Negative perception of booking offices and clerks

[Philip]

I have noticed a slightly negative perception on this forum towards ticket offices and some of the staff; not from everyone but quite a few posters over the years haven't had much positive to say; and there doesn't seem to be that much sympathy towards the future of them from these parts, compared with some customers who have been very much vocally in support of the role remaining as it is.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I am interested to hear people's reasons for their views and any experiences they have? Do you think the job is 'money for old rope' or is that playing it down too much? I do work in one myself but I have resigned myself to the attitude of 'what will be will be' as far as the future of the role goes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had a few good experiences of booking office staff, but I've found far more of them to be bad at their jobs and unwilling to be corrected. Examples:

1. Refusal of an Off Peak Day Single to Bedford at City Thameslink in the evening because "it's peak" when that ticket has no evening restrictions.
2. Incorrect processing of excesses and/or claims they don't exist, e.g. charging the full difference rather than half on a route excess and insisting they are right.
3. Trying to be "helpful" when I'd sent someone to a booking office to ask for a very specific set of tickets; the tickets we got didn't allow us to split our group up as we wanted and we didn't have time to argue as the train was due shortly.
4. Claiming tickets aren't valid via a route where they are.
5. Saying "Yer'll 'aft'a go ter Lime Streets* fer dat" for anything other than a return to Liverpool. (Experienced repeatedly at Merseyrail booking offices in my lifetime, so it's not a new thing).

* That's the Scouse diphthong "ts", one sound, as in "tsarts", i.e. "tart", obviously referring to Mr Kipling's finest strawberry filled comestibles.

If I spent time I'd think of more.

I prefer to use a TVM or my phone because most of the time it at least knows what the rules are and follows them correctly.

A booking office should be a source of quality, professional advice with true knowledge of the fares system, superb training and a willingness to check things out if they aren't sure so they learn something more. It's almost something that should be an academic pursuit with the complexity of the system so they can better advise people about it.

Unfortunately most of them are nothing of the sort and are thus priming themselves for redundancy. If you spend the time to post about it on here I'd imagine you're better, but sadly in my experience this really is an exception.

I would like them to stay but they really need to improve their training and performance monitoring to ensure they really are providing the highest quality professional advice. Like people on the phone in e.g. banks, we probably need a smaller number of them but for them to be much better.

 

[ivorytoast28]

I haven't used one in years but my dad always does. They always manage to talk him into buying a day travel card for London even though an off peak return and using contactless on the tube is significantly cheaper

 

[zwk500]

I prefer to use a TVM or my phone because most of the time it at least knows what the rules are and follows them correctly.

Or, if your chosen app doesn't follow the rules, your ticket should be honoured as it has had an itinerary issued.

A booking office should be a source of quality, professional advice with true knowledge of the fares system, superb training and a willingness to check things out if they aren't sure so they learn something more. It's almost something that should be an academic pursuit with the complexity of the system so they can better advise people about it.

Unfortunately most of them are nothing of the sort and are thus priming themselves for redundancy. If you spend the time to post about it on here I'd imagine you're better, but sadly in my experience this really is an exception.

There should be a two-way process with this though - the ticket office should not be a place that can only be accessed with intense expert knowledge. The overly complex ticketing system that essentially forces people to rely on an algorithm to ensure validity isn't helping the ticket office's cause.

Most of the time I have booked in advance or will just use a TVM because I know what I want and it's easier. I did make a point of using the ticket office at Wolverton when it was open as I enjoyed a chat with the clerk there, a lovely chap. My experiences of the other ticket office I used regularly were mixed - one chap was very good about sorting me out with a photocard when I needed a weekly ticket somewhere but I think he also sold me a split ticket I'd ask for that turned out not to be valid without any questions (in the end the guard didn't mention anything, but gave a slightly veiled 'you know this train doesn't stop here right?' about it so no harm done). Then there was a lady who was fairly brusque and rude in rejecting the same split but didn't actually explain why she wouldn't sell me it, instead just claiming it costed more.

 

[greyman42]

I use York booking office just about every week and they are excellent.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A booking office should be a source of quality, professional advice with true knowledge of the fares system, superb training and a willingness to check things out if they aren't sure so they learn something more. It's almost something that should be an academic pursuit with the complexity of the system so they can better advise people about it.

Nail. Head. But does the pay reflect that? In some cases yes, of which more shortly.

But you are quite right to highlight the shortcomings of Merseyrail booking offices. It's clearly come from on high that Merseyrail staff should consider their network to be completely unconnected to train services anywhere else. Why else would the Merseyrail only day ticket (Railcard discounts not applicable) come with the routing "Wirral/Northern lines only" thus leading some to think that they must also be valid on Northern (the TOC) services within Merseyside? Narrow minded leadership at its worst.

So to the pay. For a long time it was the practice for front-line staff, be they traincrew, platform or yard staff, (and others) who became medically incapable of continuing in their role but who were still perfectly capable of a sedentary role (and who were already used to shift working) to be offered a booking office job rather than being made redundant. Not only did this ensure they continued in a decent pension scheme and kept their Priv facilities but they also retained their rate of pay, albeit frozen until such time as the going rate caught them up. It might be reasonable to expect such people to be sufficiently grateful for such largesse that they would make a decent fist at learning something likely to be rather new or challenging. Sadly for some of them that is simply asking too much and arguably they should have simply been shown the door. Equally there are some who just resent having been forced from their previous role and carry a chip on their shoulder until they eventually retire or leave. Now this practice is slowly dying out but nevertheless there will still be plenty of booking office staff in post with such a background who are not really suited to the role.

You also mentioned "superb training": that made me laugh. @Yorkie continually refers to the training issue when it comes to retail staff (which includes some traincrew of course) and he is absolutely right to do so. In practice neither the TOCs nor the DfT are particularly interested in the quality of training, and even less in quality control of subsequent staff performance. Effectively it's left up to individuals to decide how committed they want to be to learning all the tricks of the trade. During guard training I was taught that when unsure of a particular validity to either check the detail immediately (not always possible) or let it go. But in my case that would lead me to check the specifics asap after the event to be better prepared for any repeat situation. Few of my colleagues would do likewise settling instead for a cynical exchange with the messroom "experts".

I mentioned poor leadership with reference to Merseyrail but this is a problem across much of the industry. Far too often the obvious need to maintain a tight focus on safety leads to the concept of customer care to be downplayed. Given that booking office staff are sometimes the first point of contact for an intending passenger good customer service at that point should be seen as hugely important. But all too often that is not the view held by some booking clerks themselves and sometimes their retail managers too. These days I rather suspect that senior decision makers are happy to put all their eggs in the IT-led retail basket (ie apps supplemented by TVMs) and that sales by actual members of staff are a relic of a bygone age to be eliminated at the earliest possible opportunity. Not to say that is a completely bad idea but it needs to be implemented to a uniformly high standard. That's certainly not the case presently.

Our fares system is horribly complex and in some ways is too much for either humans or IT to deal with consistently. But until someone is brave enough to break the current model and replace it with something else, with all the problems of winners and losers such a change will inevitably create, I think we will carry on with the somewhat muddled approach now in favour with both passengers and retail staff caught in the middle of it all.

 

[142blue]

Sadly a role that is being eroded away by the online generation tempted by offers such as split ticketing or fares you can only get online. Yes Northern, I mean you...

From my experience it became a job that was more about problem solving or fixing cock ups made by people buying the wrong tickets, needing to excess to travel earlier, sorting out cycle / seat reservations or booking in advance and wanting the reassurance of having dialogue with another human.

If I compare the role to say pre COVID it's never seen a return to the same level of trade, even if you did the footfall Vs TO sales ratio it's way down on what it was.

This is where I can see they are looking at cost savings, does it need to be open? Yes, there's a customer requirement but does it need to be to the same schedule 17 hours where in the evening there's hardly any custom unless there are cancelled trains or major disruption

 

[LowLevel]

I think there's a value in travel centre style outlets in larger stations, but having someone sat behind a glass window for a few hours a day at commuter stations to serve a trade that is no longer there for them is a waste of time. Give em a tablet and a printer and the ability to make their station a nicer place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there's a value in travel centre style outlets in larger stations, but having someone sat behind a glass window for a few hours a day at commuter stations to serve a trade that is no longer there for them is a waste of time. Give em a tablet and a printer and the ability to make their station a nicer place.

I could certainly see "travel centres" with much wider scope - city hotel bookings, flights, ferries etc - as being of value. Standalone travel agents may not work that well these days with a lot of stuff online, but if you've got a booking office that borderline works adding a few more things to it might increase its viability. A bit like if you've got cabin crew on planes they might as well sell refreshments.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I almost always buy tickets online, but when I have used my nearest station's booking office (Didcot Parkway) in the past few years, the staff have been helpful and polite, without fail. And to do things (e.g. refund on the spot when trains are cancelled/excessively delayed) that would be a bit more hassle to do any other way.

 

[jfollows]

Wilmslow is fine because they give me what I ask for and, if they don't recognise what I'm asking for, engage with interest.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think there's a value in travel centre style outlets in larger stations, but having someone sat behind a glass window for a few hours a day at commuter stations to serve a trade that is no longer there for them is a waste of time. Give em a tablet and a printer and the ability to make their station a nicer place.

That's effectively the LU model which was bitterly opposed by the unions, and I don't doubt that even the most positive thinking staff had misgivings, but implemented in the right way is surely the best option going forward. The political fly-in-the-ointment I can see with the current government would be to insist that such a station based service should be hived off from the actual train operators.

 

[setdown]

Waterloo were very pleasant about excessing an e-ticket last week. I felt I was being a bit awkward with my request, but I wasn't made to feel that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's effectively the LU model which was bitterly opposed by the unions, and I don't doubt that even the most positive thinking staff had misgivings, but implemented in the right way is surely the best option going forward. The political fly-in-the-ointment I can see with the current government would be to insist that such a station based service should be hived off from the actual train operators.

I suspect many suburban Merseyrail booking office staff might strike over that simply because they have an easy life for decent pay. Somewhere like Aughton Park you probably sell a ticket or two an hour and for the rest of the time read the paper.

TBH I'm not convinced station staff on suburban Merseyrail are needed at all. Implement e-tickets, tap in/out contactless and a PAYG scheme on the Metrocard and put a couple of TVMs in per station and use the spare money to beef up the security patrols, and you'll probably get a better result.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

No offense but I almost always end up using the Ticket Machines because they are normally easier to get the ticket I want then having to try and explain to the, often rude, staff. Of course I do have sympathy for the ticket office workers after seeing what they have to deal with(Drunk people, Passengers with little or No English trying to explain what ticket they want, ect.), and I understand that many people can't use the ticket machines for many reasons(Not having good eyesight, wanting a ticket that can only be sold at ticket offices, ect.). But I do typically find ticket buying a more pleasent experience when there is no human interaction.

 

[DelW]

I use my local station ticket office for many of my tickets, partly on the "use it or lose it" principle and partly because many of my trips involve cross London transfers so I need CCSTs. Buying those a day or two in advance is easier from a manned office than burrowing into the menus on a TVM.

But I do sometimes have issues:

I've normally researched my times and the fare on line in advance, and several times I've been quoted a higher fare at the office, usually because the clerk has failed to add my railcard discount or has put in a wrong departure time. Knowing the correct fare allows me to spot this before tickets are issued.

I always check the tickets I've received before leaving the station and on several occasions I've had to go back as they've been issued for the wrong day. This means waiting around while they're withdrawn, my card refunded, then new tickets issued with a new card payment.

When I specify that I want flexible tickets, two of the three regular clerks just sell me what I ask for. But the third always demands I specify what day and time I'm travelling (and returning) and even when I say that my times are uncertain, insists on this and issues me a long printed itinerary with trains and connections listed, and a sheaf of seat reservations that I probably won't use. Buying a ticket from him last week took about 15 minutes because of this, when all I wanted was an off peak open return, albeit for a long journey involving multiple trains.

I can see that for some customers, that would be a useful service. But it would help if he'd accept that I know what I want, which is the ticket I've asked for, and just sell that to me, as a TVM would.

Despite the above, I'd still like the office to stay open, and I'll carry on using it while it is.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I suspect many suburban Merseyrail booking office staff might strike over that simply because they have an easy life for decent pay. Somewhere like Aughton Park you probably sell a ticket or two an hour and for the rest of the time read the paper.

TBH I'm not convinced station staff on suburban Merseyrail are needed at all. Implement e-tickets, tap in/out contactless and a PAYG scheme on the Metrocard and put a couple of TVMs in per station and use the spare money to beef up the security patrols, and you'll probably get a better result.

Wasn't that the intended goal of the now superseded Walrus card? Disappointing how long it's taking to progress this, though TBF GMPTE was looking at a non-digital multi-modal ticketing system with an element of stored value way back in the early to mid 90s. Needless to say it was the realisation that revenue allocation among soon-to-be-privatised TOCs was going to be very difficult that killed it off during development. Ultimately however much any of us may feel comfortable or otherwise about using it technology will eventually lead to significant changes. Rail retail is well down that path now.

 

[Iskra]

I've had a real mixed bag of experiences and I'd describe the attitude of the ticket staff at my local staffed station as 'indifferent,' but I think the main value of ticket offices is someone to speak to when things go wrong or just providing a staff presence to deter anti-social behaviour. So perhaps, they should be ticket/information/help desks instead.

 

[TUC]

The problem is too many staff seem unable to deal with the fact that modern technology means many customers have access to at least as much, if not more, information on tickets than them.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

but I think the main value of ticket offices is someone to speak to when things go wrong or just providing a staff presence to deter anti-social behaviour.

As nice as this would be, often the opening hours(especially at small stations) are only a few hours in the morning and the stations are left unstaffed for the rest of the time. This means that often when passengers need help, or to deter anti social behaviour(Quite often late at night with last trains and unsavoury characters hanging around) there is no one there.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I use York booking office just about every week and they are excellent.

Similar experience at Chorley. Invariably efficient there. And at Buxton recently, the booking clerk came out of his office to work the TVM for me in order that I could get a reduced price advance ticket for the next departure about to go in ten minutes' time (wasn't sure when I'd be arriving at Buxton so hadn't already previously booked).

Incorrect processing of excesses and/or claims they don't exist, e.g. charging the full difference rather than half on a route excess and insisting they are right.

Have had that same issue at Manchester Piccadilly, Bolton, Clitheroe (now closed?) and Blackburn in the past. (And the on board ticket staff couldn't assist either).

Preston and Doncaster, however, knew how to issue a correctly priced change of route excess.

The problem is too many staff seem unable to deal with the fact that modern technology means many customers have access to at least as much, if not more, information on tickets than them.

Had an "interesting" discussion at Urmston in late February; the staff there being blissfully unaware that fares were going up the following Sunday.

Other gripes include being sold tickets with the origin and destination the wrong way round, being "helpfully" offered an unwanted midpoint ticket split that would have precluded travelling back by an alternative route, and not believing that an inexpensive (any operator, route "via Carlisle") off peak day return was possible from the Preston area to Edinburgh Gateway.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think there's a value in travel centre style outlets in larger stations, but having someone sat behind a glass window for a few hours a day at commuter stations to serve a trade that is no longer there for them is a waste of time. Give em a tablet and a printer and the ability to make their station a nicer place.

Quite.

 

[Geeves]

Speaking from the otherside of the glass I was always happy when people would come with exactly what they wanted, I can appreciate that some of the older staff cannot accept that passengers can find everything they need now out on the internet. A lot of the older ex BR staff are almost due to retire, we must be down to 20 or less where I am, so perhaps things will improve at the very end

I have said for ages that some of the smaller stations would be more useful with a handheld machine and go out on the station.

One thing with ticket office staff is if you are already an expert, then just say what you want, Expect to be treated how you treat others is how it goes isnt it?

 

[maniacmartin]

There’s a real mixed bag when it comes to ticket offices. In my experience, the larger ticket offices seem to have staff generally with more knowledge and motivation. I’ve had good experiences at Marylebone, Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Oxford and East Croydon, even with complex requests.

The smaller ticket offices that have only one or two members of staff are much less consistent. Some are good, and others are so useless there’s no point using them unless you want a return to the nearest big city. London Overground are right down there with Merseyrail in this regard.

This suggests to me that there is a big issue with training and how knowledge is transferred around the organisations. The big offices might all get clued up on what’s going on because they’re likely to have at least one person in the office who’s been around a while or looks things up, but that knowledge just doesn’t make it to single staffed offices away from the mainlines.

Do ticket office staff have to work at a major station for a few months before being assigned duties at smaller ones? If not, I think this would really help as you pick up things from colleagues much easier if you’re all in the same room

 

[Titfield]

It isnt just about training per se. It is about being trained and then using that skill on a regular basis so the knowledge / competence / expertise is retained.

One of the key skills needed working in travel / tourism is not having an encyclopaedic knowledge of the entire world but knowing how to use the "encyclopaedia" (and which one to use) to access the information you need.

 

[D821]

I've usually found Merseyrail staff to be pretty good, with the exception of one miserable git at Hamilton Square, but I don't use that station anymore.
I'd rather they were there than using a TVM, as I think it helps keep anti social behaviour down.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

I think there's a value in travel centre style outlets in larger stations, but having someone sat behind a glass window for a few hours a day at commuter stations to serve a trade that is no longer there for them is a waste of time. Give em a tablet and a printer and the ability to make their station a nicer place.

Exactly, I feel that the concept (especially at smaller commuter stations) of a station maneger would work well. To have a single person to serve passengers needs at busier times, and to make their stations look the best they can(e.g. litter cleaning, assisting community groups who may want to help with the stations upkeep, ect.) at quieter times. This position would give more pride in their stations to the Managers themselves, and provide better value for money for both the railway staff and Passengers.

 

[Geeves]

This suggests to me that there is a big issue with training and how knowledge is transferred around the organisations. The big offices might all get clued up on what’s going on because they’re likely to have at least one person in the office who’s been around a while or looks things up, but that knowledge just doesn’t make it to single staffed offices away from the mainlines.

Do ticket office staff have to work at a major station for a few months before being assigned duties at smaller ones? If not, I think this would really help as you pick up things from colleagues much easier if you’re all in the same room

Unless you are on relief duties your entire time will be at one single potentially small station so its likely you will never see half the things you even learned at the school. At the main station you will be dealing with everything and more, and for me (coming to cover a small station from a major one) it was often a surprise to the passengers as they had been told "you can only so X at a large station". Hell one office had passengers believing their machine only had half the functions!

 

[Craig1122]

I spent several years working in ticket offices and from both sides of the glass it's a very mixed bag in terms of the competence of the people you're likely to meet. A couple of posters up thread have put their finger on the issue that both training and subsequent performance management is poor. So really you're at the mercy of how motivated the individual in front of you is.

IMO ticketing is as complicated to get right as operations jobs that are held in much higher regard. The big difference is that you can't kill anyone by selling the wrong ticket so TOC's have much less motivation to get it right.

I tend to use TVM's because on balance it's usually easier than buying a ticket from someone who often knows less than I do. Some personal bugbears in no particular order:

1) Clerks with virtually zero geographical knowledge. You can't know every station off by heart but you should have a good grasp of the local area and where major cities are/how to get there.

2) Fobbing customers off because they either don't know how or can't be bothered to do something a little unusual.

3) Skiving away from the window. The regular clerk at my local station is terrible for this. Half hourly service to London and you can almost guarantee that before it departs the 'back in 5 minutes' notice' will be up.

4) Rudeness to customers, exactly why should anyone else defend your job if that's how you treat paying customers?

 

[30907]

Two comments:
First, the offices I can recall using over the last 20 years - Shipley, Accrington, Blackburn, have all been pretty good.
Second, the problem of staff helpfulness, competence etc is equally to be found in Germany (according to the forum I read) - and no doubt elsewhere.