New law, minimum service level must run on strike days

[Trainbike46]

if railways didnt have unions then you wouldnt need negotiations with them.
Employees would be able to raise by their merits, rather than by someone negotiating for the good of the whole.

Do you work in IT by any chance? because I think that is the main industry that isn't unionised where workers do genuinely have the option of negotiating individually. In many industries, including universities, the royal mail, the civil service and the railways this simply isn't true; in those industries we need unions. If, in the future, there is an excess of IT workers I suspect that industry will also change to make individual negotiation harder/impossible.

The problem for rail is it is now in competition with Road and IT. In my world suburbia roads are more busy than ever since covid.. if they bought an extra car in Covid its 3-5 years before they sell it. Similarly the well trodden working from home.

Railways are not doing anything to encourage passengers to return, indeed in London it feels like they are doing the opposite, and hence justifying that extra car bought in lockdown.

I agree the railways need to do more to encourage passengers to return, but the main problems I see are caused by staff shortages (e.g. Avanti), and teasury interference (making adaptations to the expected new passenger flows much harder). In addition, the DfT effectively preventing negotiations with the unions is genuinely making everything worse, not better

i’m similarly not reading many complaints about the strikes, not like the old days where it was a 72 hour media feast covering before, during and after..indeed I dont know anyone who cares about the strikes.. they just wfh / drive the car.

Part of it is that things like the Avanti mess are much more impactful on passengers than the strikes to be honest

Raise corporate taxes, just encourages off shoring of profits but also on shoring of global losses… Was it Goldmans who onshored all its global losses onto its UK entity ensuring it has no UK tax to pay for around 60 years back during Gordon Browns tenure ?

I don't think this is the best place to talk about tax policy in detail, but in short, I read somewhere that while the headline corporation tax was reduced in the UK, the actual rate paid was about the same, as the government simultaneously removed tax rebates for investment. I was proposing to (fully or partially) reverse this to promote investment in the U in a revenue-neutral manner, to increase productivity.

Raising productivity on railways is a hard thing to do, you cant make the train go faster and simply earn more profit Like in other industries efficiency is volume… on my line the weekend service has been cut by 2/3rds, the train length by half… it is still rammed to standing as a consequence, on Monday its back to full service and full length, its still rammed to standing, except in the afternoons and later evenings. Theyve cut the early morning, and the last 3 at night.. yet its still running at a record loss, if you believe what we are told.

It is true that it is hard to raise productivity, but that doesn't mean it's impossible; more passengers per train is one route, another is fewer staff per train. Which is more realistic will depend on the locality. And we don't necesarily have to raise productivity on every line, if the average productivity goes up, that would be a start.

if its the case the only way a train minimises its loss is to be at 3x seating capacity throughout… then something somewhere is broken.

This isn't true, before covid many TOCs, including those that didn't run truly rammed very often (such as LNER), returned premiums to government.

 

[Watershed]

This isn't true, before covid many TOCs, including those that didn't run truly rammed very often (such as LNER), returned premiums to government.

They might have returned premia to the government, but the government still pays a huge subsidy to Network Rail.

Once this is distributed by route and then by the number of miles ran by each TOC, the only operators that even broke even (pre-Covid) were VTEC and SWR - which were both paying the DfT unsustainable premia, essentially funded by parent company subsidy.

The rail network would probably have to be cut back to something in line with the Serpell report in order to eliminate subsidy.

 

[yorksrob]

They might have returned premia to the government, but the government still pays a huge subsidy to Network Rail.

Once this is distributed by route and then by the number of miles ran by each TOC, the only operators that even broke even (pre-Covid) were VTEC and SWR - which were both paying the DfT unsustainable premia, essentially funded by parent company subsidy.

I wonder what proportion of the NR subsidy went to large enhancements such as Crossrail etc.

I would like to see more electrification, however if needed be, NR could possibly get by for a few years without big enhancements.

 

[Thirteen]

Dumb question and off-topic but is new rolling stock decided by the TOCs or the DfT? I assume it's done based on the age of the stock and if it's cheaper to upgrade than tinkering.

 

[eldomtom2]

In respect of investment, take farming. Farmers used to use cheap foreign labour with crap conditions because it was more than they got at home. If tax beaks etc allowed farmers to invest inexpensive automated machinery for crop picking, then industry would create the necessary machines. Its not that industry can't produce automated picking machines, rather that they know farmers wouldnt buy them and would continue tobleat about lack of cheap foreign workers unless they were given incentives.

This is nonsense. Either automation is cheaper than migrant labour or it isn't.

 

[najaB]

This is nonsense. Either automation is cheaper than migrant labour or it isn't.

I am guessing that "inexpensive automated machinery" is supposed to be "in expensive automated machinery".

 

[Ivor]

Do we think now a law re running a minimum service on strike days will actually happen to any great degree?

To maintain some sort of living I’ve previously booked the odd hotel on strike days as can’t return home &/or get to London & now upcoming strike days I’ll be in a mess once more, I know obviously I’m not alone in this.

Again I’ve booked advanced tickets as considerably cheaper & one hotel but this is now stressing me out relating to costs & loss of earnings when can’t get to location.

On top of which I see Tube & underground strike action on 10th Nov too.

Any feedback from TOC/Union Members appreciated who will have an insight.


EDIT: IGNORE ME I SEE ON GOV WEB SITE IT WILL COME INTO EFFECT 2023

 

[Thirteen]

The Bill only had its first reading two weeks ago and normally it takes ages before it becomes law. The 2016 Trade Union Law took months to go from first reading to royal assent. The earliest it could into effect is mid to late 2023.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder what proportion of the NR subsidy went to large enhancements such as Crossrail etc.

Crossrail was largely accounted for outside the DfT rail budget.

The large enhancements (above £200m total cost) currently progressing from the NR enhancements budget are:

1) Transpennine Upgrade
2) MML electrification
3) EWR
4) ECML Upgrade (last few bits)
5) err, that’s it.

 

[yorksrob]

Crossrail was largely accounted for outside the DfT rail budget.

The large enhancements (above £200m total cost) currently progressing from the NR enhancements budget are:

1) Transpennine Upgrade
2) MML electrification
3) EWR
4) ECML Upgrade (last few bits)
5) err, that’s it.

Difficult one as I'm quite keen on these.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you think current level of strikes is bad , wait till train crew start “working to the rule “ and stop doing overtime .
You / public may somehow get to work but will you be able to come back ?

Is that come back the same day or come back ever ?.

I think Avanti shows how dysfunctional the railways have got and this is covered by your first sentence. And it is clear most people in the UK do not understand why. Earlier today I watched the BBC parliamentary channel where the transport minister was getting a grilling over Avanti - it was obvious from the questions that other MPs did not see this as a long term problem and thought outing Avanti would instantly solve the problem.

Do you work in IT by any chance? because I think that is the main industry that isn't unionised where workers do genuinely have the option of negotiating individually. In many industries, including universities, the royal mail, the civil service and the railways this simply isn't true; in those industries we need unions. If, in the future, there is an excess of IT wrkers I suspect that industry will also change to make individual negotiation harder/impossible.

I agree the railways need to do more to encourage passengers to return, but the main problems I see are caused by staff shortages (e.g. Avanti), and teasury interference (making adaptations to the expected new passenger flows much harder). In addition, the DfT effectively preventing negotiations with the unions is genuinely making everything worse, not better

Part of it is that things like the Avanti mess are much more impactful on passengers than the strikes to be honest

I don't think this is the best place to talk about tax policy in detail, but in short, I read somewhere that while the headline corporation tax was reduced in the UK, the actual rate paid was about the same, as the government simultaneously removed tax rebates for investment. I was proposing to (fully or partially) reverse this to promote investment in the U in a revenue-neutral manner, to increase productivity.

It is true that it is hard to raise productivity, but that doesn't mean it's impossible; more passengers per train is one route, another is fewer staff per train. Which is more realistic will depend on the locality. And we don't necesarily have to raise productivity on every line, if the average productivity goes up, that would be a start.

This isn't true, before covid many TOCs, including those that didn't run truly rammed very often (such as LNER), returned premiums to government.

I worked in IT. It has since the turn of the century been less lucrative. I ended up leaving as my skills were out of date and demand generally was waning.

I agree, the problems at Avanti are an indicator of the problems the railways have and are worse than strikes. Strikes also show that problem. Both are symptoms of an out of date approach to doing things.

But the incredibley large reliance on rest day working leaves me dumb founded. A problem of that size surely did not occur overnight (or during Covid). So does it mean Avantis predecessors (Virgin) were also not keeping a healthy pool of drivers ?. I guess what has changed is Avanto have put their foot in it trying to get other efficiencies and the house of cards has inevitably collapsed.

Crossrail was largely accounted for outside the DfT rail budget.

The large enhancements (above £200m total cost) currently progressing from the NR enhancements budget are:

1) Transpennine Upgrade
2) MML electrification
3) EWR
4) ECML Upgrade (last few bits)
5) err, that’s it.

Only four targets for decently large cuts to enhancements !. And I want all of those enhancements to happen !. Plus the extra platform at East Croydon (I guess I can dream on).

 

[Bald Rick]

Only four targets for decently large cuts to enhancements !. And I want all of those enhancements to happen !. Plus the extra platform at East Croydon (I guess I can dream on).

Only 2 really, as the ECML work is nearly finished now (Kings Cross, Werrington, Power supplies, etc) and EWR is largely built or contracted.

 

[najaB]

But the incredibley large reliance on rest day working leaves me dumb founded. A problem of that size surely did not occur overnight (or during Covid). So does it mean Avantis predecessors (Virgin) were also not keeping a healthy pool of drivers ?

I'm not in the industry, but the impression I have received is that while Virgin also depending on rest day working, they were more flexible and consultative in their approach, so the drivers felt that they were being treated with respect.

Apparently that went out the door when the new management came in, and they are much more confrontational and dictatorial and have lost the drivers' goodwill as a result.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not in the industry, but the impression I have received is that while Virgin also depending on rest day working, they were more flexible and consultative in their approach, so the drivers felt that they were being treated with respect.

Apparently that went out the door when the new management came in, and they are much more confrontational and dictatorial and have lost the drivers' goodwill as a result.

In my opinion I think Avanti will be a Rest Day free operation from now on, and most other operators will follow suit in the next year or so.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm not in the industry, but the impression I have received is that while Virgin also depending on rest day working, they were more flexible and consultative in their approach, so the drivers felt that they were being treated with respect.

Apparently that went out the door when the new management came in, and they are much more confrontational and dictatorial and have lost the drivers' goodwill as a result.

I feel that is correct. I have personally seen how varied management styles can be.

In my opinion I think Avanti will be a Rest Day free operation from now on, and most other operators will follow suit in the next year or so.

I think that will be the trend and it is just a matter of how long it takes and how many kerfuffles there are on the way at other TOCs. As well as training the appropriate number of staff I fear it will also be achieved by service reductions happening as a result of lower poet Covid loadings.

 

[Annetts key]

Given the costs of both employing more staff, plus the cost of training, if the railways do make any significant move away from using overtime working, yes, it will be just like Network Rail’s solution: cuts.

So overall it will be reductions to services (trains and other services such as the number of ticket offices/staffed stations) and reductions of infrastructure and rolling stock maintenance.

Also expect even more disruption to services in the event of train or infrastructure failures.

Unfortunately I think the mainland U.K. railways are heading down the road called ‘going backwards’.

 

[najaB]

Unfortunately I think the mainland U.K. railways are heading down the road called ‘going backwards’.

Either that or the government accepts that the railway is infrastructure just like roads. I don't ever hear calls for roads to 'balance their budget'.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Either that or the government accepts that the railway is infrastructure just like roads. I don't ever hear calls for roads to 'balance their budget'.

You are right and, unfortunately, the roads are used by a larger proportion of the population than rail. Roads are not viewed the same way by joe public and the roads don't have strikes.

Even if i have been totally stuffed by roadworks and the vague diversions I have never had to leave the comfort of my car (or coach) for a replacement bus !.

These are weakness rail has to recognise and reduce the impact of. Further more rail needs to build on its strengths. You can manage with less staff per passenger than a coach needs in the many cases where a train carries more passengers / seats. Incidentally - who ever heard of standing on a coach or plane !.

 

[najaB]

Incidentally - who ever heard of standing on a coach or plane !.

Shhh! Don't give Ryanair/EasyJet any ideas!

 

[APT618S]

Either that or the government accepts that the railway is infrastructure just like roads. I don't ever hear calls for roads to 'balance their budget'.

Public sector road expenditure approx £12bn.

UK road spending 2023 | Statista

Public sector spending on roads in the United Kingdom was over 11.13 billion British pounds in 2022/23, a slight decrease when compared with the previous year.

www.statista.com

Road taxation raises approx £35bn.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/153/transport-committee/news/160791/road-pricing-act-now-to-avoid-35-billion-fiscal-black-hole-urge-mps/

Healthy profit for the government.

 

[najaB]

Road taxation raises approx £35bn.

That's not what that source says.

 

[Trainbike46]

Shhh! Don't give Ryanair/EasyJet any ideas!

ryanair had that idea already! But then the pesky red tape got in the way

 

[APT618S]

That's not what that source says.

Fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35 billion a year of lost revenue

www.carwow.co.uk

I assumed it was the offical source of the above article.
£28bn fuel duty,
£7bn Vehicle Excise Duty (VED).

 

[najaB]

Fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35 billion a year of lost revenue

www.carwow.co.uk

I assumed it was the offical source of the above article.
£28bn fuel duty,
£7bn Vehicle Excise Duty (VED).

So only £7B of that is (arguably) road pricing. Fuel duty isn't exclusively paid by road users.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fuel duty isn't exclusively paid by road users.

nearly all of it is though!

as is the VAT on the fuel duty.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Shhh! Don't give Ryanair/EasyJet any ideas!

I once heard that on Aeroflot domestic flights anyone standing must sit on the floor during take off and landing. Might be true as they were still allowing smoking on international flights long after everyone else had stopped !.

 

[Annetts key]

Oh dear, this topic has badly derailed!

Extra passengers standing on aircraft may overload it.

Discussion of taxes really need there own topic (we may get a little taxing ).

As to strikes on roads, it is possible, on toll roads. And you may have to get out of your car if a division includes a ferry and they don’t allow you to stay in your car.

 

[Trainbike46]

Oh dear, this topic has badly derailed!

Sorry for contributing to that problem!

Extra passengers standing on aircraft may overload it.

That's why we need some red tape!

As to strikes on roads, it is possible, on toll roads. And you may have to get out of your car if a division includes a ferry and they don’t allow you to stay in your car.

In addition to strikes on ferries which could affect road users, strikes by bridge and tunnel operators could lead to those being closed.

Maybe more realistically, in some countries police have closed roads on a large scale as part of their strike action.

Slightly back on topic, rail strikes aren't great for anyone involved. Which is why conversations need to happen between the unions, the TOCs and, where relevant, the government, so the DfT needs to stop with their current policy of preventing negotiations at all. The proposed law will limit people's democratic rights, without actually solving any problems, and is therefore a bad idea.

In my experience, strikes aren't the big driver of unreliability this year, staff shortages, such as on Avanti, are. This is probably why the media has focused less on the strikes, instead talking about the Avanti (and others) mess

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is why conversations need to happen between the unions, the TOCs and, where relevant, the government, so the DfT needs to stop with their current policy of preventing negotiations at all.

The conversations / negotiations have been happening all year.

 

[Trainbike46]

The conversations / negotiations have been happening all year.

That's good to hear. Most posts on this forum so far have suggested that the DfT effectively prevented negotiations happening, and the fact that the non-DfT TOCs seem to have had fewer strikes and disputes strengthened that impression