RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[NorthernSpirit]

I get the feeling there is an element of “stick finger up at government”. Pretty much everyone I know or converse with is absolutely and totally sick of this government and their antics. I suspect that for some people who might on the fence over going out, the way this government has been carrying on is probably enough to make them decide to go out.

I am actually coming round to the idea that a general election isn’t such a bad idea after all.

No matter what government we have, regardless of the colour the rosette is, each govenment will be getting up with all sorts of antics - I can and do see a future govenment performing a Battle of Orgreave with rail workers. I still haven't forgotten the claims made by the 2007-2010 government with kitkats, plastic bags, lightbulbs and duck houses.

If there is a general election might be an idea to vote for one of the smaller parties, as the main three are useless.

Better to be 'far left' than 'far right'

Both are as bad as each other.

 

[3rd rail land]

So if the extra strikes go ahead that stuffs up my plans to get from London - Edinburgh on the 27th December using the 07:30 service. As I have bought an off peak single I guess I can just get a later train but it rather mucks up my plans!

I realise the idea is for this particular strike to disrupt the Xmas engineering works but I'm one of the few poor sods that'll be caught up in this. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if I need to make alternate travel arrangements or not.

 

[Omnishambles]

Not sure if it has been posted upthread (this has moved along quickly!) but the TSSA have withdrawn all action on NR, is putting the deal to members, with a recommendation to accept.

So what does the TSSA see that the RMT doesn’t? (Or vice versa)?

My assumption would be something along the lines of no compulsory redundancies to 2025 on the TSSA offer not being offered to RMT possibly, given NR want large efficiencies in maintenance workings ?

 

[nedchester]

This rather misses the point that enough money has likely already been tabled to end this dispute, if not for some or the proposed reforms, many of which are mostly ideological and won’t result in many quick wins in terms of savings, if any.



I think Sundays inside is looking more like committed Sundays for those with them currently outside (no surprise there as it’s cheaper!).

Some of the proposed reforms are inevitable eg ticket office closures
and I think the unions realise this, to be fair. Bringing across the board DOO into the mix when it still isn’t even feasible in many places, and when it hasn’t been broached with ASLEF, seems more like an attempt to make an “offer” that they knew would be rejected.

I agree with most of that but do think more DOO will happen especially as it is quite widespread on a number of routes currently.

Sundays inside should be the way forward (and I understand the cost implications)

I do worry that things are about to get very nasty of this isn’t sorted very soon.

 

[Bald Rick]

My assumption would be something along the lines of no compulsory redundancies to 2025 on the TSSA offer not being offered to RMT possibly, given NR want large efficiencies in maintenance workings ?

It’s exactly the same deal (it has to be).

 

[LowLevel]

I'm shocked - just heard a ridiculously well balanced description of the matter from Robert Peston on ITV News. Perhaps the journalists are starting to get a bit of a handle on what is occurring.

 

[43096]

Some of the proposed reforms are inevitable eg ticket office closures
and I think the unions realise this, to be fair. Bringing across the board DOO into the mix when it still isn’t even feasible in many places, and when it hasn’t been broached with ASLEF, seems more like an attempt to make an “offer” that they knew would be rejected.

I suspect DOO is about having the flexibility to introduce it in future, if/when suitable stock is introduced on a given route.

 

[Retorus]

I'm booked on the 10:30 KGX-EDB on the 27th, wonder what the odds of that running are.

 

[bramling]

Do you think that a Labour government would somehow be able to find the money to pay double digit percentage increases, not just to railway workers, but to the NHS, teachers, and all the other public sector workers contemplating strike action?

The Truss / Kwarteng mini-budget's failure showed there was little scope for increasing borrowing beyond where we are already, so any such pay increases can only be funded by increasing taxes. "Soaking the rich" doesn't produce enough revenue, and I suspect business tax receipts are dropping as a result of bankruptcies, recession, and shopping diverting to tax-dodging multinationals.

The reality is that a toxic combination of Brexit, Covid and Putin's war on Ukraine have damaged our economy to the extent that we are all, on average, worse off than three years ago, and there's very little that any government, or any of us, can do about it.

In which case, this government should fall on its sword and admit that it has screwed up, rather than actively seeking to stir up trouble across the public sector. Instead, we see the person who was chancellor all through the Covid response receive the promotion he always craved - hardly sends out a good message. Meanwhile the Conservative party can’t even seem to properly dispense with the failure that is Boris Johnson, it still feels like he’s itching to make a return.

At least if the government were to come clean and admit the Covid response has been a fiasco, it would make it pretty much untenable to ever contemplate repeating it.

I still haven’t forgotten the Truss PMQs where striking rail staff were mentioned something like four times. Sheer arrogance after the shambles she had just presided over.

 

[dk1]

I'm booked on the 10:30 KGX-EDB on the 27th, wonder what the odds of that running are.

Probs okay if not I’m sure they’ll be something you can jump aboard.

 

[Sleepy]

I'm booked on the 10:30 KGX-EDB on the 27th, wonder what the odds of that running are.

Same as before: subject to LNER crewing it.

 

[Alex1971]

As an NR employee & RMT member who works in planning this could cause quite a split in opinion where I am based.. I know a fair few colleagues who are at the point where they would accept the revised deal because they are worried that by continuing to strike any eventual pay deal will prove worthless as we would have lost more than we have gained, in the short term anyway.

Also, the NEC dropping the overtime ban will rile some up as we have seen overtime being thrown around to some track based colleagues just to allow them to claw back money they have lost due to striking, while us office based staff just have to suck it up. Personally, I get why colleagues would goble up overtime to cover loss of pay, but I can understand why some would and will get the hump about it, which is why I don't know if I will vote to accept or not.

I do think maintenance & operations should have separate pay negotiations going forward.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do think maintenance & operations should have separate pay negotiations going forward.

The union will not accept that.

 

[VC00]

Well there would only be one through service, the up Highland Chieftain at 0755. I’d say there’s a 50% chance it will run - other strikes may yet be called for that date (by ASLEF, for example), and there may be amendments to Christmas Eve services because of the RMT strike that evening.

Good chance but with LNERs industrial relations expect a change of train in Edinburgh to avoid disappointment.

Thanks. I assume if I book an advance on the Chieftain and arrive later than scheduled due to strikes I should get DR?

 

[dk1]

Thanks. I assume if I book an advance on the Chieftain and arrive later than scheduled due to strikes I should get DR?

I’d expect so but no expert as DR is something that never affects me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks. I assume if I book an advance on the Chieftain and arrive later than scheduled due to strikes I should get DR?

Yes, but also be prepared for the train to be cancelled in advance and be given your money back.

 

[Alex1971]

The union will not accept that.

You are probably correct, but we have a situation where some staff can cover their loses and others can't, but the one who can't are striking so the ones who can hopefully don't get shafted with their T&C's.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. I assume if I book an advance on the Chieftain and arrive later than scheduled due to strikes I should get DR?

In theory yes, but there is the so-called 10pm "timetable of the day" concept that threatens to withdraw your entitlement to Delay Repay, though the legality of this clause is disputed (as debated on other forum threads). I think you would be entitled to it, but others may have a different view. Also, this is assuming alternative trains do run.

If you do book, you can't really lose out as if the train is cancelled (or retimed), you are entitled to a refund if you choose not to travel.

 

[brad465]

It’s exactly the same deal (it has to be).

If the TSSA accept this deal, does this mean the RMT will effectively be forced to as well, given Network Rail can essentially say, "if it's good for them, it's good for you"?

In which case, this government should fall on its sword and admit that it has screwed up, rather than actively seeking to stir up trouble across the public sector. Instead, we see the person who was chancellor all through the Covid response receive the promotion he always craved - hardly sends out a good message. Meanwhile the Conservative party can’t even seem to properly dispense with the failure that is Boris Johnson, it still feels like he’s itching to make a return.

At least if the government were to come clean and admit the Covid response has been a fiasco, it would make it pretty much untenable to ever contemplate repeating it.

I still haven’t forgotten the Truss PMQs where striking rail staff were mentioned something like four times. Sheer arrogance after the shambles she had just presided over.

The impression I and some others have been getting is Sunak doesn't seem to be up for doing much in general, rather than just for resolving strike action. There are several theories for this, which include Sunak just wanting to be PM for his status as the first non-white PM to be in the history books (the money former PMs get can't be a motive as he and his wife already have far more than that will offer), or even just being able to state being a former PM. Another theory for the lack of action is he maybe resigned to losing the next election, so solving/delivering anything is either pointless and/or the aim is to make life harder for an incoming Labour Government. If this is the case then no strike action looks likely to be settled, whether in rail or other sectors.

What's also worth remembering is state pension and benefit claimants got an inflation-linked pay increase thanks to the last Budget, and many workers (inc. Scotrail and TfW) have settled and probably will settle for less, so for those to whom pay is the issue, the Government made a mistake in this clear example of double standards.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the TSSA accept this deal, does this mean the RMT will effectively be forced to as well, given Network Rail can essentially say, "if it's good for them, it's good for you"?

The deal isn’t done until all the unions accept it. Although it could be imposed.

 

[geoffk]

This rather misses the point that enough money has likely already been tabled to end this dispute, if not for some or the proposed reforms, many of which are mostly ideological and won’t result in many quick wins in terms of savings, if any.



I think Sundays inside is looking more like committed Sundays for those with them currently outside (no surprise there as it’s cheaper!).

Some of the proposed reforms are inevitable eg ticket office closures
and I think the unions realise this, to be fair. Bringing across the board DOO into the mix when it still isn’t even feasible in many places, and when it hasn’t been broached with ASLEF, seems more like an attempt to make an “offer” that they knew would be rejected.

Is there a proposal to reduce the numbers of train despatchers or even remove them altogether? It's been mentioned elsewhere that European railways don't generally have them. What scope would there be for retraining them for other roles?

 

[Sleepy]

I'm shocked - just heard a ridiculously well balanced description of the matter from Robert Peston on ITV News. Perhaps the journalists are starting to get a bit of a handle on what is occurring.

Yep even Peston could see the RDG offer was poor - government just playing the game.

 

[DanNCL]

Yep even Peston could see the RDG offer was poor - government just playing the game.

So can Mark Harper, who clarified to Peston that his disappointment with the offer not being warmly welcomed only applied to the Network Rail offer!

I'm shocked - just heard a ridiculously well balanced description of the matter from Robert Peston on ITV News. Perhaps the journalists are starting to get a bit of a handle on what is occurring.

I’ve been pleasantly surprised by quite a bit of the output from Robert Peston on this over the last few days.

 

[whoosh]

I suspect DOO is about having the flexibility to introduce it in future, if/when suitable stock is introduced on a given route.

This is the big one the government want pushed through.

The railway was gradually getting more and more passengers coming back after Covid, but goading the unions into striking by refusing the TOCs to have any pay talks at all, has dampened the demand as service has become unreliable. The government can live with this as making rubbish offers to start with will eventually grind everyone down, and when it pushes through the changes it wants with it's narrative of, "no-one commutes anymore," and, "passenger numbers are down," it can point to the inevitable suppressed demand resurging when it finally gets sorted out one way or another, claim credit for the changes it made causing the resurgence, and find itself with buoyant passenger numbers and a cheaper (the labour part at least) railway to run.

 

[Bevan Price]

A theoretical question (and I agree the offers are not very good).
What happens if the Government says "No More Money". Do whatever you like for as long as you want ?

 

[ComUtoR]

A theoretical question (and I agree the offers are not very good).
What happens if the Government says "No More Money". Do whatever you like for as long as you want ?

Stagnation. Proposals like Sunday working need to be introduced. No agreement just hurts both sides and ultimately the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagnation. Proposals like Sunday working need to be introduced. No agreement just hurts both sides and ultimately the passenger.

Sundays absolutely need sorting, and most booking offices will close whether the RMT likes it or not. But throwing DOO in just poisoned it.

 

[bramling]

A theoretical question (and I agree the offers are not very good).
What happens if the Government says "No More Money". Do whatever you like for as long as you want ?

The government might get away with that if confined to the rail industry, but I’m not so sure if would work across the whole public sector.

 

[baz962]

Standard daily mail comment here (I couldn’t resist but have a look):



What an eloquent chap!

It strikes me even the knuckle draggers on DM’s BTL are less anti union than they usually are. Luckily Ginge and Whinge have released another trailer so perhaps they’re distracted!

One green and one red button huh. That's the engine start and stop, what about the other few dozen. Why discriminate against the blue/yellow/white buttons.

 

[thelongestroad]

As a fairly politicaly middle of field and level headed RMT member in a guard grade I know there needs to be a level of compromise on both sides. Personally payrise wise 4+4 would be an adequate for me. I know there needs to be modernisation in the railway especially with Sundays etc - this is something I believe most people would work with the TOCs with and find ways to save money or make the operation slicker.

However being sent that 10 bullet point list of demands was not the way to do it. Treat us with respect and open a dialogue. Most of us want to work with "them" and not against them.