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Derailment near Carlisle - 19/10/2022 - 1715 Clitheroe Castle Cement Gb to Carlisle N.Y. (6C00)

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TPO

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As the number of staff working lineside continues to fall, there are even less ears and eyes around to hear or see any problems. So the most obvious way forward is for either more lineside automated detection systems, or for trains to have automated detection systems fitted on board.

Unless anyone can think of any other method?

The next question is of course, given the limited amount of money available, will the railways manage to install any equipment before something similar happens again?

We also have "WILD" devices (wheel impact load detectors- proprietary terms WheelChex or GOTCHA)...... and yes more WORKING devices would be great........

Stuck wheel monitoring? Is that a thing then?

If so, I assume it's similar in some way to HABDs which are commonplace around the UK rail network and would identify freight trains with issues as well as passenger trains.

The WILD will pick up a "stuck" wheel quite quickly due to the hammer-blow from wheel flats. The WILDS can even pick up uneven loading of wagons......... and other sensors are available......

I talked about how they worked briefly in an earlier post here



In more detail:

There are multiple wheel sensors mounted on the rail to detect the exact position of a wheel, and hence the position of the axle box. This tells the system when the sensor is actually “looking” at the axle box and the correct part of the axle box. The system can also work out the speed, direction and length of the train. With some types of HABD, it can also work out the type of vehicle, hence may be able to work out which type of axle box bearings it’s looking at.

The sensors are mounted in the “four foot” or on the rail. They are VERY carefully aligned to aim for the axle boxes of a normal train.

The sensors themselves do not emit any light of any type. Instead they are sensitive to infrared radiation (light not any other meaning). The resulting tiny electrical signal from the sensors is amplified and then compared to reference values. If the level goes outside the appropriate level, the system sends an alarm signal to the monitoring point (normally a signal box / PSB / signalling centre etc.).

Dragging brakes can be detected by some HABD systems. Dragging wheel / hot wheel detection is possible, but is not specified for Network Rail HABD installations.

The number/mix of WILD and HABD and the siting is important, but what is also really important is Network Rail ensuring that all of those already fitted are all working reliably all the time. Just look at the NOC to see the list of HABD/WILD installations which are off line, usually waiting for components. The list is getting shorter (in part due to the freight sector challenging Network Rail to fix them), but it's still too long.

As well as the WILD/HABDs all working reliably, the data then needs to rapidly get to where it can be actioned quickly. Not all activations are a problem with the wheels/brakes, and the sooner the genuine wheel/brake issues can be identified the better. (It is not realistic to just immediately stop and withdraw everything that activates the detectors "just in case").

Another issue has been the calibration of the WILDs, I am reliably informed that in some areas the calibration had previously relied on the regular passage of HST/Mark 3 stock, so with new trains coming in and replacing that stock, new calibration routines have been required.

There's a whole collaborative project (under RSSB oversight) going on at the moment to look at these things- Condition of Freight Vehicles on the Network- and already some project findings are being implemented. Another programme is the fitment of RFID tags to wagons which allows the WILD or HABD to reliably ping back which wagon is effected when a WILD/HABD is triggered (much more accutate and simpler that counting axles in the train). This is important as (for example) when a train is stopped after a HABD activation, the use of temple sticks to check the axlebox temperature is much more reliable if the Driver gets to the correct wagon within 5-10 minutes of being stopped.

There's also other detection systems being looked at, such as acoustic detection. Thanks in part to pressure from the ORR and RAIB, we finally appear to have moved on from the historical attitude of Network Rail a few years ago in some areas of "if you want acoustic detection you can pay for fitment as you're the one who will benefit from saving delay minutes." (That was a real response by the way when a passenger operator mooted the idea of installing acoustic monitoring to check on axle bearing condition. Like I said, a few years ago.) NR these days are working collaboratively in the CFVN project which also includes all of the freight sector plus ECMs/wagon owners and progress is being made. The project is also looking in detail at causal factors such as human factors in preparation and maintenance of wagons.

I accept that todays H&S requirements means the old approach of getting the railway open as priority over safety means it will take longer although three weeks on and the vehicles still being there is really pushing the limits - Ainsborough have had the call off contract for nearly ten years and are experts in this sort of situation with road cranes. My point though was RAIB were in and out of there very quickly and have indicated the wagon wheelset is root cause. I don't know whether its a handbrake left on or something more involved so we will have to wait RAIBs report but my point is the industry needs to be far more proactive to prevent these sort of incidents given the time it now takes to recover from such events. So i do hope the recommendations are fully implemented and not sat on like many previous ones have been.

I don't think it would help anyone if the crane lifting the wagons out of the river toppled over into it, toppling your crane over during a lift is a really expensive way of examining the underside...... Lifting heavy stuff with big cranes also requires specialist insurance and that is a big driver of good behaviour.

Even in the "good old days" they would face similar issues if they had been lifting the modern heavier wagons (8-wheel bogie wagon vice small 4-wheeled wagon). There's only so many big cranes available in the UK (or world for the VERY big ones) and they take time to set up and rig, as it is they are lucky not to have needed to construct a road into the site. There are some heavy-lift rail cranes about (which have greater capacity than old breakdown cranes) and they are used for recovery when appropriate- that they are not used here would be because they cannot do the work without risk of topple over. I shudder to think how much the big crawler crane cost, usually those big cranes are booked up on jobs months (even years) in advance.

What they might have been more willing to do in the "old days" is cut up the wagons in situ (or even leave it there) spilling the cargo out and polluting the river for years. Personally I see it as positive progress that we no longer deem it OK to pollute our watercourses like that, but as ever views may vary.

So far as the wagon incident causes goes, those of us in the industry who are close to this sort of thing already have a good handle on what it was NOT caused by. It's a credit to the RSSB-led rail freight industry safety groups that there is a level of maturity and a level of (private) preliminary information sharing at early stage following any significant incident so the rest of us can start learning really quickly (those who attend such groups on behalf of their employer will know this; those who don't do not need to know the details of the discussions, and can wait for the RAIB report to be issued).

TPO
 
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yoyothehobo

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Another problem with big cranes is you have to design the crane pad/working platform. It wouldnt be the first time if an outrigger punched through some alluvium and the whole show came toppling over.
 

swt_passenger

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Another problem with big cranes is you have to design the crane pad/working platform. It wouldnt be the first time if an outrigger punched through some alluvium and the whole show came toppling over.
Presumably they’d do some fairly detailed ground investigations with cored samples and the like before starting to design the piled platform. All has to be done thoroughly and takes time.
 

yoyothehobo

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Presumably they’d do some fairly detailed ground investigations with cored samples and the like before starting to design the piled platform. All has to be done thoroughly and takes time.
Indeed it does, especially if you have to do lab testing of the material.
 

Ediswan

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I shudder to think how much the big crawler crane cost, usually those big cranes are booked up on jobs months (even years) in advance.
Several people have mentioned a crawler crane. The network Rail photos show a truck crane, with outriggers. This matches the Terex TC 2800-1 in Ainscough's current fleet list. Looking at Google, Ainscough have clearly also operated a CC 2800-1, which is a crawler crane. Two close relatives, mounted on different bases. Maybe with right facilities one can be converted to the other.

Hopefully there is crane expert here somewhere ...
 

Carlisle

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It will be a combination of multiple factors, not all of which will apply to every incident.
Thanks for the information, I guess the YouTube footage of recovering the class 56 near Haywards Heath in 1988 illustrate rightly or wrongly how it used to be done .
 

swt_passenger

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Several people have mentioned a crawler crane. The network Rail photos show a truck crane, with outriggers. This matches the Terex TC 2800-1 in Ainscough's current fleet list. Looking at Google, Ainscough have clearly also operated a CC 2800-1, which is a crawler crane. Two close relatives, mounted on different bases. Maybe with right facilities one can be converted to the other.

Hopefully there is crane expert here somewhere ...
I think you’re right, I may have clouded the picture by reference to the example on the Ainscough website. But they do look very similar from the operating cab level upwards…
 

AndyPJG

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Not sure if this has been posted, but some latest footage from a drone.
From that article it appears that scour around the bridge foundations has occurred due to the changed flow regime in the river from the upturned wagon; needs inspection and probable remedial works under the bridge.
 

Ediswan

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From that article it appears that scour around the bridge foundations has occurred due to the changed flow regime in the river from the upturned wagon; needs inspection and probable remedial works under the bridge.
The article makes no comment on the cause of the erosion. They could have discovered a pre-existing situation.
Secure bridge foundations eroded in the River Petteril with 100 tonnes of stone
 

66701GBRF

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Is that standard at GBRF or was he shooting his own video for his own purposes?

Its a new thing as of about a month or two ago. Not all 3rd party locations have yet given their agreement for staff to wear them but by the start of next year pretty much all GB shunters will be wearing them at most locations.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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So far as the wagon incident causes goes, those of us in the industry who are close to this sort of thing already have a good handle on what it was NOT caused by. It's a credit to the RSSB-led rail freight industry safety groups that there is a level of maturity and a level of (private) preliminary information sharing at early stage following any significant incident so the rest of us can start learning really quickly (those who attend such groups on behalf of their employer will know this; those who don't do not need to know the details of the discussions, and can wait for the RAIB report to be issued).
Is there no longer a requirement to issue urgent operating advice updates across the industry?
 

Ken X

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With regard to the time taken to undertake this recovery work, my previous employment as a crane surveyor has brought me an insight to this industry. The vast majority of the incidents and, unfortunately, fatalities I have had contact with, occurred during the access to, or build elements of the planned lift. I note that 16 piles of 13m depth have been installed indicating that the crane pad has been designed, planned and constructed from scratch. This has to happen before the crane assembly itself starts which may in itself take a few days. There are no lives being put at risk by the incident existing for a few days longer. To potentially risk a life by not proceeding to construct the crane in a controlled manner would seem to be counterproductive. For those seeking to rush an operation the Courts can be an uncomfortable place and I cannot recommend the experience.
 
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Northern have announced NO rail replacement buses between Carlisle and Haltwhistle this weekend, and a very limited service between Carlisle and Appleby.
 

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Hans

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Given the wind in North Cumbria at present, they’ll do well to get any lifting done tomorrow unless it drops right off!
Yes it certainly has been just a tad windy over the last couple of days and nights. Appears to be some small respite this weekend but picking up again next week. As you say I can imagine the weather is not great with the crane heights.
 

D Williams

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Not sure if this has been posted, but some latest footage from a drone.
Wouldn't it have been a lot less trouble to cut everything up on site into pieces that could be lifted by a much smaller crane? NR do appear to be very good at making every engineering job into a three act opera. Afterwards they'll tell everybody what clever people they are. All of the clever people left the railway industry years ago!
 

zwk500

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Wouldn't it have been a lot less trouble to cut everything up on site into pieces that could be lifted by a much smaller crane? NR do appear to be very good at making every engineering job into a three act opera. Afterwards they'll tell everybody what clever people they are.
Cutting up wagons that are lying at odd angles on a slippery bank above (or in) a fast-flowing river is not an easy job to do. Not to mention that there's still probably an appreciable amount of cement powder in the wagons, which would spill into the river. Finally, at least some of the wagons can probably be repaired and returned to traffic, and new wagons to replace them would be expensive.
All of the clever people left the railway industry years ago!
I think you'll find there's still a lot of clever people in the industry. Some of whom have been there 30+ years, other have come in since then.
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
Sorry to crash in, but I'm genuinely interested and can't be bothered to troll back pages and pages. What are they actually doing to to rescue the the train and reopen the route just in basic layman's terms? The locomotive is not a write off surely
 

sprite

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Sorry to crash in, but I'm genuinely interested and can't be bothered to troll back pages and pages. What are they actually doing to to rescue the the train and reopen the route just in basic layman's terms? The locomotive is not a write off surely
The locomotive was not damaged. It and the intact portion of the train before the derailed wagons left the site by rail.

There are several wagons that require as much of their content (cement powder) removing and then lifting out by crane.

Due to the distance from the base of the crane to the wagons, the crane needs to be capable of lifting a very large mass. This is due to the lever effect. To try this:
- Open a hinged, unsprung door half way
- Have a friend stand at the handle 'end' of the door
- Stand yourself at the hinge end at the opposite side of the door
- Try to push the door toward each other
- The person further from the pivot point (the hinge) has their force magnified making it easier for them.

This is why such a large crane is needed.
 

plugwash

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The WILD will pick up a "stuck" wheel quite quickly due to the hammer-blow from wheel flats.
Wouldn't there would only be impacts if the wheel had previously been stuck, but was now unstuck. If the wheel was still stuck then I would think there would be no impacts just a bunch of friction.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Another planet...
Wouldn't there would only be impacts if the wheel had previously been stuck, but was now unstuck. If the wheel was still stuck then I would think there would be no impacts just a bunch of friction.
I'm no expert, but if a wheel is dragging for any significant length of time, it will presumably develop a flat spot at the point in contact with the rail. If this wheel then becomes unstuck, the flat will then do more damage to the railhead, but if it stays stuck and continues to drag, the flat spot will get worse and generate more heat. Neither situation strikes me as benign if not detected.

Hopefully those who are experts can confirm or correct me on this?
 

Ken H

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There was a piece in Modern Railways some years back where they had steel hawsers to drag stuff up embankments. They attached it to the railway tracks then they sat a loco by the attachment to stop lateral movement. There were pulleys to give advantage. The pulling was done with 1 or more locos. Think they could use this to make wagons upright by passing the cable over the wagon and attach it to the chassis.
Someone here will remember this and fill in my hazy memory.
 

zwk500

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I'm no expert, but if a wheel is dragging for any significant length of time, it will presumably develop a flat spot at the point in contact with the rail. If this wheel then becomes unstuck, the flat will then do more damage to the railhead, but if it stays stuck and continues to drag, the flat spot will get worse and generate more heat. Neither situation strikes me as benign if not detected.

Hopefully those who are experts can confirm or correct me on this?
I'm far from an expert but believe you are correct in your understanding. The issue is detecting a stuck wheel, as a WILD won't pick up any hammer blow and a HABD isn't looking at the wheel/rail contact.
Adding an additional sensor to a HABD to check the contact patch is possible, in theory.
 

Annetts key

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I'm far from an expert but believe you are correct in your understanding. The issue is detecting a stuck wheel, as a WILD won't pick up any hammer blow and a HABD isn't looking at the wheel/rail contact.
Adding an additional sensor to a HABD to check the contact patch is possible, in theory.
Adding additional sensors (one per rail) to a HABD to detect a stuck wheel / dragging wheel is possible. It’s technology used elsewhere. However, it’s not specified for existing Network Rail HABD installations.
 
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