How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

[bramling]

Yes, it's one of the easiest OSIs in London. From the TL gateline to the LO gateline is just under 140m and that includes taking the corrwect line across Iverson Road pedestrian crossing. Similarly from TL to West Hampstead LU station is only 230m between the LU and TL gatelines using the pedestrian crossing outside the LO station correctly. That's shorter than the length of a 12-car class 700. That is less than the 275m from the nearest point on the Waterloo gateline to the nearest platform of Waterloo East
The area is not really nasty, it is bustling but I've never felt threatened or even uncomfortable there after dark.

Must admit it’s a good few years since I’ve done it, which would have been before the west entrance opened on the Midland station. But when I did it, I hated it. The pavements there always seemed to be packed so that it took rather longer than it felt it should, and of course one would be breathing in a ton of road vehicle pollution. That was more what I meant by nasty.

 

[70014IronDuke]

That's not true! There were many closures north of London that reduced connectivity, for example:

Princes Risborough-Thame-Oxford
Bletchley-Oxford
Welwyn-Luton-Leighton Buzzard
Bedford-Northampton
Bedford-Hitchin
Bedford-Sandy-Cambridge
Cambridge-St Ives-Huntingdon-Kettering
Peterborough-Wellingborough-Northampton
Peterborough-Market Harborough-Rugby
Bishops Stortford-Braintree
Cambridge-Haverhill-Sudbury

In particular, the ECML/MML are across the road from each other in London, but, going north, the first rail route linking the two is Peterborough-Leicester. Between London and Peterborough/Leicester six routes going east/west between the ECML and MML were closed.

I'm glad you've made that list - saves me doing (something like) it. I am not sure of the GE lines, but you have missed out the lines through Northampton - Towcester - Banbury (I'm not exactly sure of the route, TBH). There was also Higham Ferrers to Wellingborough, though that barely counts.

But you well illustrate the point. If you consider the Midland Main line today, compared to what there was in 1960, it is almost bereft of any E-W connnections for 100 miles between London and Leicester. All you have is one measly slow line from Bedford to Bletchley - hardly (at least until E-W rail gets built) a 'strategic' connection.

But the real problem here (and on the WCML - nothing much between Watford and Coventry) and even more on the ECML (nothing between Hitchen and Peterborough) is that in 1960 you had a string of medium-sized towns (eg Luton, Bedford, Wellinboro, Kettering) and small towns (eg Mkt Harboro) which justified and needed connections to London, but then what?

All of those connections you mention connect towns, none of which had universities or major attractions except Oxford and Cambridge. They were mostly short branch lines with some sort of low commuter flows (eg Northampton - Bedford) or longer country routes with even vaguer traffic potential. How many people needed to travel between Kettering and Huntingdon regularly, either then or even now? And the service, just three trains each way per day, reflected this.

Arguably, there were only two 'strategic routes' Oxford - Bletchley - Bedford - Cambridge and Northampton - Wellingboro - Peterborough, and not even these could survive. Once the lines going north hit proper cities, a route did survive: Brum - Leicester - Peterborough - Cambridge/Norwich

And then (to keep on topic), amazingly things improve! You have Crewe - Derby (though but a shadow of its former self) and Derby - Nottingham - Grantham - Skeggy and Nottingham - Newark - Lincoln with a few going on to Grimsby.

North of that second horizontal line, you have all manner of E-W routes once you hit Sheffield.

So, I would argue, that shows how much better off the Midlands and north are in terms of general connections to multiple points.

It didn't help, of course, that one city - city - city route (I'm talking about Nottingham - Leicester - Coventry) was recreated and then destroyed by the WCML 'upgrade' of the 2000s.

 

[AM9]

Must admit it’s a good few years since I’ve done it, which would have been before the west entrance opened on the Midland station. But when I did it, I hated it. The pavements there always seemed to be packed so that it took rather longer than it felt it should, and of course one would be breathing in a ton of road vehicle pollution. That was more what I meant by nasty.

OK, yes I would agree about the traffic pollution but (hopefully) with increasing restrictions on allowable ICV emissions in the GLA area and the transition to EVs, that should progressively improve. I think an ideal opportunity was missed to provide an off-road link direct between the LO & TL stations but that route has been 'developed'. WHP is rapidly becoming an essential interchange location in the inner suburbs which in part is driving both personal safety (as in numbers) and likely to encourage further streamlining of the OSI. With 4tph fast and 4tph slow each way throughout the day on Thameslink, 8 tph each way on LO and 24tph each way on the Jubilee, the three lines are well matched to handle a large interchange flow.

 

[YorksLad12]

One of the problems with the current post-Covid situation, is that if you still choose to go by train you're more likely to need to go via Leeds... which comes at a premium. It would be nice if a bit of consideration was given to the admittedly small numbers of Huddersfield to Castleford passengers who have to pay the higher fare via Leeds even though they don't leave the station. Of course an easement would be exploited by Leeds passengers who would ask to be let through the gates "to go to WHSmiths" and simply walk out.
At least changing at Leeds for Wakefield makes sense geographically. Going from Huddersfield to Halifax via Leeds would be utterly daft, even though it's probably quicker than waiting nearly two hours if you've just missed the direct service. It's not like there's another option though- changing at Mirfield is doable if you happen to coincide with a Grand Central service I suppose, but otherwise it's a change at Mirfield and Sowerby Bridge, which I'm not certain is even a permitted route.

Drifting off-topic slightly: there's a Zone 2-5 MCard for people who don't travel into Leeds. The problem with ticketing is that it assumes you're travelling to the other side of the ticket gates, so you couldn't use it to travel from Huddersfield to Wakefield via Leeds. But since it's now an electronic product I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed now - you've clearly not travelled "to Leeds" if that's the only way you can make your journey and you haven't passed through the gates (because your card or app would get rejected).

 

[RT4038]

I suppose one of the significant differences is that in the more densely populated “North” the remaining rail network is more complex than in most of the South (other than London and the arc round from the Thames to roughly the Mid Sussex Line) - s the lack of through services on that network is more obviously resolvable (and thus frustrating) than where no physical connection has actually existed for 60-odd years.

Even if it existed then! Where the physical connection did exist, the infrequent train service offering often did not cater for the sort of journeys mentioned in earlier posts.

 

[Mikey C]

OK, yes I would agree about the traffic pollution but (hopefully) with increasing restrictions on allowable ICV emissions in the GLA area and the transition to EVs, that should progressively improve. I think an ideal opportunity was missed to provide an off-road link direct between the LO & TL stations but that route has been 'developed'. WHP is rapidly becoming an essential interchange location in the inner suburbs which in part is driving both personal safety (as in numbers) and likely to encourage further streamlining of the OSI. With 4tph fast and 4tph slow each way throughout the day on Thameslink, 8 tph each way on LO and 24tph each way on the Jubilee, the three lines are well matched to handle a large interchange flow.

Traffic pollution isn't an issue anyway, seeing that West Hampstead is within the London ULEZ, and the area is fairly open (unlike say the walk along the Euston Road between Euston and STP)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Drifting off-topic slightly: there's a Zone 2-5 MCard for people who don't travel into Leeds. The problem with ticketing is that it assumes you're travelling to the other side of the ticket gates, so you couldn't use it to travel from Huddersfield to Wakefield via Leeds. But since it's now an electronic product I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed now - you've clearly not travelled "to Leeds" if that's the only way you can make your journey and you haven't passed through the gates (because your card or app would get rejected).

I know, I used to have one before the Covid nonsense started up. I was going to start up with it again but then the Arriva bus strike happened!

An easement allowing use of 2-5 MCards into Leeds for interchange only on journeys that are no longer possible via other routes due to cuts, would probably be less of a risk than reducing the "via Leeds" fares as it wouldn't open a loophole to be exploited. That said, the same easement could apply to regular tickets as long as the gate staff were on the ball. At Leeds there's an argument that if you're interchanging you don't need to cross the barriers at all, as there are facilities (toilets, cafés etc.) on the paid side too. Not quite the same choices, but there's less need to leave the paid side at Leeds than at many other stations.

 

[AM9]

Traffic pollution isn't an issue anyway, seeing that West Hampstead is within the London ULEZ, and the area is fairly open (unlike say the walk along the Euston Road between Euston and STP)

Yes it is but there's still some pollution from non-compliant vehicles that attract a charge, plus petrol Euro 4 and diesel Euro 6 still emit pollutants which can be concentrated in a restricted space. All of that gratefully will reduce even more with EVs becoming the norm. Any HGVs only need to meet the LEZ requirements which is Euro VI so although low by HGV standards, they equate to a more polluting diesel car.

 

[Taunton]

If you think this is bad, try the West Country, say Taunton to Bournemouth.

Actually getting around across the North by rail is notably easier than the South-East. There is no rail connection eastwards of the Midland Main Line, for example, until you get well beyond Leicester, more than 100 miles. Journeys like Slough to Watford, 20 minutes by motorway, are only practical via London. Furthermore, unlike other major nodes, London has a whole series of separate termini if you have resorted to travelling through it, some not even linked by a single Underground line.

The forthcoming East-West line has potential, but should really be seen as Ipswich to Southampton, rather than just Oxford to Cambridge.

 

[Ken H]

There is a big hole in the North. Try getting from West Yorkshire to the Lakes. To Kendal, Windermere or Penrith. Nightmare.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, it's one of the easiest OSIs in London. From the TL gateline to the LO gateline is just under 140m and that includes taking the corrwect line across Iverson Road pedestrian crossing. Similarly from TL to West Hampstead LU station is only 230m between the LU and TL gatelines using the pedestrian crossing outside the LO station correctly. That's shorter than the length of a 12-car class 700. That is less than the 275m from the nearest point on the Waterloo gateline to the nearest platform of Waterloo East
The area is not really nasty, it is bustling but I've never felt threatened or even uncomfortable there after dark.

Have had this discussion before - West Hampstead street wise is absolutely fine - much worse places both in the SE and elsewhere.....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Actually getting around across the North by rail is notably easier than the South-East. There is no rail connection eastwards of the Midland Main Line, for example, until you get well beyond Leicester, more than 100 miles.

Is there all that much demand for direct trains between say Wellingborough and Huntingdon (or between Bedford and St. Neots)?

There is a big hole in the North. Try getting from West Yorkshire to the Lakes. To Kendal, Windermere or Penrith. Nightmare.

Can be done fairly straightforwardly by travelling from Leeds to Preston (via Blackburn) or alternatively from Leeds to Lancaster (via Bentham) with just one change.

 

[bramling]

Is there much demand for direct trains between say Wellingborough and Huntingdon (or Bedford and St. Neots)?

If one considers how busy roads are in these areas, the answer is probably yes.

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, yes I would agree about the traffic pollution but (hopefully) with increasing restrictions on allowable ICV emissions in the GLA area and the transition to EVs, that should progressively improve. I think an ideal opportunity was missed to provide an off-road link direct between the LO & TL stations but that route has been 'developed'. WHP is rapidly becoming an essential interchange location in the inner suburbs which in part is driving both personal safety (as in numbers) and likely to encourage further streamlining of the OSI. With 4tph fast and 4tph slow each way throughout the day on Thameslink, 8 tph each way on LO and 24tph each way on the Jubilee, the three lines are well matched to handle a large interchange flow.

The Elizabeth Line has already, and will further, put a big dent in transfer from West Hampstead Thameslink to the Jubilee.

Try getting from West Yorkshire to the Lakes. To Kendal, Windermere or Penrith. Nightmare.

Done it several times without issues. Not quick, granted, but certainly not a nightmare.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

In Sussex Brighton and Hove buses do a fairly good job of filling in the gaps of the rail network. The 27, 28 and 29 routes are particularly good examples of this (Brighton-Lewes-Ringmer/Uckfield/Tunbridge Wells), offering 2 or 3 buses and hour off-peak and getting right into the towns rather than skirting their edges. http://www.busatlas.uk/busatlas05_sussex_2022_05.pdf

27 doesn't go to Lewes, Ringmer, Uckfield or Tunbridge Wells, only the 28/29/29X do

 

[Deerfold]

Drifting off-topic slightly: there's a Zone 2-5 MCard for people who don't travel into Leeds. The problem with ticketing is that it assumes you're travelling to the other side of the ticket gates, so you couldn't use it to travel from Huddersfield to Wakefield via Leeds. But since it's now an electronic product I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed now - you've clearly not travelled "to Leeds" if that's the only way you can make your journey and you haven't passed through the gates (because your card or app would get rejected).

Though the terms and conditions of an MCard aren't as clear as they used to be, I wouldn't fancy arguing it if checked whilst travelling in or out of Zone 1. I'm not sure what difference it makes that it's now an electronic product.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though the terms and conditions of an MCard aren't as clear as they used to be, I wouldn't fancy arguing it if checked whilst travelling in or out of Zone 1. I'm not sure what difference it makes that it's now an electronic product.

Zonal products generally require validity in every zone you cross, not just the ones at the ends. I would be surprised if this was valid.

 

[RichJF]

In the southeast, the services along the coast are pretty good and well used, but there are some very obvious missing parts elsewhere.

Kent has an amazing network which makes it extremely easy to get between towns. Think of all the main towns, Ashford, Canterbury, Maidstone, Dover, the North Kent conurbation, you can go in almost any direction. This is the legacy of British Rail's excellent Kent electrification scheme which enabled the survival of the network.

Poor old Sussex on the other hand, had its network largely destroyed in the disastrous closure programme. You have the BML, the coastal route and a few others but that's it. Try getting from Crowborough or East Grinstead to the coast. Tunbridge Wells to Brighton, or Hailsham to anywhere by train.

Absolute nightmare if you're trying to get to Gatwick Airport from East Sussex/West Kent.

 

[Taunton]

The Elizabeth Line has already, and will further, put a big dent in transfer from West Hampstead Thameslink to the Jubilee.

The issue with West Hampstead not becoming a traffic equivalent of Clapham Junction is that most trains pass there without stopping.

Doing Rickmansworth to Leicester I passed through there twice, the better part of two hours apart, on Chiltern to Marylebone, then a Midland express to Leicester. How else?

Before we laugh at a Leicester train stopping at West Hampstead, look indeed at Clapham Junction, where fasts to Basingstoke etc in the early morning commonly take on two to three TIMES the number of passengers there than they did leaving Waterloo.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Absolute nightmare if you're trying to get to Gatwick Airport from East Sussex/West Kent.

Eh? There's hourly direct trains from Ore/Hastings/St. Leonards/Bexhill/Eastbourne/Lewes (all in East Sussex) to/from Gatwick Airport.

And Tonbridge in West Kent just requires the one change (at Redhill) for Gatwick Airport.

 

[bramling]

Eh? There's hourly direct trains from Ore/Hastings/St. Leonards/Bexhill/Eastbourne/Lewes (all in East Sussex) to/from Gatwick Airport.

And Tonbridge in West Kent just requires the one change (at Redhill) for Gatwick Airport.

There are certainly some journeys in the area that are awkward.

I know someone who needed to use the train to travel from Folkestone to East Grinstead, which was certainly an interesting one (especially as the Tonbridge-Redhill line passes over the East Grinstead line, so there would have been a couple of hours travelling just to get back to the same spot!).

Lewes to Tunbridge Wells is another awkward one.

 

[ar10642]

Not sure that you'd really expect an origin station on a relatively minor branch line to be connected to much more of the Southern network than it currently is. The journey by rail between Seaford and Haywards Heath can still usually be done in less than an hour and that includes the 15 minute interchange time at Lewes. Half hour frequency during the day also.

Seaford - Haywards Heath driving time is 35 - 40 minutes. So the train used to be comparable on time when the connection was 5 minutes. Now much slower coming back from Seaford.

Very bad on cost, approx twice as much as driving for just one person.

 

[zwk500]

There are certainly some journeys in the area that are awkward.

I know someone who needed to use the train to travel from Folkestone to East Grinstead, which was certainly an interesting one (especially as the Tonbridge-Redhill line passes over the East Grinstead line, so there would have been a couple of hours travelling just to get back to the same spot!).

Lewes to Tunbridge Wells is another awkward one.

These are not major journey flows though. As I mentioned, the 29 Bus seems to cope with Tunbridge Wells-Lewes-Brighton flows perfectly well. The Kent/Sussex Border has the slight disadvantage of the legacy of competing railway companies so it's lines are not laid out in the manner you might choose to do so now. But realistically the rail capacity that exists in the Sussex area needs to be focused on the biggest flows to London, Gatwick and Brighton, and small towns of 10-20,000 people are inevitably going to lose out at some point. East Grinstead gets hit harder than most, I grant you.

 

[ar10642]

There are certainly some journeys in the area that are awkward.

I know someone who needed to use the train to travel from Folkestone to East Grinstead, which was certainly an interesting one (especially as the Tonbridge-Redhill line passes over the East Grinstead line, so there would have been a couple of hours travelling just to get back to the same spot!).

Lewes to Tunbridge Wells is another awkward one.

Uckfield/East Grinstead to anywhere else in Sussex or Kent not on those lines is hopeless. Even Uckfield - East Grinstead as a journey is pretty useless compared to the drive time.

Sheffield Park Bluebell Railway is really near to me and could be an actually useful railway line to me, sadly not as a preserved railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

The issue with West Hampstead not becoming a traffic equivalent of Clapham Junction is that most trains pass there without stopping.

Doing Rickmansworth to Leicester I passed through there twice, the better part of two hours apart, on Chiltern to Marylebone, then a Midland express to Leicester. How else?

Before we laugh at a Leicester train stopping at West Hampstead, look indeed at Clapham Junction, where fasts to Basingstoke etc in the early morning commonly take on two to three TIMES the number of passengers there than they did leaving Waterloo.

In the standard off peak hour, more trains call at the West Hampstead complex (40) than pass through non stop (32). It is of course true that the longer distance services are the ones that don’t stop.

But, as ever, there is always a way. I posted last summer about doing a trip from Rickmansworth to St Albans, where everything just clicked. 46 mins IIRC, including changes at Harrow on the Hill, Finchley Rd, and from Jubilee to Thameslink at West Hampstead. Had I instead chosen to go south at West Hampstead, I could have comfortably done Rickmansworth to Leicester in under 2 hours.

Accdoting that my journey was an extreme example unlikely to be bettered, a more typical journey from Rickmansworth to Leicester would see you leaving Rickmansworth on the Met Line direct to St Pancras, a 15 minute change there onto a Leicester fast, and arriving in Leicester a shade over 2 hours after you left Ricky. So I’m not quite sure how you managed to go through the two West Hampsteads nearly 2 hours apart without an extended layover in London.

 

[YorksLad12]

Can be done fairly straightforwardly by travelling from Leeds to Preston (via Blackburn) or alternatively from Leeds to Lancaster (via Bentham) with just one change.

Well it's an hourly service from Leeds to Lancaster now. No... hang on...

Done it several times without issues. Not quick, granted, but certainly not a nightmare.

If you time it right, and with the connections, yes. Whereas if I want to go to London it's every 30 minutes.

Zonal products generally require validity in every zone you cross, not just the ones at the ends. I would be surprised if this was valid.

Which brings us back to perhaps it should be valid in the circumstances. If the card or app ticket doesn't let you out of the station, showing it to the person on the gate also shouldn't work because they can look at it and see that it's not valid for Leeds. And Leeds has facilities on the platform side of the gate line, so there's no excuse for being allowed through really. But Leeds is an exception, and I've taken us off topic (sorry).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Seaford - Haywards Heath driving time is 35 - 40 minutes. So the train used to be comparable on time when the connection was 5 minutes. Now much slower coming back from Seaford.

Very bad on cost, approx twice as much as driving for just one person.

Ballpark 40-42 miles return journey by car. Depending on the cost of running a car (which is not just the fuel cost) it could still be cheaper.

Seaford to Haywards Heath can however be done for £8.70 (Off Peak Day Return with a Network Railcard).

There is a big hole in the North. Try getting from West Yorkshire to the Lakes. To Kendal, Windermere or Penrith. Nightmare.

Can be done fairly straightforwardly by travelling from Leeds to Preston (via Blackburn) or alternatively from Leeds to Lancaster (via Bentham) with just one change.

Well it's an hourly service from Leeds to Lancaster now. No... hang on...

Leeds to Preston is hourly. Leeds to Lancaster is the additional option.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you time it right, and with the connections, yes. Whereas if I want to go to London it's every 30 minutes.

Sounds about right given the relative importance of economic activity between the respective locations.

 

[ar10642]

Ballpark 40-42 miles return journey by car. Depending on the cost of running a car (which is not just the fuel cost) it could still be cheaper.

Seaford to Haywards Heath can however be done for £8.70 (Off Peak Day Return with a Network Railcard).

Only on a weekend (bus replacements a lot of the time) or bank holiday because otherwise you have the £13 minimum fare and in any case isn't available during the week before 10AM.

The only cost you ever consider is the fuel because the choice is not drive or get rid of the car. It's drive or leave it at home.

For my car the journey costs about £8 return and you can take the whole family. So about the same if you're travelling on your own and you can actually get the railcard discount.

The problem is most journeys in the South East are like this, you have to either really want to take the train for some reason or because you have no other choice.

 

[wilbers]

Even a small number of services on a direct route can make a difference. I googled Doctor Who museum (to find out opening times for the one at Allendale that I'm going to visit in the next week or two), and accidentally found out there is a Doctor Who exhibition in Liverpool. On checking train times I see the Glasgow-Liverpool direct TPE are running again (2tpd each direction, and they also stop at Penrith), one that arrives at 1143 makes a long day trip viable, so that should be my day out for mid-September. A few days in Daventry is my bigger trip for late this month, but I'll be driving there - years since I've driven that far.