Unfairly given penalty fare by Northern for off-peak ticket?

[Escooter230]

Today I was travelling from Warrington West to Warrington Central station on the 16:28 train.

I purchased an off-peak day return ticket on the Trainline app for £2.70 a few minutes before the train arrived.

When I got to Warrington Central I was told that the ticket was invalid as it was now peak times and was given a penalty fare.

However, it says on the Trainline app that the ticket is for the 16:28 train and that “Off-peak times vary by route - our journey planner only shows off-peak tickets on trains for which they are valid.”.

In addition, I have checked on the Northern website and I can buy the same ticket for the 16:28 train tomorrow and it is an off-peak ticket for the same price of £2.70.

So have I been given a penalty fare unfairly?

 

[30907]

You have. You should appeal, pointing out that the ticket concerned has no evening restrictions (unlike tickets from the Manchester area).

You should also, once this is resolved, complain to Northern and request that staff are properly trained - the issue would equally affect travel from Liverpool, which is I imagine a significant flow.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume it's £2.70 with railcard discount? But yes, valid after 0929 (Mon-Fri) with no afternoon restrictions.

Pity it's not possible for the OP to charge Northern £100 (or £50 if paid promptly) as a contribution towards personal administration expenses in appealing the apparently incorrectly issued Penalty Fare!

 

[Escooter230]

Yes it was with a railcard. The ticket actually opened the barriers, but they had a box thing that I had to scan it on which made. a beeping sound and they said it was peak time. Thanks for the help I feel better now, I just wish I had challenged them at the time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ticket restrictions seem reasonably clear / straightforward on BRFares...

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Wonder whether the staff member who considered it appropriate to (incorrectly) issue the Penalty Fare will be "quietly spoken to" once the PF is cancelled?

 

[LOL The Irony]

I see carlisle are still follow the whole computer says no marlarky that they were a year ago. My issue involving a return to Bolton valid via Manchester (the stations group) being rejected at Deansgate has a thread somewhere here.

 

[jfollows]

Furthermore, and this is hypothetical because I know the ticket was valid for travel, if it weren't, would not a "penalty fare" be incorrect and excessive here too? The only thing that should be done is to charge the difference between the "off-peak" and "peak" fares. Or is that actually what happened? Whatever the case, it's clearly wrong and a stiff appeal should be made.

 

[Escooter230]

No I wasn't charged the difference, I was given a £100 penalty fare.

 

[RPI]

Even if it wasn't valid you can't be penalty fared for off-peak at peak time.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would absolutely appeal. Keep what you write short, factual and avoid getting emotional about the issue.

Simply point out that the Penalty Fare was not issued in compliance with the Penalty Fare Regulations as the ticket was valid for the train and time that it was used and should therefore be withdrawn. You can point to the restriction code that apples being B1 which prevents travel on outward and return between 0429 and 0930 and I would also provide a screen shot of the Northern Rail website or app showing the 1628 selected along with the relevant fare. For instance something like this:



I would also include your Trainline booking confirmation if that included a "suggested" train or similar.

If you want to post a draft appeal letter/email please do feel free to do so and I'm sure members will be happy to assist you with wording or similar. But your ticket was valid at that time and Northern should not have charged a Penalty Fare.

 

[Kite159]

Also contact your local MP & the local media in case they are interested in another case of the hopeless Northern making it up as they go along.

No doubt the first appeal will get automatically get rejected and you get given some rubbish in response.

 

[jfollows]

Even if it wasn't valid you can't be penalty fared for off-peak at peak time.

Thank you, that confirms what I thought.
So Escooter230 bought a £2.70 ticket, was wrongly told that it wasn't valid even though it was, and was wrongly given a £100 penalty fare, which now has to be appealed, which will involve some rigmarole ending up in some kind of acceptance that it was wrong I'm sure. If the off-peak ticket had been invalid then the right action would have been an excess fare of 50p or even 25p (50% of the fare difference).
So next time Escooter230 wants to travel, maybe a taxi would be a better idea because it's cheaper than the train when you factor in all the hassle now involved? And how many people who aren't lucky enough to know about this forum would pay up the £100 to avoid a criminal record?
Anyway, this doesn't help directly - good luck in complaining to Northern and getting the penalty fare withdrawn and please make use of the offer of helping with the letter if you feel it's useful.

 

[yorkie]

Furthermore, and this is hypothetical because I know the ticket was valid for travel, if it weren't, would not a "penalty fare" be incorrect and excessive here too? The only thing that should be done is to charge the difference between the "off-peak" and "peak" fares. Or is that actually what happened? Whatever the case, it's clearly wrong and a stiff appeal should be made.

I agree.

Northern are acting unlawfully by reneging on the contract as well as issuing a Penalty Fare for a reason that is not a valid reason for issuing a PF (this was made explicitly clear under the Penalty Fares Rules but it's less clear now, as you have to refer to the NRCoT to determine the remedy would be an excess fare)

Am I susprised at this behaviour? Not one bit, sadly.

 

[jfollows]

For reference (https://assets.ctfassets.net/e8xgeg...e9b4e6/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf):

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So 50p I think had the ticket here not been valid.

I hate these afternoon ticket restrictions, but the one consolation I've had so far is that I can only be charged the fare difference should my plans change and I end up travelling when the ticket is no longer valid. Given that it's likely to be someone working for Northern with whom I will have the conversation, this thread makes me more concerned that they might try and hit me with a penalty fare instead.

 

[Escooter230]

Here is the penalty fare. I notices that they've put 'other' as a reason so I guess the system doesn't even have peak time as a reason. I'll write an appeal letter and post it here before I send it.

 

[yorkie]

Here is the penalty fare. I notices that they've put 'other' as a reason so I guess the system doesn't even have peak time as a reason. I'll write an appeal letter and post it here before I send it.

Indeed; it's not a legitimate reason, but I've seen it happen before. There are insufficient safeguards in place to prevent train companies acting incorrectly and unlawfully.
Anyway, please do let us know how you get on.

 

[furlong]

Under the current regulations, only the £50 or £100 element of a Penalty Fare is covered by the appeal. If you win your appeal the £3.70 remains due and you still have to pay that.
So as well as entering an appeal within the system, you need to contact the train company to persuade them to accept it is null and void (and so any appeal is irrelevant) as it was not issued in accordance with the law.

 

[Escooter230]

What do you think of this letter?

"I am writing to appeal a penalty fare received on the 25th May 2023 at Warrington Central station. I purchased an off-peak return ticket using the Trainline app for £2.70 with a 26-30 railcard. The ticket was purchased at 16:20 and I boarded the 16:28 Northern service from Warrington West station to Warrington Central station. Upon arriving at Warrington Central I was told that the ticket was invalid because it was an off-peak ticket and it was past 1600. I was issued with a penalty fare.

I am appealing the penalty fare on the grounds that the penalty fare was not issued in compliance with the Penalty Fare Regulations as the ticket was valid for the train and time that it was used and should therefore be withdrawn. Peak-time restrictions only apply to this ticket between 0429 and 0930 between Monday and Friday. Restrictions do not apply to this ticket in the evening as it has restriction code B1. Furthermore, I have looked on the Northern website and identical tickets are available for purchase on other days for 1628 service which are listed at the same price of £2.70.

In addition to the ticket being valid, it is not appropriate for a penalty fare to be issued in the case of an off-peak ticket being used at peak times. According to the Northern website FAQ:

“We will do everything we can to help you make sure you have the right ticket for your journey. If for any reason this doesn’t happen please visit your local booking office to pay the difference. If your local station does not have a booking office you will be able to pay the difference to the conductor on board.”

Therefore even if the ticket had been invalid I would have been able to pay the difference in price between the off-peak and peak ticket.

I am attaching screenshots of the ticket and the Northern website showing that identical tickets can be purchased there and are valid."

 

[jfollows]

Some of this is my personal preference and/or style, so feel free to ignore as much of it as you don't like, but I think you need to spell this out to them because they have a habit of reading things too quickly and missing the point.
I would also refer to the National Rail Conditions of Travel rather than Northern's Web site; railway operating companies put any old guff on their Web sites and are quite often simply wrong anyway.

So I'd suggest something like:

I am writing to appeal a penalty fare received on the 25th May 2023 at Warrington Central station for two reasons:

1. The ticket I was using was valid when I used it, and I was incorrectly told that it was invalid.
2. Even if the ticket had been invalid as your staff claimed, the National Rail Conditions of Travel dictate that a Penalty Fare should not be issued.

I purchased an off-peak day return ticket from Warrington West to Warrington Central using the Trainline app for £2.70 with a 26-30 railcard. The ticket was purchased at 16:20 and I boarded the 16:28 Northern service from Warrington West station to Warrington Central station.

Upon arriving at Warrington Central I was told that the ticket was invalid because it was an off-peak ticket and it was past 1600. I was issued with a penalty fare for £103.70 by "Authorised Collector CSS119861" on the grounds that "Off peak not valid at this time".

The off-peak day return ticket from Warrington West to Warrington Central is restricted with restriction code B1, "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.". It is clearly valid after 16:00 on the day of purchase when I used it.

In addition to the ticket being valid, it is also not appropriate for a penalty fare to be issued in the case of an off-peak ticket being used at peak times. According to the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

"9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using."

Will you please therefore do two things:

1. Withdraw the penalty fare completely and confirm to me that I owe you no money and that the matter is closed.
2. Inform your staff working at Warrington Central on how to properly identify tickets which are valid when they are used, and when they should correctly issue penalty fares.

I am attaching screenshots of the ticket from the Northern website showing the validity of the ticket purchased on the train I used.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Furthermore, and this is hypothetical because I know the ticket was valid for travel, if it weren't, would not a "penalty fare" be incorrect and excessive here too? The only thing that should be done is to charge the difference between the "off-peak" and "peak" fares. Or is that actually what happened? Whatever the case, it's clearly wrong and a stiff appeal should be made.

Totally agree with you that a penalty fare is excessive here, if the ticket had been invalid (and has been proven otherwise so a point being made here) exceeding to the correct amount should have been the right action

Ive noticed from the paper stock and issuing officers number that it’s from CSS (Carlisle Support Services), they don’t tend to have the ability or equipment to sell tickets, they can, as far as I know, only issue TIR, penalty fares and unpaid fares notices (perhaps the latter would have been more appropriate and the OP could have dealt directly with Northern DRPU on this, rather than appealing a penalty)

This is unfortunate and I hope gets resolved for the OP

 

[30907]

All entirely correct. Might I suggest, though, that you take two bites at this?

1. Appeal the PF on the single ground that you had a valid ticket.

2. Write a separate complaint to Northern covering the whole topic once the PF has been withdrawn.

My suspicion is that raising two (valid) issues will confuse the process and delay the withdrawal.

 

[jfollows]

Ive noticed from the paper stock and issuing officers number that it’s from CSS (Carlisle Support Services)

Thank you, that goes some way to explaining this, since Carlisle Support Services "has form" for treating people badly and being unable to recognise valid tickets. It'd be important, therefore, to include the issuing number in the letter as I previously suggested.
I hope it gets resolved quickly too. As others have said already, it's disappointing but not surprising for this sort of thing to happen. Talk about putting people off rail travel! They push you towards buying tickets online, and when you do so correctly you suddenly find yourself accused of a criminal offence and having to pay £100.

 

[dosxuk]

All entirely correct. Might I suggest, though, that you take two bites at this?

1. Appeal the PF on the single ground that you had a valid ticket.

2. Write a separate complaint to Northern covering the whole topic once the PF has been withdrawn.

My suspicion is that raising two (valid) issues will confuse the process and delay the withdrawal.

Agreed - get rid of the PF first, then deal with the underlying issue. I would also be including an expectation (not demand!) of compensation in my complaint due to the time that has had to be spent sorting out something that should never have happened.

 

[RPI]

Under the current regulations, only the £50 or £100 element of a Penalty Fare is covered by the appeal. If you win your appeal the £3.70 remains due and you still have to pay that.
So as well as entering an appeal within the system, you need to contact the train company to persuade them to accept it is null and void (and so any appeal is irrelevant) as it was not issued in accordance with the law.

Its a little ambiguous, but I believe in this case (and forgotten railcards) the whole notice would be cancelled, the original ticket number should have been noted on the PF notice and if it was a paper ticket this should have been withdrawn and attached to the Northern copy of the notice.

 

[ainsworth74]

All entirely correct. Might I suggest, though, that you take two bites at this?

1. Appeal the PF on the single ground that you had a valid ticket.

2. Write a separate complaint to Northern covering the whole topic once the PF has been withdrawn.

My suspicion is that raising two (valid) issues will confuse the process and delay the withdrawal.

Absolutely.

The appeal is going to the independent appeal panel not Northern. They have no ability to deal with a complaint about Northern's handling of the case. Focus the first letter to just appealing the penalty fare on the basis that a valid ticket was held. Then, once the appeal is concluded, complain to Northern separately.

 

[bob007]

Pity it's not possible for the OP to charge Northern £100 (or £50 if paid promptly) as a contribution towards personal administration expenses in appealing the apparently incorrectly issued Penalty Fare!

IANAL

There’s nothing stopping you sending them an invoice.

Of course they’ll probably ignore then you could go to the small claims court if you can prove damages and are willing to pay the court expenses.

 

[Watershed]

IANAL

There’s nothing stopping you sending them an invoice.

Of course they’ll probably ignore then you could go to the small claims court if you can prove damages and are willing to pay the court expenses.

An invoice for administration costs would have no legal basis. It's perhaps a little more likely that you'd have a claim for breach of the GDPR for unlawfully demanding personal data, although even that wouldn't necessarily be open and shut. GDPR breaches open up the door to non-material damages, including distress and inconvenience.

 

[bob007]

An invoice for administration costs would have no legal basis. It's perhaps a little more likely that you'd have a claim for breach of the GDPR for unlawfully demanding personal data, although even that wouldn't necessarily be open and shut. GDPR breaches open up the door to non-material damages, including distress and inconvenience.

True, but I didn't say it would have a legal basis, and even said it would probably be ignored (companies are quite used to ignoring invoices for cash flow purposes anyway!). The TOC would likely interpret it as a childish invitation for an ex gratia payment, and would be doubly ignored.

 

[scrapy]

Ive noticed from the paper stock and issuing officers number that it’s from CSS (Carlisle Support Services), they don’t tend to have the ability or equipment to sell tickets, they can, as far as I know, only issue TIR, penalty fares and unpaid fares notices (perhaps the latter would have been more appropriate and the OP could have dealt directly with Northern DRPU on this, rather than appealing a penalty)

An unpaid fares notice would not be the correct course of action.

A UPFN is a legal document whereby the passenger admits a debt is due to the rail company and by signing the document is agreeing to pay the sum. If there is any doubt over the sum due a UPFN should not be issued and a passenger certainly should not sign if they do not agree to pay the sum within 21 days. I suppose the passenger could write on the notice that they dispute the fare due before signing but as the notice is sent electronically they may still encounter difficulties unless the photo is checked

 

[Escooter230]

I've sent of the appeal now, I used what was recommended above but I had to cut it down a bit to fit the character limit. I'll update when i hear back. Thanks for the help.