Unfortunately, you would have purchased that itinerary subject to a condition in that contract that gives the operator the right to vary one of the elements of that contract.
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Updated National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) - Effective from 6th February 2022
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Goldfish62
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What is that condition?
TheManOnThe172
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Presuming that the new NRCoT did come in to operation on Sunday (6 Feb) - has anybody worked out where one finds the Published Timetable of the Day?
Bletchleyite
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It is the timetable which is available in the planners at 2200 on the day before.
Haywain
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Which, for the most part, will be no different to the timetable that people will have expected to see.
TheManOnThe172
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Clearly, this will be true at the stroke of 10pm the night before travel. But as I understand it, the timetable can be further updated after that point. So if I look at (say) RTT on the day of travel, I won't know whether the timing I see was that applying at 2200 the day before travel (the "Published Timetable of the Day" timing, which will affect Delay Repay calculations) or whether it is showing the timing after a change made an hour later (and so not affecting Delay Repay calculations).
Someone surely has to create a snapshot of the timetable as it was at 2200 the night before - at least for those handling Delay Repay calculations. And if such a snapshot exists, and it goes under the name of "Published Timetable of the Day", wouldn't we expect it to be made public ("published" indeed) so that the customer can verify that their repayment is correct?
Haywain
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Happily, that's not necessary. There's a useful website - http://timetablehistory.com/ - that will show when a train has been removed from the timetable or the schedule altered.
TheManOnThe172
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Useful site - thanks. But it doesn't seem to give time of removal from timetable. And if a train were retimed twice, once at 2130 and again at 2230 would it show the full history, or just the latest change?
Surely if TOCs are to rely on the "Published Timetable of the Day" as a reference point, they will need to publish it themselves - in an accessible, user-friendly form - rather than relying on users accessing a third-party site for which the w3 validator gives up at 1000 errors?
Surely if TOCs are to rely on the "Published Timetable of the Day" as a reference point, they will need to publish it themselves - in an accessible, user-friendly form - rather than relying on users accessing a third-party site for which the w3 validator gives up at 1000 errors?
The site in question is intended to help customers and retailers understand what's actually been done behind the scenes. It's not intended to form part of the customer's contract and may well not be suitable for that purpose. It could go down without warning or disappear at any time, though these aren't likely.
It can be, and it's unusual, but not unheard of.
I think that my view is that this doesn't actually exist. The term in the contract is little more than cakeism.
For anyone who hasn't come across the term before, it means to wish to have the benefit of two good things which are mutually exclusive. The industry would like to benefit from the freedom not to pay compensation to customers who they're letting down, and also they would like the freedom to do so without providing reasonable notice (at the very least this should be 14 days as with the airlines) to the public, often putting out timetables the day before.
Most of the travelling public would be happy to accept that rescheduling might be imposed upon them without compensation rights, with at least a couple of weeks' notice. Most of the public would also be happy to last minute accept delays and cancellations if they're genuinely unavoidable, with compensation whete these are significant. But not both.
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If a delay repay claim was declined because a relevant train wasn't shown in the 'Published Timetable of the Day' despite having been shown previously, it would seem perfectly reasonable to request evidence of that fact. How would this be provided?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In practice I suspect it won't be done to that level, and if one train was removed the previous day you'll still get paid out, however if there's major disruption and a warning is put out the day before including a revised timetable (e.g. for weather related service reductions) then that won't.
That is, if it's refused it's likely to be obvious why.
It's much more likely that if a service is marked as planned cancelled it will be excluded from the compensation rights regardless of when then change was made, even if it was after 2200.
In a recent thread about a discrepancy between realtimetrains.co.uk and nationalrail.co.uk (regarding the cancellation of trains a mere 3 days into the future), a claim was made that
so Train Operating Companies should not only have to prove that the train was cancelled before 22:00, but also that the National Rail Enquiries journey planner reflected this fact before 22:00.
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TheManOnThe172
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I thought I might ask National Rail where to find the Published Timetable of the Day (PTD). The new NRCot (now on their website) does say that " ... changes will be published no later than 22:00 the day before travel and available at www.nationalrail.co.uk".. But there is no sign of anything on the site - not even a mention in the Site Index. So I thought I would try contacting National Rail.
It seems to be impossible to give feedback to National Rail. Look for instructions on how to contact them, and you are offered links to "other ways you may be able to find the help you need". The only link that seems appropriate is to the Rail Ombudsman, which, when you try to start a complaint, asks whether you have complained to National Rail, and refuses to proceed if you haven't. Because National Rail have made complaining impossible, you can't even ask the Ombusdman to take action to get National Rail to allow you to make a complaint. They appear completely bombproof. Kafka would have been proud!
It seems to be impossible to give feedback to National Rail. Look for instructions on how to contact them, and you are offered links to "other ways you may be able to find the help you need". The only link that seems appropriate is to the Rail Ombudsman, which, when you try to start a complaint, asks whether you have complained to National Rail, and refuses to proceed if you haven't. Because National Rail have made complaining impossible, you can't even ask the Ombusdman to take action to get National Rail to allow you to make a complaint. They appear completely bombproof. Kafka would have been proud!
The condition about the Published Timetable of the Day.
Fawkes Cat
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It's not quite that dreadful: try https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Contact-Us.aspx
But yes, it could be clearer. To get to the above, I had to
- click on 'Help and Support' from any page on the website
- on the dropdown menu, select 'Contact Us' under 'When things go wrong'
- this takes you to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/contact.aspx (note the three character difference in name from the address I've quoted above): this page provides the apparently impossible loop that @TheManOnThe172 faced. But if you
- click on the yellow 'Find out more' bar under 'National Rail Enquiries', that takes you to the 'proper' contact us page - with addresses, phone numbers, a web contact page - in fact more or less everything you could hope for.
But it's not made easy...
TheManOnThe172
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Thanks.
Goodness me, what a mess they've left that in. I would have probably been defeated by that myself.
It does amuse me how some people insist on defending the indefensible.
If, for the most part, timetables don't change up until 22:00 the night before, why did the DfT feel the need to include specific reference to such a situation in the new NRCoT? And surely TOCs would be happy to pay compensation on the "rare" occasions it does happen?
Oh, right, it's just another example of double standards on the railway. Isn't it funny how the new conditions omitted to give passengers the right to a fee-free refund up until 22:00 the night before, if they change their mind.
It really is an extraordinary situation when you have better certainty over your itinerary when travelling with Ryanair than on the railway...
Goldfish62
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It's not exactly an unusual trait on this forum.
50p says they don't understand the question and point you to the usual journey planner. Partially because I doubt the staff have sufficient training to understand the question but also because I don't think it exists and my thought's align with @Starmill .
I’ll be very interested to see how the new and old systems deal with the situation I encountered yesterday while returning from Birkenhead to Leeds. My itinerary as purchased on Wednesday evening was as follows:
Birkenhead North to Leeds on 6 Feb 2022
Checking Liverpool departures on Saturday night, I could see that the 1251 Liverpool to Norwich had been excised from the timetable, so I had to take the 1204 Birkenhead North to Liverpool and the 1230 Liverpool-Wilmslow to make my connection. My main concern was having a seat from Manchester to Leeds as I’ve stood three times and that’s three times too many.
The 1230 was subsequently terminated at Oxford Road for want of a driver, however I still made the connection at Piccadilly on the following train. I have a delay repay claim in as to my mind my stay in Birkenhead was cut short by leaving early and I was inconvenienced by my train being terminated short, but I’m fully expecting to have it rejected at the first time of asking!
Birkenhead North to Leeds on 6 Feb 2022
| Departs: | Birkenhead North at 12:19 |
| Train Operator: | Merseyrail |
| Arrives: | Liverpool Lime St at 12:33 |
| Departs: | Liverpool Lime St at 12:51 |
| Train Operator: | East Midlands Railway |
| Arrives: | Manchester Piccadilly at 13:42 |
| Departs: | Manchester Piccadilly at 14:10 |
| Train Operator: | TransPennine Express |
| Arrives: | Leeds at 15:10 |
Checking Liverpool departures on Saturday night, I could see that the 1251 Liverpool to Norwich had been excised from the timetable, so I had to take the 1204 Birkenhead North to Liverpool and the 1230 Liverpool-Wilmslow to make my connection. My main concern was having a seat from Manchester to Leeds as I’ve stood three times and that’s three times too many.
The 1230 was subsequently terminated at Oxford Road for want of a driver, however I still made the connection at Piccadilly on the following train. I have a delay repay claim in as to my mind my stay in Birkenhead was cut short by leaving early and I was inconvenienced by my train being terminated short, but I’m fully expecting to have it rejected at the first time of asking!
Under the new conditions, the industry's position is clear. They claim they can refuse to pay any compensation, regardless of whether you left earlier to arrive on time, or left on time and arrived late.
The position under the old conditions, which apply to your booking as it was made before the new conditions entered into force, is a little more favourable. If you leave on time and arrive at least 1 hour late, you are entitled to compensation of at least 50% of the relevant portion of your ticket(s).
However, then as now, there is nothing which sets out the industry's position of what compensation is payable (if any) if you leave early so as to arrive on time.
Under either set of conditions, in order to be compensated for having to leave early so as to arrive on time, you will have to rely on your implied contractual and/or explicit consumer rights. And any such claim is highly likely to meet refusal if you are honest about what trains you took.
Haywain
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I take exception to that. Whilst I don’t like the wording chosen, or the implications, it will still be an unusual occurrence for timetables to be altered to any significant degree at short notice. Train operators have to deal with track access, stock diagrams and staff diagrams that take a lot of work and have no desire to be making unnecessary changes.
The difficulty lies in how one defines "unusual". The chance that it could happen on any single booking is low. However, if you're someone who always books more than one day in advance and uses the railway frequently, perhaps 2 - 3 times a month, over the course of a year it's very unlikely that you won't have a single train retimed or withdrawn after you've already booked. Now of course, among those a proportion won't be inconvenienced by the change, and so it's only a portion of the journeys where it is actually causing inconvenience which might be worthy of a compensation claim. The fact that a forum member booked last Wednesday for a perfectly ordinary and common journey between Merseyside and Leeds, and still had their train withdrawn by yesterday demonstrates this point with aplomb.
Yes, it's reasonable to publish amended timetables where resources are so badly stressed that there's just no hope of running the full service, day in day out. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But this needs to be done in good time, and in any case by no later than 14 days in advance. As with airlines. If that's impossible, that's deeply regrettable, but compensation should then in my view apply.
Oh, I wasn't referring to you specifically. I do apologise if you were offended.
So unusual that it's happened countless times in the last 2 years, and is still happening on a daily basis across the country...
And I come back to my earlier point - if it is so unusual, then why did the DfT feel the need to add a specific clause purporting to limit passengers' rights for when (not if) it happens?
There is no material change to track access contracts or rights as a result of very short notice alterations.
But as you say, there is a huge amount of work which goes into such alterations - nevertheless, the DfT has seen fit to order TOCs to do so on numerous occasions throughout the pandemic. With the extraordinary degree of micromanagement the Department now exerts over the daily running of the railway, these kinds of practices aren't going anywhere.
And so again, I revisit my original argument. It is very undesirable for all involved, but that doesn't stop it from being a daily feature of the today's railway. It represents poor customer service, and the very least that passengers deserve is compensation when changes are made.
You're missing an important qualification there. The prohibition actually applies to "A term which has the object or effect of enabling the trader to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the goods, digital content or services to be provided" (Schedule 2 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Part 1, Paragraph 13; my emphasis).
As long as there is a valid reason, the alteration does not come within the prohibition.
What will be a valid reason will depend on the circumstances.
They’d say it was the timetable. It would be your word against theirs. You’d not be paid.
Absolutely. The 2200 will be nonsense. They’ll reject based on ‘on the day’ cancellations too, as the frequently do already.
Because it’s not them calling the shots. The operators make up the rules and the DfT make them official.
I agree it is unusual as a rule. The last few months have been very different and out of the ordinary. But it raises the questions others have mentioned already.
IF it’s unusual and not a problem why have they done it?
Is this the start of something else? They have been lying about this rule for a couple of years now and the Regulators have made it official. What is next? We still see operator rejecting delay repay on splits. We see them leaving people stranded, is this next ?
markymark2000
On Moderation
Some things that I noticed in the changes which haven't been mentioned yet are the following
It also means that it should stop any of the issues with staff who grumble saying that people should book ahead because the policy is now that 'staff will provide assistance when it hasn't been booked', not 'staff will try to'
The second thing of note is new text in 27.4
This all said, it will really help TFW because when they do post things in advance, it's often the weekend timetable when pre planned works are on and then on the Thursday prior, completely changing it to include longer Rail Reps. Like if it works out to be something on the Cambrian which permits Aber-Mach trains to run and then buses towards Shrewsbury, they will often bus Aber - Mach last minute because I think it must be easier and cheaper than sorting a crew and unit.
My overall opinions on the changes to published timetable on the day thing is that it is unreasonable to expect travellers to check at 10pm on their train for the morning. Some TOCs could even exploit this like Thameslink who travel 24 hours per day, why can't they remove their 1am-5am trains at 21:59 and leave anyone who would travel, sat on the platforms. It's ok and no one is liable for any compensation as long as it was on the system by 22:00.
What would be reasonable would be to say 00:01 6 days prior to travel. Between then and 22:00 on the day of travel, you will only be liable for compensation if your journey is changed by more than 30 minutes. This then gives people a small bit of notice for changes and/or certainty for their planned journey but also gives leeway for some smaller changes if they become needed for whatever reason. 30 minutes gives time for some changes to take place and isn't an unreasonable amount of time to be changed journey times. Much more can be detrimental to someone and make a huge difference.
There is certainly a need to change the system from 'when the booking was made' because rail replacement isn't always in place that far in advance. It should be but isn't always. We need something to stop that side of things and passengers should be reasonably expected to check their journey in advance but to state only a few hours in advance is appalling. Essentially what the railways is saying is do not buy tickets in advance, only buy on the day because only then will we guarantee you getting to your destination.
This reduces the recommended assistance booking time from 24 hours to 6 hours until 31st March 2022 and down again to 2 hours from April 2022. What changes on the 1st April 2022 which means the recommendation drops further?
It also means that it should stop any of the issues with staff who grumble saying that people should book ahead because the policy is now that 'staff will provide assistance when it hasn't been booked', not 'staff will try to'
The second thing of note is new text in 27.4
Does this mean that it will essentially force TOCs to start posting bus timetables online when journeys are cancelled before 22:00 the day before, else they become liable for delay repay? That is an interesting one because some TOCs (cough TFW cough) dislike posting RRB times in advance. They pre-cancel services and put them on journey check as cancelled with a little note 'rail replacement buses will be in operation' but no times for these and as we all know, buses replacing 'cancelled' trains do not show up in journey planners, only buses which are specifically in the system show up. This means that to avoid delay repay, they would have to post the bus to the schedule before 22:00.
This all said, it will really help TFW because when they do post things in advance, it's often the weekend timetable when pre planned works are on and then on the Thursday prior, completely changing it to include longer Rail Reps. Like if it works out to be something on the Cambrian which permits Aber-Mach trains to run and then buses towards Shrewsbury, they will often bus Aber - Mach last minute because I think it must be easier and cheaper than sorting a crew and unit.
My overall opinions on the changes to published timetable on the day thing is that it is unreasonable to expect travellers to check at 10pm on their train for the morning. Some TOCs could even exploit this like Thameslink who travel 24 hours per day, why can't they remove their 1am-5am trains at 21:59 and leave anyone who would travel, sat on the platforms. It's ok and no one is liable for any compensation as long as it was on the system by 22:00.
What would be reasonable would be to say 00:01 6 days prior to travel. Between then and 22:00 on the day of travel, you will only be liable for compensation if your journey is changed by more than 30 minutes. This then gives people a small bit of notice for changes and/or certainty for their planned journey but also gives leeway for some smaller changes if they become needed for whatever reason. 30 minutes gives time for some changes to take place and isn't an unreasonable amount of time to be changed journey times. Much more can be detrimental to someone and make a huge difference.
There is certainly a need to change the system from 'when the booking was made' because rail replacement isn't always in place that far in advance. It should be but isn't always. We need something to stop that side of things and passengers should be reasonably expected to check their journey in advance but to state only a few hours in advance is appalling. Essentially what the railways is saying is do not buy tickets in advance, only buy on the day because only then will we guarantee you getting to your destination.
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