A couple of years ago, Ireland were after new units (with 170s/175s and 185s all being suggested as possibilities)... but then the Lager Lurgy struck, so I don't know if they still need the capacity boost. If they do, the 222s could be an option if no work is found for them here, though the 125mph wouldn't be needed. Obviously they'd need new bogies and wheelsets, but IE aren't inexperienced in that department.
That option was turned down well before the pandemic in favour of 41 intermediate cars for ICRs.
Yes, I remember this well. Voyagers weren't allowed to pass Dawlish at high tide (if I remember correctly), so therefore I doubt that GWR would want them, since their routes include the Dawlish/Dawlish Warren stretch. So it's more likely that the 222s would go elsewhere.
...and when it has been mentioned before, the idea of them going to Chiltern has been discounted as a) there isn't a suitable depot and b) the 222s are overkill for the route.
Seeing them go for scrap or sit in storage will be a hard pill to swallow for those who have to cram into the chronically overcrowded 4 or 5 car XC Voyagers that in many cases provide the only direct rail connection between some of the country's largest settlements.
And 68+Mk3 sets aren't overkill? I understand the depot argument somewhat but could 220s/221s not still be maintained at Central Rivers and run via Tamworth to Tysley and carry on south/reverse into Birmingham?
Yes, but by all accounts their days are numbered. They were available at a time when capacity was needed but appear to be an expensive luxury.
Does Central Rivers have capacity for 222s on Chiltern? It is a lot of dead running to the Chiltern Line and back at a time when the railway is trying to reduce costs.
Methinks that you haven't yet grasped just how much the sticky fingers of HMT will be thrust into every pie. DfT are only one decision maker now.
Says who?
The government cannot wage war on the railway passenger because they are already waging a war on the motorist. Is this turning into a war on the traveller in general? It seems there is nothing the government is willing to support, only to disincentivise.
How are they waging war on the motorist? They have cut fuel duty, handed out grants for people to buy electric cars, continued with "smart motorway" projects despite cancelling rail upgrades etc.
Yeah around half the voyager services are running doubled at the moment (e.g. today, 22 out of 39 crosscountry services through Sheffield are single voyagers, and that's with 2 HST sets out) - so either there are loads sitting around or there aren't enough. Having the 20 avanti 221s would be good to double up all remaining services, but if crosscountry wanted to reinstate the newcastle - southampton and manchester - bristol services the 222s would be needed to allow doubling up of most services - the capacity is needed - they were very busy before and numbers on crosscountry have recovered well due to leisure travel.
I wouldn't mind the old timetable (including the Newcastle-Reading (I don't think many actually went to Southampton) and Manchester-Bristol) with a mixture of doubles and singles, preferably 5-cars on their own and doubles made of 4-cars to even it out a bit.
Were they? I have always assumed that XC can never make a profit* as it doesn't have the London flows with the sort of passengers who are insensitive to price and will pay whatever they are asked for a peak ticket because it's all on expenses.
Their fares are not that cheap and the trains are absolutely packed, even with the current sub-standard service. If they aren't making a profit I think some very serious questions need to be asked about why.
So I've found this document which claims that Arriva XC has paid a franchise premium since 2011/2012 - before that it was receiving a subsidy. They have received "revenue support" some years - can't say for certain what that is since they still paid a franchise premium in those years - seems a little odd to receive money in those years but then pay it back as franchise premium.
There's nothing quite like a money pit as leasing two fleets of trains for the same workings at the same time, which is what they'd be doing if they took 22x units now. The HST fleet is on long term lease - there is a Section 54 agreement in place that guarantees the lease until the end of the decade.
Do you know a good accountant who can make the financials work out as well while you're at it, for what is another stop gap on its way out at best?
I'm not sure Central Rivers has the capacity for all the 222s, even for XC. With Derby Etches Park going over to 810s, either the whole fleet will have to be stored or split up, surely? Any future host would have to be making arrangements for them today, or very very soon.
I would have said that the meridien Fleetwood have another 20 years in the least if well looked after
I have always thought that the perfect option.
Sure, but that's only part of the picture. Have a look at the data from ORR here: https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/stati...-franchised-passenger-operator-up-to-2018-19/
| Net franchise payment Revenue support or share PTE grants Network grant [e] Total subsidy or premium | -41.6 -7.4 0.0 255.6 206.6 |
underfloor engines were specifically excluded in the ITT for the I7C rolling stock. Transport Scotland could always change their minds though. However maintenance provision would be a major issue, as the 222 fleet is maintained at Central Rivers, which isn't exactly on Scotland's doorstep. Depots can be built, staff can be sourced/trained, but it's a major and expensive faff for yet another interim period until the wires go up. Rolling stock for electric services will have similar maintenance requirements but at least that will be the long term final solution.
