffield etc had long running "outer circles" that had the advantage of serving at least one major hospital, but that's not the case in Leeds (the Infirmary is in the city centre and Jimmys is more "Inner City" than "outer circular"

So is a ring road there to properly link the suburban centres together or to link ring road junctions together for people to use as a connection between different radial routes (e.g. the A61 to the A65)?

When I lived in Leeds (twentyish years ago) there were a lot more "radial" routes - e.g. the half hourly 81/82 from Pudsey to Holt Park - but such secondary routes have dwindled away as they have in many First operated "networks" in that time period

 

[Spaceflower]

When I lived in Leeds (twentyish years ago) there were a lot more "radial" routes - e.g. the half hourly 81/82 from Pudsey to Holt Park - but such secondary routes have dwindled away as they have in many First operated "networks" in that time period

There's no going fast round the ring road tbtc. That service hit EVERY radial route out of Leeds. It aint fun.

This will clarify the definition of radial;

Radial route - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I got into Chris Rea a bit when I lived in Leeds.

This is adding alot to the thread....

 

[billio]

The East Leeds Orbital Road is a new section of the ring road being constructed from the M1 at Thorpe Park to Red Hall, roughly at the north end of Roundhay Park. This eliminates a congested area around Seacroft and Cross Gates.

Being adjacent to the M1, a new station with a large car park at Thorpe Park would make a very useful park and ride station on the east of Leeds if there was a regular service of trains to parts of West Yorkshire via Leeds.

 

[Bigman]

The East Leeds Orbital Road is a new section of the ring road being constructed from the M1 at Thorpe Park to Red Hall, roughly at the north end of Roundhay Park. This eliminates a congested area around Seacroft and Cross Gates.

Being adjacent to the M1, a new station with a large car park at Thorpe Park would make a very useful park and ride station on the east of Leeds if there was a regular service of trains to parts of West Yorkshire via Leeds.

Therein lies the problem. The only local stoppers on that line go to Bradford and Halifax. Nothing up the Aire or Wharfe Valleys, or to Harrogate, Huddersfield, Wakefield or Castleford etc.

 

[30907]

Therein lies the problem. The only local stoppers on that line go to Bradford and Halifax. Nothing up the Aire or Wharfe Valleys, or to Harrogate, Huddersfield, Wakefield or Castleford etc.

Of those, people will just drive past a Thorpe Park P+R to Wakefield and Castleford, and probably to Harrogate too; Airedale and Wharfedale are more residential than centres of employment and in any case best left separate.
The Huddersfield route is the one that has most potential and could be served by extending the stoppers, which would need infrastructure work (Metro has long wanted 4tph to Micklefield), or by calls on TPE.
However, I suspect the vast majority of users would simply want Leeds City Centre.

 

[Neptune]

Therein lies the problem. The only local stoppers on that line go to Bradford and Halifax. Nothing up the Aire or Wharfe Valleys, or to Harrogate, Huddersfield, Wakefield or Castleford etc.

There’s only 1 stopper which crosses Leeds which is the Hull to Halifax. The York - Leeds stopper could in theory cross Leeds but to where? Someone will miss out. There’s no room for any other services to stop.

You certainly don’t want diesels going through on a stopper to Skipton, Ilkley or Doncaster. Harrogate is best left self contained to prevent services clogging up the west end.

After TRU works are done in a few years would it be an idea to link up the hourly York - Leeds stopper with the hourly Leeds - Huddersfield stopper using bi-modes? Thereby linking Thorpe Park with White Rose into the bargain.

At least Leeds has only 1 city centre station for connections and almost all routes are a minimum of hourly minimising connecting times.

 

[snowball]

The East Leeds Orbital Road is a new section of the ring road being constructed from the M1 at Thorpe Park to Red Hall, roughly at the north end of Roundhay Park. This eliminates a congested area around Seacroft and Cross Gates.

Though still with all its junctions flat, and with a couple of miles of single carriageway remaining unbypassed between the new road and the approach to the A61 junction.

 

[Ken H]

Though still with all its junctions flat, and with a couple of miles of single carriageway remaining unbypassed between the new road and the approach to the A61 junction.

Flat junctions are cheap. But they will spend millions trying to improve them over the next 20 years. instead of doing it properly now.