How fast could the Calder Valley get?

[willgreen]

The Transpennine Upgrade is focusing mainly on the Huddersfield Line; reduced journey times are a major part of this package. But could timings on the Calder Valley, typically seen as the slower route, be improved as well? At the minute services take about 1hr 20 but it seems this could be reduced to less than an hour.
The obvious way to cut time would be to cut out some of the station calls. If you reinstated the south to east curve at Bowling and skip Bradford Interchange you'd probably save 10 minutes, maybe more considering the speed of the approach to the station. Skipping other stops would also help - are there places where linespeed could be increased too?
Evidently such a service probably couldn't be pathed but it would be interesting to see any potential of time improvements.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The obvious way to cut time would be to cut out some of the station calls. If you reinstated the south to east curve at Bowling and skip Bradford Interchange you'd probably save 10 minutes, maybe more considering the speed of the approach to the station.

What's the point of skip-stopping principal stations?

 

[Bertie the bus]

The obvious way to cut time would be to cut out some of the station calls. If you reinstated the south to east curve at Bowling and skip Bradford Interchange you'd probably save 10 minutes, maybe more considering the speed of the approach to the station. Skipping other stops would also help - are there places where linespeed could be increased too?

So if you don't stop at any intermediate stations and therefore make the service completely pointless you could decrease journey times between Manchester and Leeds when times between those 2 cities are being decreased due to a multi-billion £ investment anyway.

 

[willgreen]

What's the point of skip-stopping principal stations?

There's already other services from Bradford to Manchester - I'm not proposing cutting those - just interested how much time you could save by cutting a Bradford stop

So if you don't stop at any intermediate stations and therefore make the service completely pointless you could decrease journey times between Manchester and Leeds when times between those 2 cities are being decreased due to a multi-billion £ investment anyway.

How is it completely pointless to not stop in between? Are there not end to end passengers? I'm not suggesting cutting the current services. I also didn't suggest not stopping anywhere - but Bradford does not produce a huge proportion of Calder Valley passengers.

 

[D6130]

There's already other services from Bradford to Manchester - I'm not proposing cutting those - just interested how much time you could save by cutting a Bradford stop


How is it completely pointless to not stop in between? Are there not end to end passengers? I'm not suggesting cutting the current services. I also didn't suggest not stopping anywhere - but Bradford does not produce a huge proportion of Calder Valley passengers.

Not true. A large number of passengers commute from Calder Valley stations - especially Hebden Bridge and Halifax - into Bradford every day.

 

[willgreen]

Not true. A large number of passengers commute from Calder Valley stations - especially Hebden Bridge and Halifax - into Bradford every day.

Sure. I'm not suggesting cutting services that already exist. I'm asking whether the Calder Valley could compete with the Huddersfield route on speed if an express service was introduced as well - and I don't think serving Bradford is necessarily essential.

 

[cle]

Bradford aside, it’s a route with a lot of potential. It serves a good amount of places (either larger towns or desirable commuter spots) - and having two big cities at either end, plus some Bradford demand, gives a lot of overlapping journey pairs.

That said, it’s pretty windy and two track. Flighted frequency seems more likely (1 fast, 1 slow/semi, per 15 mins?) - with the Preston trains overlaid. Those could get to 2tph in some capacity I think - although the Tod curve is ostensibly that, in some regards.

 

[JonathanH]

Are there not end to end passengers?

I'm asking whether the Calder Valley could compete with the Huddersfield route on speed if an express service was introduced as well - and I don't think serving Bradford is necessarily essential.

The Calder Valley route doesn't need to compete on end-to-end times. In theory, all of the end-to-end traffic should be using the Huddersfield route, which is why that route is being upgraded.

What should be regarded, is times from Rochdale / Todmorden / Hebden Bridge / Halifax / Bradford to both Manchester and Leeds, as well as local operations, which lends itself to a mix of trains which stop frequently at one end of the route and are more limited stop at the other end.

Funnily enough, that is basically how the timetable is planned.

 

[507020]

There's already other services from Bradford to Manchester - I'm not proposing cutting those - just interested how much time you could save by cutting a Bradford stop

The Calder Valley ones Leeds - Manchester Victoria and Leeds - Chester are the only direct services between Bradford and Manchester. It is also possible to change at Blackburn or Huddersfield but not ideal.

That said, reinstating a Bradford Interchange avoiding line is something that absolutely should be done for resiliency, since there is currently no diversionary route for the line through Mirfield and there is no capacity for additional services, especially freight, to reverse at Bradford Interchange.

How is it completely pointless to not stop in between? Are there not end to end passengers? I'm not suggesting cutting the current services. I also didn't suggest not stopping anywhere - but Bradford does not produce a huge proportion of Calder Valley passengers.

Yes, there are end to end Manchester - Leeds passengers, but there is no reason for them to use the Calder Valley line end to end when the faster and soon to be upgraded route via Huddersfield is available. There are slight arguments for passengers coming from Chester via Newton-le-Willows and Wigan via Atherton staying on direct services though.

That Atherton Line was the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway’s Pendleton and Hindley cutoff route, to shorten their main line to Manchester by avoiding Bolton. It was also possible to reach Rochdale avoiding Manchester by running via Bolton and Bury Knowsley Street, effectively a Manchester northern orbital route.

It was planned for this to be supplemented with a Littleborough and Sowerby Bridge cutoff route, avoiding Todmorden and Hebden Bridge, but construction difficulties forced it to be abandoned and it only got as far as Rishworth from Sowerby Bridge, but there is a 587 bus that goes this way from Rochdale to Halifax, however the GNR completed a Low Moor and Bramley cutoff route using the Pudsey Greenside tunnel.

Trains using this route, sharing the Calder Valley only between Castleton and Littleborough, Sowerby Bridge and Low Moor and between Bramley and Leeds could potentially be a lot faster, without affecting capacity for services between Manchester, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Bradford, so I wonder if it’s still worth doing as a secondary route even with TRU and NPR.

 

[JonathanH]

That said, reinstating a Bradford Interchange avoiding line is something that absolutely should be done for resiliency, since there is currently no diversionary route for the line through Mirfield and there is no capacity for additional services, especially freight, to reverse at Bradford Interchange.

Building an avoiding line for a place which is a major traffic objective on a secondary line just for resilience, which already has a diversionary route via Dewsbury, is not going to have a high cost benefit trade off. There is no need for freight to run via Bradford.

 

[507020]

Building an avoiding line for a place which is a major traffic objective on a secondary line just for resilience, which already has a diversionary route via Dewsbury, is not going to have a high cost benefit trade off. There is no need for freight to run via Bradford.

It doesn’t have a diversionary route via Dewsbury when the line through Mirfield is blocked and in that case there would be equal need for Calder Valley freight to run via a Bradford avoiding line as diverted TPE services.

 

[JonathanH]

It doesn’t have a diversionary route via Dewsbury when the line through Mirfield is blocked and in that case there would be equal need for Calder Valley freight to run via a Bradford avoiding line as diverted TPE services.

The railway can't be run on the basis of resilience for lines that may be blocked. How many times a year is the railway blocked at Mirfield, other than for engineering work, to the extent that an avoiding line is required?

 

[Manutd1999]

Currently the fastest trains from Manchester to Bradford call at Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden and Halifax, with a journey time of ~60 minutes. Those are all fairly big towns in their own right, so it's hard to see how an express service could skip lots of stops. Maybe a hypothetical fast service could skip Todmorden and Hebden, but is it really worth to save just 4-5 minutes?

It would be a bigger benefit if the service level was increased to run 2ph semi-fast from Bradford and Manchester, instead of the current 1ph + 1ph slower service.

with the Preston trains overlaid. Those could get to 2tph in some capacity I think

This could potentially be done by extending the current Hull-Halifax service to Preston.

What should be regarded, is times from Rochdale / Todmorden / Hebden Bridge / Halifax / Bradford to both Manchester and Leeds, as well as local operations, which lends itself to a mix of trains which stop frequently at one end of the route and are more limited stop at the other end.

Funnily enough, that is basically how the timetable is planned.

That's the idea but it's a bit random at the moment, with "express" service from Chester to Hebden then turning into an all-station stopper....

I think with a bit of tweaking they could run a clock-face half-hourly pattern, with a mix of semi-fasts and stoppers to serve all markets:

• 2ph all-stop Manchester to Todmorden, continuing to Burnley/Blackburn
  
  
• 2ph Manchester to Bradford, calling Rochdale, Tod, Hebden and Halifax only.
  
  
• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Leeds via Bradford
• 1ph semi-fast to Todmorden, then all stops to Sowerby, continuing to Leeds via Dewsbury
  
  
• 1ph semi-fast Blackpool to York
• 1ph semi-fast Preston to Hull
  
  
• 2ph all-stop Huddersfield to Leeds via Bradford
  
  
• 2ph all-stop Bradford to Leeds, potentially continuing on to York/Selby

 

[E27007]

Electrification, the rapid acceleration from station stops of electric trains, that would make a difference in journey times, let us live in hope!

A link to a Hebweb article of 2015

, Hebden Bridge railway electrification

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Electrification, the rapid acceleration from station stops of electric trains, that would make a difference in journey times, let us live in hope!

A link to a Hebweb article of 2015

, Hebden Bridge railway electrification

Agreed - but AFTER TPU to keep diversionary route capacity. Leeds -Bradford Interchange is alleged being done under IRP so work from the west and do Preston-Colne first.

 

[YorksLad12]

In theory: IF the West Yorkshire Mass Transit happens, and IF the route between Bradford and Leeds roughly follows the valley floor, then Mass Transit could take over the Leeds to Bradford stops. Bramley Station would close, Mass Transit would use Owlcoates (the car park at New Pudsey Station would still just about work) and the journey time between the two cities by heavy rail could come down to 15 minutes.

In theory.

Plus, as said above, electrification, improvements to linespeed, the odd passing point s that fast trains can overtake stoppers, and you could get Bradford-Manchester down by a few more minutes for one premier service per hour (two might be too much), supplemented by stoppers.

 

[D6130]

Plus, as said above, electrification, improvements to linespeed, the odd passing point s that fast trains can overtake stoppers, and you could get Bradford-Manchester down by a few more minutes for one premier service per hour (two might be too much), supplemented by stoppers.

I believe, anecdotally, that there is a medium-term plan to reconnect Hebden Bridge Up Siding with a facing point at the Mytholmroyd end to form an Up Loop....such as there used to be formerly, but not as long. Also, when Preston Power Box eventually closes and its area of control is transferred to Manchester ROC, it should be possible to increase linespeeds between Rochdale and Hebden....possibly with differential (MU) speeds, such as those which already apply between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale and Hebden and Bradford.

 

[The Planner]

I believe, anecdotally, that there is a medium-term plan to reconnect Hebden Bridge Up Siding with a facing point at the Mytholmroyd end to form an Up Loop....such as there used to be formerly, but not as long. Also, when Preston Power Box eventually closes and its area of control is transferred to Manchester ROC, it should be possible to increase linespeeds between Rochdale and Hebden....possibly with differential (MU) speeds, such as those which already apply between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale and Hebden and Bradford.

Why do you need Preston resignalled to do that?

 

[507020]

The railway can't be run on the basis of resilience for lines that may be blocked. How many times a year is the railway blocked at Mirfield, other than for engineering work, to the extent that an avoiding line is required?

My argument would be how disproportionately impacted are passengers and freight on the occasions where this route inevitably becomes blocked? After TRU, dewirements at Mirfield will be a factor, but with bi-modes already on the line, ad hoc Bradford avoiding diversions could ensure resiliency.

Agreed - but AFTER TPU to keep diversionary route capacity. Leeds -Bradford Interchange is alleged being done under IRP so work from the west and do Preston-Colne first.

Electrifying Preston - Colne first rather than the Copy Pit and Calder Valley reopens the argument of Colne - Skipton with Leeds - Preston - Blackpool North EMUs. After TRU, it might make sense to run these through to York rather than DMUs.

In theory: IF the West Yorkshire Mass Transit happens, and IF the route between Bradford and Leeds roughly follows the valley floor, then Mass Transit could take over the Leeds to Bradford stops. Bramley Station would close, Mass Transit would use Owlcoates (the car park at New Pudsey Station would still just about work) and the journey time between the two cities by heavy rail could come down to 15 minutes.

In theory.

Plus, as said above, electrification, improvements to linespeed, the odd passing point s that fast trains can overtake stoppers, and you could get Bradford-Manchester down by a few more minutes for one premier service per hour (two might be too much), supplemented by stoppers.

The Pudsey Greenside loop, without the Low Moor section, creates a passing place for fast and slow trains, either at Greenside station itself, which unlike New Pudsey is well sited within walking distance of most housing and the town centre, but after using the station, New Pudsey should absolutely close with the line only used by the fast EMUs from Leeds to Bradford and all services from Bramley running via Greenside. What is the further use for the car park without the station, for mass transit?

 

[D6130]

Why do you need Preston resignalled to do that?

Altered signal spacing and braking distances perhaps? Otherwise, I would be interested to know why it hasn't already been done with the existing four aspect signalling between Rochdale and Hebden, which section still retains a blanket 70mph restriction without any MU differentials. Is it because of track geometry rather than signal spacing?

 

[The Planner]

Altered signal spacing and braking distances perhaps? Otherwise, I would be interested to know why it hasn't already been done with the existing four aspect signalling between Rochdale and Hebden, which section still retains a blanket 70mph restriction without any MU differentials. Is it because of track geometry rather than signal spacing?

More likely its not been considered a requirement. When Preston goes it will likely just be a re-control along here, no enhancements as it will blow whatever budget it has.

 

[fishwomp]

The obvious way to cut time would be to cut out some of the station calls. If you reinstated the south to east curve at Bowling and skip Bradford Interchange you'd probably save 10 minutes, maybe more considering the speed of the approach to the station. [..]

The Northern Powerhouse rail Bradford version was going to see a station built somewhere slightly further out than Interchange, possibly the site of a current produce market, if I remember correctly.. So an alternative could be to serve Bradford's car owners and reopen the Bowling curve, placing a station at where the combined lines intersect on the Leeds site of the old Hammerton St depot, on the A4177 at Laisterdyke. This would add a stop to the Interchange services, but remove 10 minutes from the through services.

I don't think any of this will or should happen, just saying that that would be an interesting idea.

 

[D6130]

More likely its not been considered a requirement. When Preston goes it will likely just be a re-control along here, no enhancements as it will blow whatever budget it has.

Thanks....that makes sense (unfortunately). The current - rather strange - situation has recent four aspect signalling controlled, I believe, from Rochdale/Castleton, as far as Smithy Bridge; then early 1970s four aspect signalling controlled from Preston as far as Hebden Bridge; followed by 2018-vintage three aspect signalling controlled from York ROC - with differential speeds for MU trains -from there to Leeds via Bradford.

 

[43074]

My argument would be how disproportionately impacted are passengers and freight on the occasions where this route inevitably becomes blocked? After TRU, dewirements at Mirfield will be a factor, but with bi-modes already on the line, ad hoc Bradford avoiding diversions could ensure resiliency.

How often have dewirements happened on the Bolton line since it was electrified?

 

[507020]

How often have dewirements happened on the Bolton line since it was electrified?

I can recall it happening more than once and being sent via Atherton, which is of course a diversionary route.

 

[geoffk]

The Calder Valley route doesn't need to compete on end-to-end times. In theory, all of the end-to-end traffic should be using the Huddersfield route, which is why that route is being upgraded.

What should be regarded, is times from Rochdale / Todmorden / Hebden Bridge / Halifax / Bradford to both Manchester and Leeds, as well as local operations, which lends itself to a mix of trains which stop frequently at one end of the route and are more limited stop at the other end.

Funnily enough, that is basically how the timetable is planned.

Why do routes have to "compete"? I lived on the Calder Valley line for 17 years and it wasn't seen as a Manchester - Leeds route. Of course there are overlapping journeys made like Manchester - Bradford and Rochdale - Leeds, but Todmorden and Hebden Bridge are too busy to miss out, while the user group I belonged to wanted more calls at Sowerby Bridge (and one of its members wanted nearly everything to call at Mytholmroyd!) Electrification and passing loops will (eventually) help to reduce journey times but the mixture of stoppers and semi-fasts is likely to continue.

 

[willgreen]

I should clarify - I'm not suggesting routes should compete, the Huddersfield Line is better for fast traffic between Leeds and Manchester, the Calder Valley serves a wide range of intermediate journeys with big traffic generators e.g. Bradford, Halifax, Hebden. However I guess the aim of the thread was to consider how good the Calder Valley could be as a Leeds-Manchester route - even though Huddersfield is a naturally better option

 

[Fleetmaster]

Any spare capacity needs to be used to increase convenience, and therefore in time, hopefully passengers. It was a very under-used looking line when I was there, albeit in the holidays, but I was just a tourist, so hanging around is less of an issue. You'd definitely feel like a left behind afterthought if you actually live there and have things to do. Bradford Interchange was bizarrely quiet, more staff than passengers on any given service.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However I guess the aim of the thread was to consider how good the Calder Valley could be as a Leeds-Manchester route - even though Huddersfield is a naturally better option

Electrification would help considerably with acceleration of course. It was number 1 priority from the group of cross party northern MPS a few years ago.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I should clarify - I'm not suggesting routes should compete, the Huddersfield Line is better for fast traffic between Leeds and Manchester, the Calder Valley serves a wide range of intermediate journeys with big traffic generators e.g. Bradford, Halifax, Hebden. However I guess the aim of the thread was to consider how good the Calder Valley could be as a Leeds-Manchester route - even though Huddersfield is a naturally better option

This does seem to have the hallmarks of being yet another "Solution in search of a problem". At least 'speculative discussion' is the best place for this.