Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[AlbertBeale]

From experience on-train staff are far better with enquiries and selling tickets. And I find google is far more helpful and finding out what ticket restrictions mean than booking office staff, even some members of this site seems to understand them better. (Which you have logged on to, registered and connected to the internet, to read this forum with). I can also read them within my own time and don't have to ask the booking office with a queue behind and 10 minutes before the train leaves.

I'm struggling to understand what the relevance/implication is of that reference to me in your aside...

And NB - there's no need to register or log in to this forum to read what's here.

 

[Parallel]

I generally use a ticket office where possible because my phone battery is terrible and I don’t have a printer at home to print off QR codes. I did use TVMs quite often until the tickets one day didn’t print (yet I got charged) and it took several emails to get the TOC to refund me, in the end they said they would but never did and I gave up because the fare was disproportionate to the amount of time I was spending emailing them.

A new phone is on the cards imminently though so I’d imagine I’ll be using e-tickets a lot more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is going to cause terrible queues at barriers on the underground with people (like me) who can't orientate their tickets on the scanners.

Coming into St Pancras yesterday with an e-ticket on a pdf on a phone yesterday, I completely failed to scan the ticket on the barrier reader as the phone kept rotating or the code scrolled off the page. I went to the desk to ask to be let through. Two passengers evading their fare went through the wide gate in the process.

On iPhones you can set it up, if like me you have it permanently on vibrate, so the "mute" switch is actually a rotate lock switch. I find this very useful.

Yes, face up scanning of phones would be a big step forward.

As would camera rather than laser based scanners.

 

[OscarH]

Yes, face up scanning of phones would be a big step forward.

I'm prefer etickets, but I do think that the industry made a mistake here, it'd be much easier to scan barcodes with downwards facing scanners (there might be a reason it was done this way, but it certainly makes it harder to scan then for me)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm prefer etickets, but I do think that the industry made a mistake here, it'd be much easier to scan barcodes with downwards facing scanners (there might be a reason it was done this way, but it certainly makes it harder to scan then for me)

I definitely agree with this and don't entirely see why they went the way they did. Downwards facing camera based scanners would work best, ideally with a shaped LED projection showing the area they are scanning so it can easily be lined up.

I can only guess that it has to do with robustness, i.e. people jumping gates might break the camera arm off. Laser scanners aren't cheaper so far as I am aware.

 

[Ken H]

I definitely agree with this and don't entirely see why they went the way they did. Downwards facing camera based scanners would work best, ideally with a shaped LED projection showing the area they are scanning so it can easily be lined up.

I can only guess that it has to do with robustness, i.e. people jumping gates might break the camera arm off. Laser scanners aren't cheaper so far as I am aware.

A decent set up for a scanner would read the ticket barcode up or down, and any way up. Anything else will have people fumbling to get it right.
When yiu see people passing gates with credit card mag stripe tickets its very quick. Barcode needs to be as fast.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Our S&B gates have been updated with a new scanner on the top front of the gate and seem to be much better at scanning than gates from other suppliers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Our S&B gates have been updated with a new scanner on the top front of the gate and seem to be much better at scanning than gates from other suppliers.

I think the answer to the "TfL problem" may well come with serious research being done on designing scanners (testing a number of designs) such that a reasonably large random set of people of a wide demographic are no slower at passing through it than using a CCST ticket. I think camera-based scanners will be key - one thing I've noticed is that when using the Costa Coffee app to collect points from a machine you pretty much just have to turn the camera on and wave it at the barcode, so it's clearly possible. OK, iPhones are quite expensive, but you don't need the camera to be thin to mount it on a gate, it can be as thick as you like, so the cost will be lower.

Other design features can mitigate e.g. people faffing trying to find their e-ticket, e.g. by clear signage stating "please have your ticket ready before approaching the barrier" and providing an obvious, signed "faffing area" (not sure what you'd call it!) which isn't blocking the gateline.

The railway can then split the cost with TfL, as both would save substantial money by being able to remove the CCST readers.

 

[nlogax]

Other design features can mitigate e.g. people faffing trying to find their e-ticket, e.g. by clear signage stating "please have your ticket ready before approaching the barrier" and providing an obvious, signed "faffing area" (not sure what you'd call it!) which isn't blocking the gateline.

Mitigating against faffing and a general lack of spatial awareness is hard work at the best of times. I fear we're going to be getting a lot of automated announcements at gatelines in our CCST-free future regardless of the point size on those shiny new RA2 signs.

 

[_toommm_]

Our S&B gates have been updated with a new scanner on the top front of the gate and seem to be much better at scanning than gates from other suppliers.

I really hope that it isn’t the same design that Manchester Victoria have, because that one is about as good as a chocolate teapot. Give it thirty seconds after a busy service loads out, and they have to open the wide gate for a few minutes to let e-ticket users through. No matter how big your phone is, they never scan on those gates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mitigating against faffing and a general lack of spatial awareness is hard work at the best of times.

It is, which is why it takes a lot of trial and error (and cost) to make things "just flow" - it can be done, though, but sadly the railway is awful at it.

Physical UI design for products and services, while not my job (though I do design IT UIs to an extent) is something I find fascinating and far too often neglected by businesses.

 

[Wallsendmag]

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's going to be easier to use than the front mounted ones that require an adult to bend over to use. There's a culture in the railway of "put stuff low down because wheelchairs" without considering whether wheelchair users will use that thing or not - GWR's awfully designed TVMs with the card slot about 18" off the floor are a prime example.

 

[sor]

On iPhones you can set it up, if like me you have it permanently on vibrate, so the "mute" switch is actually a rotate lock switch. I find this very useful.



As would camera rather than laser based scanners.

Providing the facility to import tickets into Apple or Google Wallets would probably sort that, or equivalent functionality in a train operator app (though not through m-tickets, of course!)

One of the few good things about the Railcard app, when it is working - it forces the phone into portrait view and increases the brightness for the barcode (that I've never had scanned, what is it actually for?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Providing the facility to import tickets into Apple or Google Wallets would probably sort that, or equivalent functionality in a train operator app (though not through m-tickets, of course!)

So far as I'm aware all retailers do support Apple Wallet. Fewer support Google Wallet as it's not as easy to support (it's an online thing, not just a PKPASS file) but it's growing.

 

[_toommm_]

Providing the facility to import tickets into Apple or Google Wallets would probably sort that, or equivalent functionality in a train operator app (though not through m-tickets, of course!)

One of the few good things about the Railcard app, when it is working - it forces the phone into portrait view and increases the brightness for the barcode (that I've never had scanned, what is it actually for?)

Had it scanned once on an EMT service, ironically back when the barcodes often didn’t show and the railcards often showed as expired when they weren’t. That took a bit of time to sort out with the guard.

 

[Runningaround]

I'm struggling to understand what the relevance/implication is of that reference to me in your aside...

And NB - there's no need to register or log in to this forum to read what's here.

You are claiming you don't know how to buy tickets without the use of a booking office, yet you are on here posting on an internet forum that needs to be registered to. It's as easy as doing exactly that to buy a ticket online.
You also you believe to be on the side of vulnerable people, yet you are firmly against anything that helps them protect any money they have this includes the ability to safely store their money instead of withdrawing the whole lot from a girobank. I don't think you are as aware as you think you are how living on the breadline is like, but are quick to determine that others on this forum haven't ever been in the position. Perhaps there are posters here that know far more about it than you, but aren't blinded by some ideological society that should only serve your purposes.

 

[AM9]

I think the answer to the "TfL problem" may well come with serious research being done on designing scanners (testing a number of designs) such that a reasonably large random set of people of a wide demographic are no slower at passing through it than using a CCST ticket. I think camera-based scanners will be key - one thing I've noticed is that when using the Costa Coffee app to collect points from a machine you pretty much just have to turn the camera on and wave it at the barcode, so it's clearly possible. OK, iPhones are quite expensive, but you don't need the camera to be thin to mount it on a gate, it can be as thick as you like, so the cost will be lower.

Other design features can mitigate e.g. people faffing trying to find their e-ticket, e.g. by clear signage stating "please have your ticket ready before approaching the barrier" and providing an obvious, signed "faffing area" (not sure what you'd call it!) which isn't blocking the gateline.

The railway can then split the cost with TfL, as both would save substantial money by being able to remove the CCST readers.

I actually agree with most of that, I don't have an issue with e-tickets if they can be printed, (that avoids the 'faffing issue' as you refer to it). You have commented that e-tickets work best if the readers have a live connection with the back-office, which prevents a lot of fraudulent use of those tickets, so as TfL has a geographically compact spread of locations, with very few quiet stations, (there aren't many like Roding Valley), achieving such a connection might be comparatively easy.
I regularly use the camera barcode scanners in the local Waitrose to scan the vouchers that are no longer on paper. The reader projects a dim green disc onto the screen so it is easy to see when the phone is aligned.

 

[Runningaround]

I generally use a ticket office where possible because my phone battery is terrible and I don’t have a printer at home to print off QR codes. I did use TVMs quite often until the tickets one day didn’t print (yet I got charged) and it took several emails to get the TOC to refund me, in the end they said they would but never did and I gave up because the fare was disproportionate to the amount of time I was spending emailing them.

A new phone is on the cards imminently though so I’d imagine I’ll be using e-tickets a lot more.

So you take the charger with you I guess so to use it for other things, trains have sockets these days as well. Just think how easier it is if that ticket was bought online you just send a screenshot or upload that ticket.

 

[Runningaround]

I think the answer to the "TfL problem" may well come with serious research being done on designing scanners (testing a number of designs) such that a reasonably large random set of people of a wide demographic are no slower at passing through it than using a CCST ticket. I think camera-based scanners will be key - one thing I've noticed is that when using the Costa Coffee app to collect points from a machine you pretty much just have to turn the camera on and wave it at the barcode, so it's clearly possible. OK, iPhones are quite expensive, but you don't need the camera to be thin to mount it on a gate, it can be as thick as you like, so the cost will be lower.

Other design features can mitigate e.g. people faffing trying to find their e-ticket, e.g. by clear signage stating "please have your ticket ready before approaching the barrier" and providing an obvious, signed "faffing area" (not sure what you'd call it!) which isn't blocking the gateline.

The railway can then split the cost with TfL, as both would save substantial money by being able to remove the CCST readers.

How many passengers are held up now having to find staff to let them through each barrier?
I believe TFL would also lose income, as a lot of E-ticket & Bog Roll ticket holders(Who have no choice of an alternative) just give up and use their bank card and ultimately paying twice.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There shouldn’t be any eTickets or PRT on the TfL lines

 

[Parallel]

So you take the charger with you I guess so to use it for other things, trains have sockets these days as well. Just think how easier it is if that ticket was bought online you just send a screenshot or upload that ticket.

I know the benefits of e-tickets and regularly use them for short journeys, but a paper ticket also offers me an advantage in that I don’t need to carry round a cable and power bank (in the dying days of using this phone!)

 

[Wallsendmag]

I know the benefits of e-tickets and regularly use them for short journeys, but a paper ticket also offers me an advantage in that I don’t need to carry round a cable and power bank (in the dying days of using this phone!)

Just print the eTicket (anyone hear an echo)

 

[Parallel]

Just print the eTicket (anyone hear an echo)

I would need to buy a printer first!

 

[AlbertBeale]

You are claiming you don't know how to buy tickets without the use of a booking office, yet you are on here posting on an internet forum that needs to be registered to. It's as easy as doing exactly that to buy a ticket online.
You also you believe to be on the side of vulnerable people, yet you are firmly against anything that helps them protect any money they have this includes the ability to safely store their money instead of withdrawing the whole lot from a girobank. I don't think you are as aware as you think you are how living on the breadline is like, but are quick to determine that others on this forum haven't ever been in the position. Perhaps there are posters here that know far more about it than you, but aren't blinded by some ideological society that should only serve your purposes.

No, I've never said I don't know how to buy tickets without the use of a ticket office - you're making things up I'm afraid. What I said is that I personally (as do some other people) find using a ticket office preferable for many reasons (including - but not limited to - speed, convenience, and security). My experiences and my preferences are what they are, and make sense for me in my situation; they aren't wrong if they're different from your preferences. They're right for me, just as your preferences and judgement might be right for you. And note, also, that whether or not you know how to buy tickets without the use of a ticket office isn't the same thing as whether or not you're able to buy tickets without the use of a ticket office.

Also, you're confusing storing money and only having an electronic representation of it, with physically having the money. I certainly do know people who would find it extremely difficult to buy a ticket online; and I know people who rely on the use of cash in order to keep within their budget. If you choose to believe that such people can't exist, that's up to you.

And another fiction: I have never claimed that others on this forum don't know what it's like to be on the breadline - some might well do. I do know about my experience and that of people I actually know; that experience and knowledge is part of what I base my judgements on.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I personally (as do some other people) find using a ticket office preferable for many reasons (including - but not limited to - speed, convenience, and security).

How is a ticket office more secure?
If you're paying cash that's already less secure (cash is always a risk, it's always better to a thief than electronic methods)
You have to shout your needs through a piece of glass so everyone knows when you're away and for how long.
Virtually all data breaches are caused by a human element not doing their job correctly, either inadvertently or deliberately as part of an inside job. Of course, 99.9% of people handling card details are fine, but certainly it's not more secure.
So in what way is a ticket office more secure?

 

[AlbertBeale]

How is a ticket office more secure?
If you're paying cash that's already less secure (cash is always a risk, it's always better to a thief than electronic methods)
You have to shout your needs through a piece of glass so everyone knows when you're away and for how long.
Virtually all data breaches are caused by a human element not doing their job correctly, either inadvertently or deliberately as part of an inside job. Of course, 99.9% of people handling card details are fine, but certainly it's not more secure.
So in what way is a ticket office more secure?

There's nothing you mention here that I haven't already considered - I'm not stupid. But I have, looking at things in a rather deeper way, and balancing all the pros and cons, and based on my own experience, come to a different overall conclusion as to what's best in my situation. Why do you find it so alarming that someone makes a different judgement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you find it so alarming that someone makes a different judgement?

Because your opinions are not driven by fact, yet you're claiming they are.

"I prefer a ticket office because I like to talk to a person and have a paper ticket in my hands" is fine, though my answer to that is "then you should bear the full cost as I don't want to fund your personal preferences for you". Coming up with false justifications on a public forum is opening those to challenge.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Because your opinions are not driven by fact, yet you're claiming they are.

"I prefer a ticket office because I like to talk to a person and have a paper ticket in my hands" is fine, though my answer to that is "then you should bear the full cost as I don't want to fund your personal preferences for you". Coming up with false justifications on a public forum is opening those to challenge.

Again, you're assuming that people's experiences and understanding and analysis of the world, and their needs, are the same as yours, and that other people can't draw different conclusions by - for quite rational reasons - balancing factors differently. Some posters here seem to think that their preferences are purely logical and other people's are irrational. Preferences are not always arbitrary!

(Incidentally, does any decision you take in your life - let's call it some preference - never "cost" other people in any way?)

Also, the matter of "cost" in a public service situation is quite complex - cost to whom? Those supplying the service? Those using it? Wider society? Etc. But now we're going off into wider political and philosophical areas that are beyond this immediate discussion.

 

[penguin8967]

I personally think the convenience of e-tickets and the reliability of ITSO/smartcard tickets should be combined, with the ability to store tickets on your phone and tap them on barriers like you would with a smartcard. The technology is mainly there for it - most modern phones have NFC, the majority of barriers have smartcard readers and it would allow cross-London tickets to be issued on something other than CCST without any additional infrastructure or modifications to ticket barriers.

This can already be done up in Newcastle on the Tyne and Wear Metro with a digital Pop card (their Oyster-style PAYG card).