Thameslink-case taken to court despite letter to settle out of court

[railtravel19]

Hi, I bought a wrong ticket on a journey from Cam-Ldn in 2019. I was sent a letter by thameslink around Feb 2020 to which I replied saying i am sorry that i bought the wrong ticket and that i am willing to pay fine+admin costs to settle the case out of court. Fast forward: June 2021, I receive a final notice that my fine has not been paid despite so many notices etc. In between I changed addresses and COVID had hit so I did not receive any correspondence. I made a stat declaration and have a hearing at Magistrates court.

What should I expect? Any suggestions? Should I be writing a letter to present to the Magsitrate? Any help will be kindly appreciated

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, I bought a wrong ticket on a journey from Cam-Ldn in 2019. I was sent a letter by thameslink around Feb 2020 to which I replied saying i am sorry that i bought the wrong ticket and that i am willing to pay fine+admin costs to settle the case out of court. Fast forward: June 2021, I receive a final notice that my fine has not been paid despite so many notices etc. In between I changed addresses and COVID had hit so I did not receive any correspondence. I made a stat declaration and have a hearing at Magistrates court.

What should I expect? Any suggestions? Should I be writing a letter to present to the Magsitrate? Any help will be kindly appreciated

We'll need a lot more information to be clear. Please answer all questions in bold.

So, I read the events as follows:

1) You buy a "wrong ticket" (what sort of wrong ticket? Be explicit with how it was "wrong" - no railcard? Child fare? Doughtnutting?)
2) You are caught by Thameslink and are sent a letter saying they will prosecute you.
3) You write back saying sorry and you want to settle out of court.
4) You hear nothing further? And don't follow up, I assume?
5) You receive a final notice (from who? The court?) about a fine that has been incurred? What offence have you been convicted of there?
6) You make a statutory declaration saying you weren't aware of the summons and this is accepted
7) The conviction is voided and Thameslink promptly prosecute you again - for which offence? When is the court date?

What is your proposed defence? We need full details of the incident, the ticket/s held, where you travelled from and to?

Please post copies of ALL correspondence you have with your personal details redacted so detailed help can be given.

 

[Haywain]

The conviction is voided and Thameslink promptly prosecute you again

Thameslink/GTR are not prosecuting again, it is the original prosecution that has been restarted.

 

[railtravel19]

1) You buy a "wrong ticket" (Bought a rail card ticket when my rail card had expired)
2) You are caught by Thameslink and are sent a letter saying they will prosecute you.
3) You write back saying sorry and you want to settle out of court.
4) You hear nothing further? And don't follow up, I assume? (I followed up 2-3 weeks via email after sending a first class registered post but didnt receive any response, circa Feb, 2020) Then COVID hit and I received no correspondence, I moved out of that place after a few months.
5) You receive a final notice (from Magistrates court) about a fine that has been incurred? byelaw 18(1) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000
6) You make a statutory declaration saying you weren't aware of the summons and this is accepted Yes
7) The conviction is voided and Thameslink promptly prosecute you again - for which offence? When is the court date?

I am not sure if thameslink promoply prosecute again but the statutory declaration meant the court will hear me for the case before they impose the fine. From what i understand, I did not breach byelaw 24 (which involves ignoring the summons because I didn't receive any). Court date is next week.

What is your proposed defence? We need full details of the incident, the ticket/s held, where you travelled from and to?

Along the lines that buying a railcard ticket instead of a general one was an honest mistake for which I am very regretful. Upon being promptly asked about a railcard by an officer at the station, I bought a railcard before my return leg so that a similar situation never arises in the future. I also offered to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

Tickets held were for a return day ticket, it was from cambridge to london.

I have never been to a magistrates court and am a student, should i present any letter to magistrate saying something? Will they ask guilty or not guilty, what should i say?

 

[spag23]

I moved out of that place after a few months.

Did the OP keep the train company advised of their new addresses, or at least ensure reliable forwarding of post? Undelivered mail seems to be a major factor in this case.

 

[railtravel19]

Did the OP keep the train company advised of their new addresses, or at least ensure reliable forwarding of post? Undelivered mail seems to be a major factor in this case.

I moved out 6 months after and i did ensure to my previous college to forward any correspondence mail to my new address. And the only fine letter I received from court (to my current address) was 1.5 years after I wrote to the train company in February 2020 to settle it out of court.

 

[some bloke]

You need to persuade the company to settle, because you are guilty of the "strict liability" (ie automatic) offence under Byelaw 18(1):

"...no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws

If you post the correspondence on here with identifying details and reference numbers obscured, people can advise on what to say to the company.

Depending on which day the hearing is, you may have to do this by phone, especially if they don't answer emails promptly. You can keep trying to persuade them with advice from here.

If that doesn't work, go to the court early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and try to persuade them to settle.

 

[Haywain]

Along the lines that buying a railcard ticket instead of a general one was an honest mistake for which I am very regretful.

Whilst this may be an honest mistake, it remains an offence. A railcard discounted ticket without a supporting railcard is not a valid ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

We see many cases on here with Thameslink happy to settle such cases - so seems like the OP needs to engage with them (or more likely in this case get them to engage with the OP...) - so I guess it's a case of write / e-mail / phone if poss their prosecutions team in the hope it's poss to achieve that and then the prosecution gets withdrawn.

 

[railtravel19]

You need to persuade the company to settle, because you are guilty of the "strict liability" (ie automatic) offence under Byelaw 18(1):

"...no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws

If you post the correspondence on here with identifying details and reference numbers obscured, people can advise on what to say to the company.

Depending on which day the hearing is, you may have to do this by phone, especially if they don't answer emails promptly. You can keep trying to persuade them with advice from here.

If that doesn't work, go to the court early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and try to persuade them to settle.

I do not have the original correspondence letter from Thameslink as I had responded to it in February 2020 (on the same letter) but the offence was not travelling with a valid ticket and that if I have anything to say/settle out of court or that they will take it to court etc.

August 2021 Receive a final letter from Fines officer saying that

"As you have failed to make payment as directed, you are hereby given notice that one or more following steps will be taken against you..."

August 2021 I make a stat declaration which is accepted

March 2023 (next week hearing date).

These are all the correspondences.

Thank you so much for your reply and suggesting to call thameslink. I doubt they will respond to emails as they say appeals should be sent by post (which I did back in Feb 2020). What I am not sure of is whether thameslink agreed to settle out of court and asked to pay penalty fine (and i didnt get those letters) and then after they took it to court? Would thameslink prosecutor be present at the court on the hearing date? What is the best way to ask them? Any advice is appreciated. And if hypothetically they don't agree, what should I say to the magistrate? The total fine is £365, but I am more concerned of my record and don't want to be convicted

We see many cases on here with Thameslink happy to settle such cases - so seems like the OP needs to engage with them (or more likely in this case get them to engage with the OP...) - so I guess it's a case of write / e-mail / phone if poss their prosecutions team in the hope it's poss to achieve that and then the prosecution gets withdrawn.

Thanks very much for your reply. What is the best thing to say via email? Because I originally wrote a letter to them immediately requesting to settle out of court and that i am happy to pay penalty.

 

[Haywain]

August 2021 I make a stat declaration which is accepted

March 2023 (next week hearing date).

Have you had any communication with Thameslink between those dates?

 

[some bloke]

What I am not sure of is whether thameslink agreed to settle out of court and asked to pay penalty fine (and i didnt get those letters) and then after they took it to court?

Yes, that's something you need to ask them about.

I would send them an email before early morning Monday, then follow it up with a phone call unless they respond by 11am or midday. Best to get advice on here first, after spelling out what you told them earlier - what you told them may be relevant to what you say now. You can post a draft on here.

I doubt they will respond to emails as they say appeals should be sent by post

If they are unenthusiastic about going over this old case, they may be happy to get rid of it if you offer money.

if hypothetically they don't agree, what should I say to the magistrate?

The magistrates don't have any choice but to convict if you're guilty, and it doesn't seem like there is any scope at all for you not to be guilty. The most they can do is give you a conditional discharge or absolute discharge. If I were a defendant and had simply made a mistake, I think I might ask for a discharge on principle.

Remember that the worst would be a conviction for this offence which implies no intent at all to avoid a fare - though if you did this deliberately and an employer asks before the conviction is spent (or the job is one where they can ask about/find out about unspent convictions), you may be required to answer questions honestly about what you did.

But in any case, Govia Thameslink Railway very often settle, so you may well have a good chance especially if some relevant correspondence was lost.

 

[railtravel19]

Have you had any communication with Thameslink between those dates?

No there's been no correspondence.

Yes, that's something you need to ask them about.

I would send them an email before early morning Monday, then follow it up with a phone call unless they respond by 11am or midday. Best to get advice on here first, after spelling out what you told them earlier - what you told them may be relevant to what you say now. You can post a draft on here.

Subject: Appeal reference no.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing with case reference no XXXX. The court hearing date is XXXX and I would like to kindly request if it is possible to settle the case out of court. I was approached by a ticket officer on 20/12/19 and I had a wrong ticket on train. On 10/02/20 I wrote an appeal to GTR and sent it to your department, which was received. On 23/02/20 I enquired again via email about my request to settle out of court and my willingness to pay the outstanding fare+penalty but received no response. On August 2021, I received a final fine letter from court, asking me to pay £365 which includes the court administrative costs that incurred to the company. In between August 2020 and August 2021, I had changed addresses and I believe some relevant correspondence was lost between this time. I had no knowledge that the case had been taken to court until August 2021, after which I filed for a statutory declaration. I understand the hearing date is this week but I would like to kindly request that the case is settled out of court. I sincerely offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter. Looking forward to your kind consideration.

Yours sincerely,

 

[Haywain]

No there's been no correspondence.

This seems to be an extraordinarily long time between submitting a statutory declaration and a date for a new hearing. Did you not consider contacting them during this time?

 

[railtravel19]

This seems to be an extraordinarily long time between submitting a statutory declaration and a date for a new hearing. Did you not consider contacting them during this time?

I contacted Single Justice a few times and the concerned court a couple of times between submitting stat dec and my first hearing date. Did not contact GTR as i thought they already took the case to court

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks very much for your reply. What is the best thing to say via email? B

Not 100% sure but start by asking if they ever got your initial reply, did they reply to it - if so, what did that state, when did they send that and where did they send it etc etc - ask if stuff might have gone missing, indicate that you were keen to settle then and still are etc - bear in mind this was all at the height of covid so they may have been working in a less than co-ordinated and smooth fashion, with staff working from home and not used to that at the time etc etc

 

[some bloke]

You could add something like,

"I apologise for asking at such short notice; I was not aware until X March that I could request a settlement at this stage"

[or whatever the explanation is];

and

"I hope you will not mind me writing by email in the circumstances";

and edit to,

"I believe some relevant correspondence may have been lost in the post or by someone at my previous address during this time"

[if that's what you mean. The idea is to convey, if it's true, that it isn't your fault - to reduce the chance that the company think you may have yourself lost some correspondence.]

If you feel you'd rather phone given what they said earlier about not emailing, that is another option. If you do write first, follow up reasonably quickly with a phone call - which day is the court hearing?

I replied saying i am sorry that i bought the wrong ticket and that i am willing to pay fine+admin costs to settle the case out of court.

Best to get advice on here first, after spelling out what you told them earlier - what you told them may be relevant to what you say now.

There may be nothing in the reply you sent which would influence what you tell them now - just in case, do you have a copy or can you remember more of what you wrote, if there was more?

 

[railtravel19]

You could add something like,

"I apologise for asking at such short notice; I was not aware until X March that I could request a settlement at this stage"

[or whatever the explanation is];

and

"I hope you will not mind me writing by email in the circumstances";

and edit to,

"I believe some relevant correspondence may have been lost in the post or by someone at my previous address during this time"

[if that's what you mean. The idea is to convey, if it's true, that it isn't your fault - to reduce the chance that the company think you may have yourself lost some correspondence.]

If you feel you'd rather phone given what they said earlier about not emailing, that is another option. If you do write first, follow up reasonably quickly with a phone call - which day is the court hearing?





There may be nothing in the reply you sent which would influence what you tell them now - just in case, do you have a copy or can you remember more of what you wrote, if there was more?

It is today! Actually GTR replied and said that they had agreed to settle the case out of court with £65 fine and sent me correspondence (but that may have been lost in the post or by someone probably) so then they took the case to the court in April 2020. When I make statutory declaration today, shall I ask their solicitor before if they want to settle out of court?

 

[30907]

It is today! Actually GTR replied and said that they had agreed to settle the case out of court with £65 fine and sent me correspondence (but that may have been lost in the post or by someone probably) so then they took the case to the court in April 2020. When I make statutory declaration today, shall I ask their solicitor before if they want to settle out of court?

I thought you had already made the SD in August 2021?
Could I suggest "would be prepared to consider settling..." would be tactful! Good luck anyway.

 

[railtravel19]

I thought you had already made the SD in August 2021?
Could I suggest "would be prepared to consider settling..." would be tactful! Good luck anyway.

Hi I made an application for it, the hearing for stat dec is today at the magistrates court. Is there something I should say to magistrate other than explaining what might have happened with the correspondence?

 

[island]

Hi I made an application for it, the hearing for stat dec is today at the magistrates court. Is there something I should say to magistrate other than explaining what might have happened with the correspondence?

Are you sure the hearing today is not for the substantive offence? Statutory declarations do not usually tend to have hearings themselves.

 

[railtravel19]

Are you sure the hearing today is not for the substantive offence? Statutory declarations do not usually tend to have hearings themselves.

Thanks, I am sorry I used the word 'hearing'. It is my stat declaration.

 

[some bloke]

It's a good sign that they were prepared to settle before.

In case you're still waiting:

When I make statutory declaration today, shall I ask their solicitor before if they want to settle out of court?

The prosecutor could agree in principle, but they have no case to drop until the conviction is void and the case reactivated.

It would be prudent to tell the prosecutor about the earlier settlement offer and your willingness to settle, in case the magistrates want to start making progress on the substantive case immediately.

Is there something I should say to magistrate other than explaining what might have happened with the correspondence?

As the declaration form says, the conviction is void if the declaration is properly made (and in time, or with the court accepting explanation for the delay, which seems catered for by the court agreeing to let you make it long afterwards). The court has no choice - the conviction must be void.

If the magistrates indicate that they want to start dealing with the substantive case immediately, you can let them know that you are hoping to settle, and hopefully the prosecutor will say they agree that that discussion can happen first.

You can ask questions to the court staff and/or duty solicitor.

I am sorry I used the word 'hearing'. It is my stat declaration.

To be fair, in this case the court staff wrote of an application to make a declaration being "heard":

Can I still ask to settle out of court after submitting a Statutory Declaration?

Hi all This kind of question seems to be pretty common but I've had a search in other threads and can't find anything about this exact situation, that being: - In Dec 2021 I travelled with an out of date railcard, I realised and tried to buy a new one on the train but it didn't work (no...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[railtravel19]

It's a good sign that they were prepared to settle before.

In case you're still waiting:


The prosecutor could agree in principle, but they have no case to drop until the conviction is void and the case reactivated.

It would be prudent to tell the prosecutor about the earlier settlement offer and your willingness to settle, in case the magistrates want to start making progress on the substantive case immediately.


As the declaration form says, the conviction is void if the declaration is properly made (and in time, or with the court accepting explanation for the delay, which seems catered for by the court agreeing to let you make it long afterwards). The court has no choice - the conviction must be void.

If the magistrates indicate that they want to start dealing with the substantive case immediately, you can let them know that you are hoping to settle, and hopefully the prosecutor will say they agree that that discussion can happen first.

You can ask questions to the court staff and/or duty solicitor.


To be fair, in this case the court staff wrote of an application to make a declaration being "heard":

Can I still ask to settle out of court after submitting a Statutory Declaration?

Hi all This kind of question seems to be pretty common but I've had a search in other threads and can't find anything about this exact situation, that being: - In Dec 2021 I travelled with an out of date railcard, I realised and tried to buy a new one on the train but it didn't work (no...

www.railforums.co.uk

Hello, thank you all for your help over the last few days! I had my stat dec today. The prosecutor was not present from GTR so I couldn't get a chance to settle the case out of court. However, the court reduced my fine to £10.85 and gave absolute discharge. May I ask whether this would still appear on my record?

 

[spag23]

I am not an expert, but it seems this was an actual hearing (ie for the substantive case), not a consideration of your Statutory Declaration to have whole court action voided.
Is this what you expected? Am I the only one confused?

 

[island]

You cannot get a fine if you get an absolute discharge. They are mutually exclusive. We would need to know which you actually got to give advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello, thank you all for your help over the last few days! I had my stat dec today. The prosecutor was not present from GTR so I couldn't get a chance to settle the case out of court. However, the court reduced my fine to £10.85 and gave absolute discharge. May I ask whether this would still appear on my record?

An absolute discharge is a criminal conviction and hence you have a criminal record, but with no punishment added. What was the £10.85? The outstanding fare, or a victim surcharge?

You mentioned you were being prosecuted under the Railway Bylaws. These will not show on a Standard DBS, and will only show on an Enhanced DBS in extremely rare circumstances.

 

[railtravel19]

An absolute discharge is a criminal conviction and hence you have a criminal record, but with no punishment added. What was the £10.85? The outstanding fare, or a victim surcharge?

You mentioned you were being prosecuted under the Railway Bylaws. These will not show on a Standard DBS, and will only show on an Enhanced DBS in extremely rare circumstances.

It was the outstanding fare

You cannot get a fine if you get an absolute discharge. They are mutually exclusive. We would need to know which you actually got to give advice.

Yes, I got to pay the outstanding fare. Ideally, if the prosecutors were there from GTR, I would have settled out of court but this was the best I could get in the situation

An absolute discharge is a criminal conviction and hence you have a criminal record, but with no punishment added. What was the £10.85? The outstanding fare, or a victim surcharge?

You mentioned you were being prosecuted under the Railway Bylaws. These will not show on a Standard DBS, and will only show on an Enhanced DBS in extremely rare circumstances.

Isn't absolute discharge spent immediately and that I don't necessarily have to mention?

 

[some bloke]

Yes, an advantage of the absolute discharge is that it's "spent" immediately.

Rehabilitation Periods

A table of rehabilitation periods for the most common sentences and disposals, and example scenarios.

www.gov.uk

Byelaw convictions anyway aren't normally recorded on the "Police National Computer" database because they are not for "recordable" offences.

ACRO Criminal Records Office - Explanation of Terms

The term "criminal record" is not always used to mean the same thing, which can easily lead to confusion; it often refers to what's on the PNC (or a subset of the information on it).

If I understand correctly:

If an employer is entitled to a standard or enhanced DBS check (ie more than the basic check), or security clearance, they can ask about spent convictions. This means they have the right to information from the person about spent convictions for non-recordable offences, regardless of their absence from a DBS check. It also means they have the right to answers from the person about the incidents themselves despite, for example, a byelaw conviction implying no dishonesty.

In practice employers would rarely care much about an innocent mistake concerning train tickets.

So just be truthful if you need to disclose, and it's unlikely there will be a problem. Lack of candour is generally viewed as much more serious.

And for most jobs you don't have to disclose it at all.

 

[railtravel19]

Yes, an advantage of the absolute discharge is that it's "spent" immediately.

Rehabilitation Periods

A table of rehabilitation periods for the most common sentences and disposals, and example scenarios.

www.gov.uk

Byelaw convictions anyway aren't normally recorded on the "Police National Computer" database because they are not for "recordable" offences.

ACRO Criminal Records Office - Explanation of Terms

The term "criminal record" is not always used to mean the same thing, which can easily lead to confusion; it often refers to what's on the PNC (or a subset of the information on it).

If I understand correctly:

If an employer is entitled to a standard or enhanced DBS check (ie more than the basic check), or security clearance, they can ask about spent convictions. This means they have the right to information from the person about spent convictions for non-recordable offences, regardless of their absence from a DBS check. It also means they have the right to answers from the person about the incidents themselves despite, for example, a byelaw conviction implying no dishonesty.

In practice employers would rarely care much about an innocent mistake concerning train tickets.

So just be truthful if you need to disclose, and it's unlikely there will be a problem. Lack of candour is generally viewed as much more serious.

And for most jobs you don't have to disclose it at all.

I understand, thanks very much for your help and advice throughout! Later I was wondering how maybe I could have requested the magistrates after my stat was accepted that I get some time to talk to GTR prosecutor and settle it out of court. Ideally, I could have dont that then and there but the prosecutor wasan't there so we proceeded with the hearing. I am not sure if the magistrate would have given me time (like a week) out of court to do this but it was probably worth a shot.

Someone also told me I could have request an out of court disposal. Anyway, now its done and I have this on my record, but been thinking if this could have issues for me when travelling