Rail strikes discussion

[43066]

Every time I see a railway worker now, I'll be wondering "does he/she also think it acceptable to label some colleagues as 'parasites' "

This is rather silly. One of my guard colleagues asked to see someone’s ticket the other week and they responded by spitting in her face. Should we assume all passengers think that’s acceptable, then? Of course not.

The vast majority of people aren't like this. Most train crew mess rooms are a friendly, helpful (if a bit moany!) place to be. Many are moderates and I think the reasons they have decided to strike are fair and reasonable, yet I can also see how the company having contingency plans to provide their raison d'etre (running trains) is perfectly reasonable and in fact would be a deriliction of duty if they didn't have a backup plan.

This is a very fair assessment of the situation.

 

[Editrain2]

Oh dear

 

[ComUtoR]

The government have sat back and allowed this dispute to progress by preventing TOCs from getting around the negotiating table - so there’s fault on that side. The government (not the unions) are also the ones who are responsible to the travelling public.

What might make it even more weird and wonderfull..

My TOC negotiated in good faith and a deal was alledged to be done. However, the DfT refused to sign it off.

Shapps is a lying sack of proverbial. The unions have negotiated, agreed productivity and changes, everyone is ready. DfT says no.

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder if there’s any correlation between attitudes like this and the comparable median pay scales between the rail industry and the likes of the NHS, the police and the fire service.

If your logic is that employees in the rail industry have done well by being militant that inexorably leads to there being a very logical position that the rest of society, who have being picking up the tab, should fight that head on.

 

[windingroad]

This comment reminds me of a suggestion posted quite a while ago, that rail workers could do things like not check tickets, which would certainly not inconvenience passengers but certainly would inconvenience the TOCs/DfT. Maybe not the most realistic of proposals but there must surely be ways to annoy the DfT without annoying the passenger in the process?

I do think this is a much, much better alternative, but I think (if I remember correctly) the consensus here was that it isn't possible in the UK. And unfortunately there's no incentive for a government to legislate for it, given disruption for passengers is a useful way of politicising disputes.

 

[Starmill]

Oh dear

Is there a statement which could be quoted for easier access to the text? Alternatively if it's only an internal communication it's always worth posting a text summary for future reference. E.g. Message to RMT members saying that the union has rejected a pay offfer from Network Rail it describes as "derisory".

 

[ComUtoR]

If your logic is that employees in the rail industry have done well by being militant that inexorably leads to there being a very logical position that the rest of society, who have being picking up the tab, should fight that head on.

How does 'the rest of society' fight it ?

 

[Lancy99]

Reading the visceral replies in this thread makes me glad not to work for the railways.

Every time I see a railway worker now, I'll be wondering "does he/she also think it acceptable to label some colleagues as 'parasites' "

Repugnant. I hope the dispute falls into the abyss with the nasty attitudes displayed by the Jack Harpers in this thread.

Seems to be the way certain forum members view traincrew as a whole. I look forward to the abyss..

 

[35B]

That's a fair point. I think it comes down to the difference between strong unions (like the RMT) and weak unions. This won't be true in all cases, but membership of the latter probably isn't worth bothering with.

I listened to this interview with Mick Lynch, and he made the point that if you don't know the name of a trade union leader, their union probably isn't doing their job. The approach of the stronger unions is naturally much more public and combative, which is one of the reasons this thread is so heated, but I do think it tends to get results.

I can understand why some people aren't keen.

It may get results, but it does so destructively, and embeds future conflict.

I am not, and never have been, a union member. The one time it was potentially relevant, the union in question demonstrated an utter fixation on a subset of its members at my workplace, and the campaigning edge was highly politicised, in a way that I could not sign up to.

While I respect the role of unions, and the right to withdraw labour, I can't but wonder why it is that the railway industry seems to encounter so many disputes that run to balloting for action.

 

[KM1991]

Reading the visceral replies in this thread makes me glad not to work for the railways.

Every time I see a railway worker now, I'll be wondering "does he/she also think it acceptable to label some colleagues as 'parasites' "

Repugnant. I hope the dispute falls into the abyss with the nasty attitudes displayed by the Jack Harpers in this thread.

Well, there’s only so many words you can use other than scab to describe the low level these strike breakers will go to.

 

[the sniper]

I'm not proposing this at all. I don't begrudge the fact the rail industry pays better than many other industries; I am pointing it out because some people seem to be claiming the opposite is the case.

The problem is that the reality of what you suggest would have consequences that you aren't suggesting.

Says someone who supports action which would cause disarray.

I support a modest pay rise after three years of no pay rises at a time when costs are going through the roof. I would certain like industrial action to be avoided, but if the alternative is to commit to a sustained period of substantial real terms pay degradation, then I can't support that, no. Something would have to be done. Separately there are other factors involved in the dispute that can't just be swept under the carpet.

And your solution is? Pay everyone more? That makes inflation go away, right?

Alternatively, no more pay rises, ordinary people just take it on the chin and suffer the long term consequences, as is expected by the leadership of this country?

You really do like trying to put words in other peoples mouths; instead of doing that, why don't you read what has actually been written?

Which bit wouldn't you agree with? I'm just trying to read between the lines and understand what your position would mean for rail staff.

Reading the visceral replies in this thread makes me glad not to work for the railways.

Every time I see a railway worker now, I'll be wondering "does he/she also think it acceptable to label some colleagues as 'parasites' "

Repugnant. I hope the dispute falls into the abyss with the nasty attitudes displayed by the Jack Harpers in this thread.

Every time I see someone in the street I think, are they a racist? Are they a terrorist? Are they a paedophile? I've read that those people are out there...

The outrage over what in reality comes down to whether colleagues in any workplace are obliged to befriend each other seems rather like a stick that is being used to beat everyone.

 

[uglymonkey]

That way of thinking sadly ends up with a breeze block through someone's windscreen

 

[KM1991]

RMT Circular for network rail staff released today

“DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS – NETWORK RAIL



Talks have taken place between your union’s negotiators and Network Rail management with regards to the pay dispute. Following these talks, I received the following offer this afternoon:



a 2% on base salaries effective from 1st January 2022; and a one-off cash lump sum, equivalent to 0.5% of annual salary, to be paid in the September 2022 pay day; and a further one-off cash lump sum, equivalent 0.5% of annual base salary, to be paid in the November pay day



Network Rail stated that this offer “is made on the basis of affordability and therefore conditional on your written acceptance of the following terms:



you withdraw your current dispute and confirmation is received, by 12pm on 18th June 2022, that strike, or any other form of industrial action, will not take place at any time regarding this current dispute; and achievement of the milestones to deliver the productivity improvements required as part of Modernisation.”



Your negotiators rejected this offer across the table and unanimously recommended that your union’s National Executive Committee reject also. Your NEC endorsed this position and the offer has formally been rejected.



Strike action therefore remains on next week as you deserve a fair deal.



STRIKE TO DEFEND YOUR JOBS!

STRIKE FOR PAY JUSTICE!

STRIKE TO DEFEND YOUR CONDITIONS!



Yours sincerely

Michael Lynch

General Secretary”



Pathetic & insulting offers like this are a waste of everyone’s time.

 

[dakta]

If someone went against you generally in life and did something you fundamentally disagreed with would you treat that person different? Of course you would! Now as others have said some will give verbal abuse some will make it there career to try and make that persons life difficult. I won't...they just won't exist.

Not really. My brother worked in the same place (large insurance firm) and he did something unforgivable which shred the family apart and were pretty much dead to each other.

We still cross paths in meetings and it's polite, courteous get the job done and nothing more, we hate each other but we'd both describe ourselves as just been professional. You don't get to treat people different in a professional capacity when you're acting in a professional capacity

 

[brick60000]

Well, there’s only so many words you can use other than scab to describe the low level these strike breakers will go to.

I know - how about, 'a colleague that holds an opinion with which I disagree, but are helping to keep the customers moving, which ultimately will help to keep them travelling by rail, and thus keep rail staff in a job in the long term'?

 

[Starmill]

2% consolidated plus 1% unconsolidated isn't a good offer, indeed it is a fairly poor offer. But calling it pathetic and insulting is also a very poor negotiation approach. It's weak but it's rather closer to where an agreement could lie than has been proposed thus far.

 

[Need2]

I think the using the word derisory can be classed as understatement of the year!
Unbelievable!

 

[Horizon22]

I find it unlikely anything below 5% will be seen as satisfactory.

 

[windingroad]

This is exactly why I so strongly support the strike. That offer is unacceptable and should be pushed back against strongly.

Obviously it's deliberately low as the government want to provoke a conflict, but no self-respecting union could accept that.

 

[ComUtoR]

2% consolidated plus 1% unconsolidated isn't a good offer, indeed it is a fairly poor offer. But calling it pathetic and insulting is also a very poor negotiation approach. It's weak but it's rather closer to where an agreement could lie than has been proposed thus far.

Grant Shapps said :

I want put on record that we want a fair deal that includes increasing pay for rail staff. The whole point of these reforms is to build a sustainable, growing railway where every rail worker receives a decent annual pay rise. But right now, pay needs to be in step with the wider public sector.

Does this offer reflect a fair deal ? Decent annual pay rise ? or in line with the wider public sector ?

They're not going to back down.

An offer has been put on the table. Sounds like they have already started to back down. I thought they were 'up for a fight' and wanted to crush the unions like the miners ?

 

[Horizon22]

I don't think it's much of a surprise its that low. As with any negotiation you start miles apart and, through discussion, you eventually - sometimes slowly and painfully - get to an acceptable compromise solution

 

[Wolfie]

How does 'the rest of society' fight it ?

Bluntly by supporting defeating RMT.

 

[Starmill]

Does this offer reflect a fair deal ? Decent annual pay rise ? or in line with the wider public sector ?

A fair deal has become a loaded term and isn't an objective test so I cannot comment on what the meaning of that is. I can only note that it would make a small but not so small as to be meaningless difference to people's lives.

As far in line with the wider public sector yes again this is an accurate description of this sort of offer. The wider public sector has been offered up to 2% with some flex based on productivity in most cases.

 

[Wolfie]

What might make it even more weird and wonderfull..

My TOC negotiated in good faith and a deal was alledged to be done. However, the DfT refused to sign it off.

Shapps is a lying sack of proverbial. The unions have negotiated, agreed productivity and changes, everyone is ready. DfT says no.

If that last para is true l agree that is wholly unacceptable.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I do think this is a much, much better alternative, but I think (if I remember correctly) the consensus here was that it isn't possible in the UK. And unfortunately there's no incentive for a government to legislate for it, given disruption for passengers is a useful way of politicising disputes.

What legislation would be needed to ‘allow’ rail workers to stop checking tickets, for example.

 

[Wolfie]

DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS – NETWORK RAIL



Talks have taken place between your union’s negotiators and Network Rail management with regards to the pay dispute. Following these talks, I received the following offer this afternoon:



a 2% on base salaries effective from 1st January 2022; and a one-off cash lump sum, equivalent to 0.5% of annual salary, to be paid in the September 2022 pay day; and a further one-off cash lump sum, equivalent 0.5% of annual base salary, to be paid in the November pay day



Network Rail stated that this offer “is made on the basis of affordability and therefore conditional on your written acceptance of the following terms:



you withdraw your current dispute and confirmation is received, by 12pm on 18th June 2022, that strike, or any other form of industrial action, will not take place at any time regarding this current dispute; and achievement of the milestones to deliver the productivity improvements required as part of Modernisation.”



Your negotiators rejected this offer across the table and unanimously recommended that your union’s National Executive Committee reject also. Your NEC endorsed this position and the offer has formally been rejected.



Strike action therefore remains on next week as you deserve a fair deal.



STRIKE TO DEFEND YOUR JOBS!

STRIKE FOR PAY JUSTICE!

STRIKE TO DEFEND YOUR CONDITIONS!



Yours sincerely

Michael Lynch

General Secretary



Pathetic & insulting offers like this are a waste of everyone’s time.

That "pathetic and insulting offer" is in line with what has been offered to great swathes of the public sector. I for one would not pay an extra 1p in tax for you to get a bigger pay rise

 

[35B]

And this is a perfect way to unsell the union. Dear goodness, some people really can't let go of the 1970s...

And just to be clear, our union the PCS returned an 81% in favour of industrial action from a return of 45% ballots in the recent consultative vote. This could well be a result of industrial action fatigue over decades, combined with a realisation that chasing double figure pay rises is just unrealistic.

To be fair, if I were a union member and that union had voted for industrial action, it would be a bit rich of me to ask colleagues who had respected that vote to represent me, when I'd chosen not to abide by that collective choice.

At that point, if I opposed the planned action so strongly that I would be willing to work normally, I would be considering whether I could remain a union member at all. Like any club, it's unreasonable to expect to get the benefits of membership without abiding by the rules.

I also recognise that, within much of the rail industry, that is a tough choice due to the unions' representative role.

 

[Need2]

I find it unlikely anything below 5% will be seen as satisfactory.

Quite rightly so.

 

[Wolfie]

I think the using the word derisory can be classed as understatement of the year!
Unbelievable!

Time for you to get real! Welcome to the world outside the railway!

I find it unlikely anything below 5% will be seen as satisfactory.

In which case expect to be disappointed. HMG are digging in if you haven't noticed....

 

[Need2]

That "pathetic and insulting offer" is in line with what has been offered to great swathes of the public sector. I for one would not pay an extra 1p in tax for you to get a bigger pay rise

And the award for the most bitter person on the forum goes to?