Parts of 7027 Thornbury Castle to be used for new build 47XX.

[Trainlog]

But we will still be one Castle less (so much for preservation) and as they only want the boiler,what happens to the frames!

The Night owl society have plans for the frames to be used as a new build star class locomotive.
source https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/0...tle-into-star-class-as-petition-launched.html

 

[Ashley Hill]

The Night owl society have plans for the frames to be used as a new build star class locomotive.
source https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/0...tle-into-star-class-as-petition-launched.html

Oh great,another replica!

 

[Gloster]

And will all these replicas be completed? The enthusiastic volunteers who started the project will gradually become less active (or fully dead) and the reduced numbers of new volunteers coming in will lead, at best, to a slowing of the project’s progress. Meanwhile the number of donors also fall away, so you can’t afford to get the loco professionally built. You have turned one complete near-runner into a large pile of bits of metal. Make do with what you have and stop dreaming.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I was quite upset when I first heard of this. I'd have loved to see Thornbury Castle finally return to steam, but now it seems that it's going to be cut up to create an inaccurate replica of a 47xx and a new Star, a class which we already have one of and if there was enough money and determination could probably returned to steam.

I have mixed feelings on new builds as a whole. I'm of the opinion that preservationists should focus on restoring original engines. The clue is in the word- "preservation". Decades later there are still a large amount of ex- Barry locos still to be restored, and not just small engines, prestigious named express engines like Thornbury Castle and the many Bulleid Pacifics still waiting to be returned to steam.

It's all well and good having a new Patriot or Clan or 47xx, but I feel like we should be prioritising restoring genuine artefacts, and new builds definitely should not be built at the cost of actual engines from the time, especially to create one with the wrong boiler.

 

[Trainlog]

I was quite upset when I first heard of this. I'd have loved to see Thornbury Castle finally return to steam, but now it seems that it's going to be cut up to create an inaccurate replica of a 47xx and a new Star, a class which we already have one of and if there was enough money and determination could probably returned to steam.

I have mixed feelings on new builds as a whole. I'm of the opinion that preservationists should focus on restoring original engines. The clue is in the word- "preservation". Decades later there are still a large amount of ex- Barry locos still to be restored, and not just small engines, prestigious named express engines like Thornbury Castle and the many Bulleid Pacifics still waiting to be returned to steam.

It's all well and good having a new Patriot or Clan or 47xx, but I feel like we should be prioritising restoring genuine artefacts, and new builds definitely should not be built at the cost of actual engines from the time, especially to create one with the wrong boiler.

I honestly couldn't agree more on this. There are many ex Barry scrapyard locos left that would be of great use to heritage railways and for the mainline. Despite the fact there are many Bullied pacifics that have made it to the 21st Century, they still bring crowds of enthusiasts to go and see them, down here in the Southeast many enthusiasts might groan if they hear its Clan line again on a on a railtour, but they still admit its a good engine and will go out to see it at their local station. But yet many of the preserved Merchant navy classes haven't steamed in preservation yet, though some are being restored atm.

As for other locos in such conditions there are many Br standards, GWR, SR, and LMS locos that once restored from scrapyard condition will be of good use to its owner or host railway. (i didn't include LNER as there isn't many unrestored locos from this company left.)

 

[Harvester]

As for other locos in such conditions there are many Br standards, GWR, SR, and LMS locos that once restored from scrapyard condition will be of good use to its owner or host railway. (i didn't include LNER as there isn't many unrestored locos from this company left.)

I can only think of B1 61264 (and perhaps J21 65033) of the preserved LNER locos, that were ever in scrapyard condition. The other surviving examples went directly into preservation, or were sold in reasonable condition, after withdrawal from BR service.

 

[TheEdge]

I was quite upset when I first heard of this. I'd have loved to see Thornbury Castle finally return to steam, but now it seems that it's going to be cut up to create an inaccurate replica of a 47xx and a new Star, a class which we already have one of and if there was enough money and determination could probably returned to steam.

By that logic we have 8 Castles, 5 of which are operational, 4 of which either are or are intended to be mainline operational. Lode Star is very much non operational and never will be. So it seems a good use of parts to restore one lost class and one that's stuffed and mounted.

I have mixed feelings on new builds as a whole. I'm of the opinion that preservationists should focus on restoring original engines. The clue is in the word- "preservation". Decades later there are still a large amount of ex- Barry locos still to be restored, and not just small engines, prestigious named express engines like Thornbury Castle and the many Bulleid Pacifics still waiting to be returned to steam.

But what's more value? There are 31 Bullied Pacifics preserved, 21 of them have steamed in preservation. 50 odd years after they've been withdrawn is it really going to make any difference if any of those 10 are anything more than Christmas trees for the rest? No, not really. The GWR is not underrepresented in preservation by any stretch, there are very few classes that survived to BR that didn't get at least one example saved, especially when you compare it to others in the Big 4. There are more Castles than there are LNER or LMS Pacifics of all classes. (I'm disregarding Mallard, Dominion of Canada and Dwight D Eisenhower in that count, they are not really preserved in the normal fashion). There are more mainline certifiable Castles than BR Pacifics. Loosing a single one isn't a massive crime against preservation.

It's all well and good having a new Patriot or Clan or 47xx, but I feel like we should be prioritising restoring genuine artefacts, and new builds definitely should not be built at the cost of actual engines from the time, especially to create one with the wrong boiler.

But having an example of lost locos filling in the gaps is, in my opinion, better than having another example of an already well represented class.

There are many ex Barry scrapyard locos left that would be of great use to heritage railways and for the mainline.

Such as? Outside of the Barry 10, which are obviously going the same way as 7027 might be.

Despite the fact there are many Bullied pacifics that have made it to the 21st Century, they still bring crowds of enthusiasts to go and see them, down here in the Southeast many enthusiasts might groan if they hear its Clan line again on a on a railtour, but they still admit its a good engine and will go out to see it at their local station. But yet many of the preserved Merchant navy classes haven't steamed in preservation yet, though some are being restored atm.

Mainline Merchant Navy's exists, and the argument that they'll be good for preserved lines is contradicting the argument that the 47xx is too heavy, but an MN is 12 tonnes heavier.

 

[D6968]

I was quite upset when I first heard of this. I'd have loved to see Thornbury Castle finally return to steam, but now it seems that it's going to be cut up to create an inaccurate replica of a 47xx and a new Star, a class which we already have one of and if there was enough money and determination could probably returned to steam.

I have mixed feelings on new builds as a whole. I'm of the opinion that preservationists should focus on restoring original engines. The clue is in the word- "preservation". Decades later there are still a large amount of ex- Barry locos still to be restored, and not just small engines, prestigious named express engines like Thornbury Castle and the many Bulleid Pacifics still waiting to be returned to steam.

It's all well and good having a new Patriot or Clan or 47xx, but I feel like we should be prioritising restoring genuine artefacts, and new builds definitely should not be built at the cost of actual engines from the time, especially to create one with the wrong boiler.

I honestly couldn't agree more on this. There are many ex Barry scrapyard locos left that would be of great use to heritage railways and for the mainline. Despite the fact there are many Bullied pacifics that have made it to the 21st Century, they still bring crowds of enthusiasts to go and see them, down here in the Southeast many enthusiasts might groan if they hear its Clan line again on a on a railtour, but they still admit its a good engine and will go out to see it at their local station. But yet many of the preserved Merchant navy classes haven't steamed in preservation yet, though some are being restored atm.

As for other locos in such conditions there are many Br standards, GWR, SR, and LMS locos that once restored from scrapyard condition will be of good use to its owner or host railway. (i didn't include LNER as there isn't many unrestored locos from this company left.)

You can’t tell people what they should spend their hard earned cash on though can you? Another appeal for most things Ex Western won’t make me put my hand in my pocket. New P2 or Baby Deltic… How much do want?

 

[Herefordian]

This doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not a fan of replica steam engines in the slightest. There's no history. It's certainly not preservation, either.

It's a shame the amount of time, effort and money which will go into this project couldn't be spent on returning this or another engine to steam instead.

However, it is for the owner to do as they wish.

I won't be in a rush to travel behind it.

 

[coradiafan2000]

You can’t tell people what they should spend their hard earned cash on though can you? Another appeal for most things Ex Western won’t make me put my hand in my pocket. New P2 or Baby Deltic… How much do want?

Obviously I can't, but I'm not just gonna shut up about it. People have a right to express their opinions on such things, they have every right to if it means a lot to them.

But having an example of lost locos filling in the gaps is, in my opinion, better than having another example of an already well represented class.

I'd feel a bit better about this particular project if
A. It was a 100% accurate recreation
B. It didn't come at the cost of another engine.

And will it really be worth it once it's complete? From what I've read on the National Preservation forums there's a lot of uncertainty about whether it could run on the mainline, or even some preserved lines. Even if it could, I can't see it generating as much as interest as Tornado does, or the Patriot and P2 will.

I'm concerned it'll end up like the rest of the engines at Didcot, running for a few years before it's boiler ticket expires and then sitting in the shed languishing for god knows how long, collecting dust with the rest of the engines it claims to cherish.

But what's more value? There are 31 Bullied Pacifics preserved, 21 of them have steamed in preservation. 50 odd years after they've been withdrawn is it really going to make any difference if any of those 10 are anything more than Christmas trees for the rest? No, not really. The GWR is not underrepresented in preservation by any stretch, there are very few classes that survived to BR that didn't get at least one example saved, especially when you compare it to others in the Big 4. There are more Castles than there are LNER or LMS Pacifics of all classes. (I'm disregarding Mallard, Dominion of Canada and Dwight D Eisenhower in that count, they are not really preserved in the normal fashion). There are more mainline certifiable Castles than BR Pacifics. Loosing a single one isn't a massive crime against preservation

I'm sorry but I simply disagree. I'd sooner see Blue Star, or Shaw Savill or General Steam Navigation return to steam than I would have a brand new and shiny engine. Because they've got history behind them. It's doing a disservice to the men who built them, drove and fired them, and the ones who worked hard to secure them for preservation.

 

[TheEdge]

And will it really be worth it once it's complete? From what I've read on the National Preservation forums there's a lot of uncertainty about whether it could run on the mainline, or even some preserved lines. Even if it could, I can't see it generating as much as interest as Tornado does, or the Patriot and P2 will.

A preserved line unable to handle a 47xx will be equally unable to handle any other large loco. It's not an excessively large engine. Again if the 47xx is unviable due to its weight then the P2 really is. It's pretty hard to declare one project you don't like as too heavy when supporting others much heavier.

I'm concerned it'll end up like the rest of the engines at Didcot, running for a few years before it's boiler ticket expires and then sitting in the shed languishing for god knows how long, collecting dust with the rest of the engines it claims to cherish.

That's going to be a recurring issue for steam locos regardless soon anyway.

I'm sorry but I simply disagree. I'd sooner see Blue Star, or Shaw Savill or General Steam Navigation return to steam than I would have a brand new and shiny engine. Because they've got history behind them. It's doing a disservice to the men who built them, drove and fired them, and the ones who worked hard to secure them for preservation.

So the men who built, drove and fired the Night Owls deserve the disservice because no one managed to save one at the time? The history and stories of the Bullieds can be told by the other 21 that steam. Having a few more adds nothing, they tell nothing more than those that already exist.

As to "secure them for preservation". At this point these locos have spent far longer rotting in a scrap condition than they ever did in service. There has been half a century for someone to come and restore them.

The 47xx adds to the story of our railways, it brings something new. It brings something quite unique. It brings something that another Castle, another Merchant Navy, another whatever just doesn't.

Do you have the same objection to 9351? Or the Grange and County projects?

 

[D6968]

Obviously I can't, but I'm not just gonna shut up about it. People have a right to express their opinions on such things, they have every right to if it means a lot to them.


I'd feel a bit better about this particular project if
A. It was a 100% accurate recreation
B. It didn't come at the cost of another engine.

And will it really be worth it once it's complete? From what I've read on the National Preservation forums there's a lot of uncertainty about whether it could run on the mainline, or even some preserved lines. Even if it could, I can't see it generating as much as interest as Tornado does, or the Patriot and P2 will.

I'm concerned it'll end up like the rest of the engines at Didcot, running for a few years before it's boiler ticket expires and then sitting in the shed languishing for god knows how long, collecting dust with the rest of the engines it claims to cherish.

I'm sorry but I simply disagree. I'd sooner see Blue Star, or Shaw Savill or General Steam Navigation return to steam than I would have a brand new and shiny engine. Because they've got history behind them. It's doing a disservice to the men who built them, drove and fired them, and the ones who worked hard to secure them for preservation.

As a mere youth of 38, I’ll be genuinely surprised if 35010 and and it’s smashed cylinder block ever steams in my lifetime, let’s nots forget it’s owners have a Black 5 we’re still yet to see in action after how many years of ownership?
I admire your sentiment, but as I say (and my partners in Marketing) please convince me to chuck my cash at loco x rather than loco y.
Going back to 7027 though I do agree what the GWS and its associated groups (there’s a fair old bit of confusion there) want to do with 7027 needs some serious questions being asked of the governance of their society.
This looks like almighty cock up.

 

[Bessie]

I'm concerned it'll end up like the rest of the engines at Didcot, running for a few years before it's boiler ticket expires and then sitting in the shed languishing for god knows how long, collecting dust with the rest of the engines it claims to cherish.

All the engines that the GWS own are looked after well at Didcot. There is undercover accommodation for all locos. If you think they can have 20 steam locos in ticket at the same time then a reality check is in order. The current aim is to have around 5-6 in ticket with at least a couple of these on hire to other railways. A loco strategy is in place to maintain ones which will never steam again. Mon 29 August should hopefully see the first steaming of another small engine at their Paddington event.

 

[coradiafan2000]

All the engines that the GWS own are looked after well at Didcot

Are they? I was at Didcot a couple of months ago and some of the engines were very dusty, with people writing "clean me" with their fingers on them. I was tempted to take a rag to 5051 and give it a clean myself. And don't get me started on Kerosene Castle.

 

[Bessie]

Are they? I was at Didcot a couple of months ago and some of the engines were very dusty, with people writing "clean me" with their fingers on them. I was tempted to take a rag to 5051 and give it a clean myself. And don't get me started on Kerosene Castle.

Kerosene Castle is owned by Pete Waterman. Dust is not the same as rust.

 

[D6968]

Kerosene Castle is owned by Pete Waterman. Dust is not the same as rust.

Still gives an impression of neglect though.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Do you have the same objection to 9351? Or the Grange and County projects?

Isn't the County project also using an inaccurate boiler or something like that? I don't have the same objections to the Grange, or P2 or Patriot projects because to my knowledge, their construction isn't coming at the cost of another engine that could have been restored, and they will be more faithful recreations. If you're gonna do something like this then do it properly.

As I said though, I'd rather see genuine engines return to steam before new builds. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

Kerosene Castle is owned by Pete Waterman. Dust is not the same as rust.

Yes, but when you're putting famous engines on static display, I think you have a duty to ensure they look their best, as sitting there looking nice is all they're really good for at that point.

It's not just Didcot, last year when I visited the NRM even Mallard wasn't in a brilliant state, when previously it had been gleaming. However to be fair this was coming off the back of the pandemic so they probably weren't able to give their engines the same care that they used to.

 

[TheEdge]

Isn't the County project also using an inaccurate boiler or something like that? I don't have the same objections to the Grange, or P2 or Patriot projects because to my knowledge, their construction isn't coming at the cost of another engine that could have been restored, and they will be more faithful recreations. If you're gonna do something like this then do it properly.

The County, Grange and Patriot are all using parts from other locos. In fact the Modified Hall that's being broken up for parts for the County and Grange is actually a rarer loco than a Castle.

Faithful recreation, the P2 isn't, it's being redesigned to fit a modern loading gauge. Quite a lot of preserved locos are modified like that. 71000 is heavily modified from its original design.

It is very hard to be clean cut here. The rules you want to apply to 47xx can very easily be applied to lots of other projects, both new builds and preserved.

As I said though, I'd rather see genuine engines return to steam before new builds. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

Fine. I personally would much rather see a unique piece of history return rather than another example of something already well represented slowly act as a time sink.

 

[MarkyT]

Faithful recreation, the P2 isn't, it's being redesigned to fit a modern loading gauge. Quite a lot of preserved locos are modified like that.

The boiler also has a shorter barrel than the originals, to match that of Tornado. The trust are having two identical new boilers manufactured in Germany. This is so they can have a common spare in the pool to be substituted on either loco at overhaul. The boilers all have steel fireboxes too unlike the original copper ones on A1s and P2s. Some significant redesign has been carried out on the P2 Lentz rotary cam valve gear, as the original design proved unsuccessful and was replaced later by standard piston valves driven by Gresley's usual walschaerts and 2 to 1 conjugation mechanism. Then there's all the electrics added for modern warning and protection systems. Tornado is getting an ETCS capability added as a pilot scheme for future mainline steam, and no doubt the P2 will be getting the same equipment.

 

[alexl92]

It’s a vanity project, even if they finish the 47 and the Star, they’ll probably manage one ticket shuttling up and down the demonstration line with the odd gala appearance thrown in, then 10 years afterwards they’ll be sidelined in time for the next New Build vanity project.

 

[Bevan Price]

All these replicas will be a perpetual drain on the funds of the groups building them. As time goes by, only one steam loco. will be widely known by the UK general public - and that loco (Flying Scotsman) was not even the best loco that has ever existed in UK.

Only a slowly dwindling number of steam enthusiasts will notice much difference between a 47xx or 28xx class, or a (Castle, King or Star), (Grange, Hall or Saint), etc. A few of the most observant may notice some slight size differences.

 

[Shenandoah]

Update on steam locomotive 7027 Thornbury Castle and Night Owl 4709

The 4709 Group has sent RailAdvent an update on proceedings with regards to 7027 Thornbury Castle and their new-build project 4709.

www.railadvent.co.uk

The 4709 Group has sent RailAdvent an update on proceedings with regards to 7027 Thornbury Castle and their new-build project 4709.

The group, who purchased 7027 Thornbury Castle last month, much to the shock of the railway community, says it is not the end of the road for the Castle locomotive.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

All these replicas will be a perpetual drain on the funds of the groups building them. As time goes by, only one steam loco. will be widely known by the UK general public - and that loco (Flying Scotsman) was not even the best loco that has ever existed in UK.

Only a slowly dwindling number of steam enthusiasts will notice much difference between a 47xx or 28xx class, or a (Castle, King or Star), (Grange, Hall or Saint), etc. A few of the most observant may notice some slight size differences.

Just so

 

[tumbles]

The cost to rebuild 7027 Thornbury Castle has been estimated by The 4709 Group at £2 million, funding for which, according to the group has been absent and progress has been slow.

Well that's a load of rubbish for a start. GWS really are not helping themselves here.

 

[Flying Phil]

Well Thornbury arrived at the GCR in Feb 2020, purchased by "a wealthy supporter" of the GCR who was to provide the finance (est £1m) for a three year return to steam. Obviously Covid slowed progress but it did have the boiler lifted, the wheels removed and refurbished, the frames stripped and repainted. The tender frames were stripped and repaired. Lots of parts were refurbished and parts were going back onto the frames. Some missing items were found, others purchased and some manufactured. The boiler was said to be in very good condition having had relatively little use since a new inner firebox had been installed in the late 1950's. It would need retubing etc.
So hardly slow progress with absent funding......

However the owner has obviously had a change of mind and sought a buyer. The 4709 group had previously tried to buy the locomotive back in 2020 so were an obvious choice.

 

[nferguso]

I thought that had been lifted, and heavier 'red restriction' locos were permitted again? Hence the early return of 9466 from it's hire to the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway.

Sorry, can you amplify that point please?

 

[Trainlog]

I know that its been a little while since many have given it any thought to it, but i would like to know what has happened recently in terms of the Thornbury castle problem? Though this article was made 2 months ago, it still has a very valid point that we are 2 out of the 6 months into the offer that the Night owl group as given Jonathan Jones Pratt for the chance to get Thornbury castle back.

Source:https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/0...r-steam-locomotive-7027-thornbury-castle.html

 

[D Williams]

I thought that had been lifted, and heavier 'red restriction' locos were permitted again? Hence the early return of 9466 from it's hire to the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway.

The WSR did some calculations on the strength of their bridges and allowing for the 25mph max speed and subsequent reduction in hammer blow 9466 is again permitted to run over the WSR. Whether this involves local speed restrictions over bridges I don't know . Presumably this argument can also be used for other red route locos eg 42xx.

 

[Flying Phil]

Meanwhile Thornbury's chassis still sits in Lbro shed and it has a second driving wheel splasher fitted.

 

[Trainlog]

Meanwhile Thornbury's chassis still sits in Lbro shed and it has a second driving wheel splasher fitted.
View attachment 125305

When you said about a Splasher being fitted, i am glad it means there is still some attention being given to the loco despite the uncertainty surrounding it until the spring. Has there been any more commentary between the parties involved for the locos fate? as tbf we haven't seen much from both sides recently.