McGill's Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and Eastern Scottish)

[overthewater]

People in Newbridge can and do travel on X51 to Livingston. However going by the loading can people really say there even a demand from Corstorphine to livingston?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

People in Newbridge can and do travel on X51 to Livingston. However going by the loading can people really say there even a demand from Corstorphine to livingston?

I’d say it’s the odd person or two at most off peak. It’s probably a secondary connection outside of peak hours. The X24 is the only bus along that corridor now to do such a route and I’d say it’s usually a quiet bus off peak. I’d say the A71 corridor is definitely much busier now.

I doubt very much this network will last, something else will give. However I do think they’ll eventually find the balance and that’ll be what they stick with long term.

Regarding the Lothian Country/McGill’s competition. For me any suggestion of either company still attempting to get rid of the other is just living in fantasy land now. Neither have the network nor the resources to do it and if I’m honest I doubt either ever will again. Lothian Country has definitely attempted to stabilise better than McGill’s have, mostly caused by the fact they scaled back first. As I’ve said countless times before I’d be amazed if McGill’s intend on retaining the Edinburgh contracts. The whole set up of the depot makes it seem like they are a logical inconvenience to run and that they simply have them as they already had them and not because they want them.

Things will change again from both companies as time goes on, but I doubt it will be to any positivity.

 

[Ding Ding]

They've managed without McGill's Eastern Sunday and evening services. Would withdrawing the rest (or spreading contracts amongst other operators) make that much difference, especially if passenger numbers are so low?

This is a very good point. When it was announced that McGill's would no longer be providing services, early morning, late evenings, and Sundays, there was an uproar. It appeared every man and his dog used these services to get to work, school, and hospital appointments, seeing sick relatives, you get the picture. The reality is that yes, some people do absolutely rely on the bus for these trips, but nowhere near the thousands that say they use the bus on a daily basis and would be unable to get to work etc. The figures don't stack up, and McGill's and the other bus companies have these figures on a daily basis; they know exactly how many passengers they carry. No amount of petitions, signed by anyone that walks past the petition, is going to change that. Fictitious figures don't generate profits; it's bums on seats.

The only thing that I can see that has happened, is that Lothian have picked up the passengers that no longer have the option of a bus from McGill's, and The Centre is free from gangs of feral youths hanging about late at night because they no longer have the option of a bus home to quite a few salubrious areas, so they can't all meet up.

West Lothian also has a high number of cars per household, and I think this has helped mitigate the cuts to services. People are just using their cars more, or have found alternative means to get to where they need to be.

It turns out that the bus companies actually know where and when people use their services, and have adjusted their networks accordingly. I don't think it will change, unless there is a radical reversal in bus usage, or the magic money tree is given a massive shake by government. I think we know that's not going to happen.

 

[roadierway77]

They've managed without McGill's Eastern Sunday and evening services. Would withdrawing the rest (or spreading contracts amongst other operators) make that much difference, especially if passenger numbers are so low?

There's a major difference between having somewhat limited options at certain times of the week and having no options at all times. West Lothian isn't going to be left without a local bus service.

This is a very good point. When it was announced that McGill's would no longer be providing services, early morning, late evenings, and Sundays, there was an uproar. It appeared every man and his dog used these services to get to work, school, and hospital appointments, seeing sick relatives, you get the picture. The reality is that yes, some people do absolutely rely on the bus for these trips, but nowhere near the thousands that say they use the bus on a daily basis and would be unable to get to work etc. The figures don't stack up, and McGill's and the other bus companies have these figures on a daily basis; they know exactly how many passengers they carry. No amount of petitions, signed by anyone that walks past the petition, is going to change that. Fictitious figures don't generate profits; it's bums on seats.

The only thing that I can see that has happened, is that Lothian have picked up the passengers that no longer have the option of a bus from McGill's, and The Centre is free from gangs of feral youths hanging about late at night because they no longer have the option of a bus home to quite a few salubrious areas, so they can't all meet up.

West Lothian also has a high number of cars per household, and I think this has helped mitigate the cuts to services. People are just using their cars more, or have found alternative means to get to where they need to be.

It turns out that the bus companies actually know where and when people use their services, and have adjusted their networks accordingly. I don't think it will change, unless there is a radical reversal in bus usage, or the magic money tree is given a massive shake by government. I think we know that's not going to happen.

I've stated this before and while it is going off topic, all of this just proves to me how privately operated public transport doesn't work. It's not entirely the fault of McGill's - as a commercial entity, they need to make money, but this means that the interests and needs of the public are never truly going to be put first, as much as McGill's and other operators may try to convince us otherwise, and to me the public should be at heart of buses and other transport modes; it's called public transport for a reason.

There may not be a magic money tree, but if smaller nations such as the Netherlands and Ireland can afford to support nationalised or somewhat nationalised bus services, then there is no reason why Scotland could not do the same. West Lothian could be the perfect place for this to start, with the Government sitting down with the council and all bus operators to devise a mostly-subsidised network that is the best value for money, that is effectively and efficiently promoted, and that necessitates the improvements to Livingston's road network to better prioritise public transport and discourage car usage, and not one that throws funds at pointless services such as Horsburgh’s X40 and whose best attempt at promotion is handing out cakes at The Centre. Livingston is never going to see high levels of bus usage, however so much more could be done to make a loss-making operation more profitable while also somewhat avoiding mass cuts and steep fare increases.

But unfortunately, I doubt this will ever happen. If Eastern Scottish is run into the ground, then the bus users of West Lothian will only face a worse, more fragmented service - it evokes the situation in Coatbridge, where bad business decisions led a once unified network to be split amongst numerous smaller operators.

 

[smtglasgow]

Those who think that Lothian Country will step up to the mark if McGill's were to close Eastern Scottish are, frankly, living in cloud cuckoo land.

I wouldn’t normally disagree with DunsBus, but if McGills did pull out (still seems unlikely), Lothian would be mad not to cherrypick the best corridors. There’s still money to be made in West Lothian. The real danger though is that with unreliable daytime services and no late evening/Sunday services, some passengers will be lost forever – they’ll buy a car, cough up for the train, or even change jobs. It seems inevitable that whoever is running the buses in a year or two, the network will have shrunk further – McGills have done a lot of harm with their cuts.

I genuinely thought that when McGills bought First they would make Lothian an offer to get them out of Livingston – McGills have a history of not tolerating competition. That hasn’t happened but there isn’t the business for two companies – even if direct competition is minimal now. If McGills are staying in West Lothian they’ll have to pull out of the Edinburgh routes and contracts (keeping the tours, of course), but that would be a small operation in a large depot, so hard to cover the overheads.

I guess McGills will try and stabilise things and maybe give Alex Hornby a chance to work his magic, but from a distance it looks like an operation that’s haemorrhaging cash. McGills have been quick to get out of some of their poorer decisions (Vale of Leven, Monklands), so it’ll be interesting to see how long they give Livingston.

 

[Ding Ding]

I wouldn’t normally disagree with DunsBus, but if McGills did pull out (still seems unlikely), Lothian would be mad not to cherrypick the best corridors. There’s still money to be made in West Lothian. The real danger though is that with unreliable daytime services and no late evening/Sunday services, some passengers will be lost forever – they’ll buy a car, cough up for the train, or even change jobs. It seems inevitable that whoever is running the buses in a year or two, the network will have shrunk further – McGills have done a lot of harm with their cuts.

I genuinely thought that when McGills bought First they would make Lothian an offer to get them out of Livingston – McGills have a history of not tolerating competition. That hasn’t happened but there isn’t the business for two companies – even if direct competition is minimal now. If McGills are staying in West Lothian they’ll have to pull out of the Edinburgh routes and contracts (keeping the tours, of course), but that would be a small operation in a large depot, so hard to cover the overheads.

I guess McGills will try and stabilise things and maybe give Alex Hornby a chance to work his magic, but from a distance it looks like an operation that’s haemorrhaging cash. McGills have been quick to get out of some of their poorer decisions (Vale of Leven, Monklands), so it’ll be interesting to see how long they give Livingston.

Whether McGill's pull out or not, Lothian have neither the buses or the staff to cover any withdrawal of services. If it did come to pass, Lothian would only be able to tweak some services, but even that would be a struggle, given what I've just stated. People have said, "ah but the staff and vehicles will transfer over". Firstly, the vehicles apart from a few newly painted buses are scrap. Secondly, the staff transfer is debatable - would Lothian employ them en masse? They don't know who they are getting, and this is no sleight on who is employed at McGill's.

As far as McGill's making Lothian an offer to "get out of Livingston", it's just laughable. Lothian don't do walking away. I think people think that Lothian made the decision to service West Lothian on a whim. The buses for the operation were bought quite some time before the announcement that they would begin operating in West Lothian. Management had to be put in place, premises had to be sourced etc. Lothian obviously have a long term plan for West Lothian given the amount of money and resources put into this operation, and it must also be said that West Lothian Council have a 1% share in the company, and will at least be able to have their say on certain things they would like the company to take on board. It will carry a tiny bit of weight, not much, but at least they have that opportunity to maybe influence things.

It is a fact, that there will never be enough passengers to make both companies a profit and at some point something will have to give.
First sold their business for one reason; it wasn't making money. I think, and I could be wrong, McGill's saw an opportunity for expansion and were too eager to make the move. I think they have found an area with no room for passenger expansion, and a company in Lothian who can't be bought off. The one saving grace is that Bright Bus Tours is probably making money, so it means they can concentrate on that.

It remains to be seen what transpires.

 

[stevenedin]

I’m thinking that maybe First weren’t willing to sell unless it was the whole of First Scotland East and Midland Bluebird so McGill’s took a risk due to the fact that Bright Bus Tours was successful. It seems like it has possibly been a bad business decision.

If the driver shortages weren’t a thing, they may have just broken even but it is likely to be making a loss now.

This is just my opinion and not fact.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I’m thinking that maybe First weren’t willing to sell unless it was the whole of First Scotland East and Midland Bluebird so McGill’s took a risk due to the fact that Bright Bus Tours was successful. It seems like it has possibly been a bad business decision.

If the driver shortages weren’t a thing, they may have just broken even but it is likely to be making a loss now.

This is just my opinion and not fact.

The main reason First were unwilling to sell was due to the growth in profits they had been seeing in the area from 2016 through to 2019. Of course the West Lothian "bus war" combined with Covid and the staff shortages changed the situation significantly and hence the sale started to become a considered prospect and eventually a reality.

I agree with your first point though. First wouldn't want to sell Midland Bluebird and keep West Lothian and likewise any potential buyer would've been unwilling to take West Lothian but not Midland Bluebird - so it was a case of all or nothing.

 

[smtglasgow]

As far as McGill's making Lothian an offer to "get out of Livingston", it's just laughable. Lothian don't do walking away.

I’m not saying Lothian would have entertained an approach, but McGills history is full of acquisitions – they bought out countless operators in Inverclyde, Renfrewshire and Monklands to become the dominant player. It’s what they do. And saying Lothian won’t give up territory is a moot point. Up until now they’ve been pushing at an open door when expanding – both Midlothian and East Lothian are obvious success stories. You can’t say that about Livingston. They were smart to shrink the operation when they did, but you can’t ignore the fact their West Lothian network is a shadow of what it was.

Having said that, Lothian seem to have got themselves into a good position - running a full day seven day a week operation without too many cancellations seems quite impressive compared to McGIlls.

The driver shortages are a real problem - too many alternatives - but *if* McGills did decide to pull out, Lothian would only really be interested in a few corridors, it wouldn't be a like for like replacement. They seized the opportunities when First closed Dalkeith and Musselburgh; they would find a way to gain the money-making parts of the West Lothian network.

McGill's saw an opportunity for expansion and were too eager to make the move.

I don’t think McGills lack self-confidence! – I’m sure they thought they would be able to turn things around. And perhaps they will – they run an efficient, profitable operation in the west and have an impressive track record in fleet investment. But at the moment their Livingston operation is underwhelming.

 

[Ding Ding]

I’m not saying Lothian would have entertained an approach, but McGills history is full of acquisitions – they bought out countless operators in Inverclyde, Renfrewshire and Monklands to become the dominant player. It’s what they do. And saying Lothian won’t give up territory is a moot point. Up until now they’ve been pushing at an open door when expanding – both Midlothian and East Lothian are obvious success stories. You can’t say that about Livingston. They were smart to shrink the operation when they did, but you can’t ignore the fact their West Lothian network is a shadow of what it was.

Being the fact that Lothian are a municipal bus company, albeit privately run, they are owned by the various councils under transport for Edinburgh, via a share of the business. I therefore don't think the system of acquisitions that McGill's have adopted, would be entertained by Lothian, or the Councils. The acquisitions that McGill's have made in the past, were predominantly smaller privately owned companies who would have been grateful for the cash and run for the hills.

The reason Lothian reduced their network, was down to a lack of drivers. The services they ran were becoming unreliable and buses were being cancelled for this reason. They decided to withdraw two services all together, and paired back another. This enabled them to concentrate on the services they now provide, which has stabilized their operation. If they had not done this, they would have been in the same position as First was, cancelling services, and ultimately letting the travelling public down.

At the end of the day, and it has been said by many people on this Forum, there is not enough passengers to keep two companies going, that will not change.

 

[overthewater]

Its clear to everyone that First sold everything as a job lot, and McGill's weren't going to get Bright bus tours without taking Livingston depot route. The true state of affairs is, no one is winning and Lothian hasn't seen the success they were hoping for.

 

[roadierway77]

In other news, a Mellor Sigma 10 demonstrator is out today on the 6. According to a user on the McGill’s enthusiast Facebook group, it seems to be tracking as 4107.

 

[Mullac321]

In other news, a Mellor Sigma 10 demonstrator is out today on the 6. According to a user on the McGill’s enthusiast Facebook group, it seems to be tracking as 4107.

Was taken out of service around half 1 today as it was needing recharged

 

[GusB]

I have removed a number of posts that were off-topic. Congestion, while having an effect on bus services, is not the topic of the thread and should be discussed elsewhere. Likewise, this is not the place for discussing car use.

 

[PaulMc7]

In other news, a Mellor Sigma 10 demonstrator is out today on the 6. According to a user on the McGill’s enthusiast Facebook group, it seems to be tracking as 4107.

It's good to see McGill's taking a shot of something different as the Mellor Sigma 10 looks like a decent bus. I still believe that when the infrastructure is in place at any of the depots, it'll be Yutongs they go with due to their success in Renfrewshire and Inverclyde as well as the range offered with the Yutongs. The Yutongs are also very good from a passenger point of view. I've only used them 3 times but all 3 journeys were very comfortable.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Its clear to everyone that First sold everything as a job lot, and McGill's weren't going to get Bright bus tours without taking Livingston depot route. The true state of affairs is, no one is winning and Lothian hasn't seen the success they were hoping for.

Similarly to Cumbernauld being a “new town” you could almost say that the objective with Livingston was to create another Pro-Car town!

The walking that’s to be done to even get to buses in Livingston is a no go, Brexit, Covid and all these rhetorics aside.

First left Livingston in a sheer mess, disgruntled employees of First at the time ran when Lothian Country came on the scene for higher pay and vehicles that were in better condition.

This has remained true, but Livingston just isn’t great bus operating territory.

On a side note Lothian had so much success with Musselburgh because it already has a positive foot within Musselburgh with its 30 route.

 

[roadierway77]

Similarly to Cumbernauld being a “new town” you could almost say that the objective with Livingston was to create another Pro-Car town!

The walking that’s to be done to even get to buses in Livingston is a no go, Brexit, Covid and all these rhetorics aside.

As an urban planning student, the design of Livingston's road network hurts my soul - it'll be a major contributing factor to low passenger numbers. Efficient bus services just aren't possible due to the cul-de-sac nature of the estates, and if one is of driving age, the grid of distributor roads makes using the car just too easy. To be honest, a lot of new housing estates aren't that different - bus provision is too often an afterthought.

 

[stevenedin]

As an urban planning student, the design of Livingston's road network hurts my soul - it'll be a major contributing factor to low passenger numbers. Efficient bus services just aren't possible due to the cul-de-sac nature of the estates, and if one is of driving age, the grid of distributor roads makes using the car just too easy. To be honest, a lot of new housing estates aren't that different - bus provision is too often an afterthought.

I have indicated this in the past and completely agree with you.

 

[PaulMc7]

As an urban planning student, the design of Livingston's road network hurts my soul - it'll be a major contributing factor to low passenger numbers. Efficient bus services just aren't possible due to the cul-de-sac nature of the estates, and if one is of driving age, the grid of distributor roads makes using the car just too easy. To be honest, a lot of new housing estates aren't that different - bus provision is too often an afterthought.

In terms of everywhere I've been in my life, Livingston has the worst road network and with the exception of Cumbernauld, nowhere comes close. It wasn't mentioned when I contacted McGill's directly about the challenges that they faced when they first took over but the geographical setup of West Lothian was mentioned to others who have been more affected by the current situation. I don't know the exact words that were said as I don't have access to private messages sent to others but I'm not remotely surprised that it was mentioned as a challenge and I think the general public seriously underestimate the effects of it. Bus networks will never succeed without being catered to properly in terms of funding and infrastructure.

 

[delt1c]

A lot has been said about Livingston and West Lothian being a no hope , however what is needed is for an operator to sit down with a clean sheet and look at demand then plan routes around demand.
The McGills service from Edinburgh to Livingston ( and return) must be loosing a fortune as rarely double figure passengers off peak, yet the lothian service has a reasonable patronage, now if i was McGills i would be asking what are they doing wrong, before anyone shoots me down use this corridor regularly and will always take lothian if possible.

 

[DunsBus]

Similarly to Cumbernauld being a “new town” you could almost say that the objective with Livingston was to create another Pro-Car town!

The walking that’s to be done to even get to buses in Livingston is a no go, Brexit, Covid and all these rhetorics aside.

First left Livingston in a sheer mess, disgruntled employees of First at the time ran when Lothian Country came on the scene for higher pay and vehicles that were in better condition.

This has remained true, but Livingston just isn’t great bus operating territory.

On a side note Lothian had so much success with Musselburgh because it already has a positive foot within Musselburgh with its 30 route.

Lothian were running to Musselburgh long before the 30 started. It was one of the first areas which the then LRT, Lothian Region Transport, expanded into at deregulation in 1986.

 

[roadierway77]

The McGills service from Edinburgh to Livingston ( and return) must be loosing a fortune as rarely double figure passengers off peak, yet the lothian service has a reasonable patronage, now if i was McGills i would be asking what are they doing wrong, before anyone shoots me down use this corridor regularly and will always take lothian if possible.

I'd say the big benefit of using Lothian Country buses to Edinburgh from Livingston instead of McGill's is that you can very easily buy a singular ticket that gives one travel on not just the X18/X27/X28 but also all of Lothian's city services for only £8.30 - very useful to customers who wish to travel outwith the catchment areas of the express routes. Now if One Ticket was better promoted, I imagine McGill's Edinburgh services would see a few more passengers, but neither operator make any effort to promote it and I imagine very few regular travellers know about it. Thus most fare-paying passengers will choose to either use LCB or McGill's and not both, and as LCB run at a higher frequency, have nicer vehicles, and sell tickets that enable access to the city services, it's fairly clear to me why they seem to be getting better loadings.

 

[delt1c]

I'd say the big benefit of using Lothian Country buses to Edinburgh from Livingston instead of McGill's is that you can very easily buy a singular ticket that gives one travel on not just the X18/X27/X28 but also all of Lothian's city services for only £8.30 - very useful to customers who wish to travel outwith the catchment areas of the express routes. Now if One Ticket was better promoted, I imagine McGill's Edinburgh services would see a few more passengers, but neither operator make any effort to promote it and I imagine very few regular travellers know about it. Thus most fare-paying passengers will choose to either use LCB or McGill's and not both, and as LCB run at a higher frequency, have nicer vehicles, and sell tickets that enable access to the city services, it's fairly clear to me why they seem to be getting better loadings.

I rest my case. McGills are doing little or nothing to imply their image in the West Lothian area.

 

[Voyager lad]

https://twitter.com/alexhornbybus/status/1671913245832015873?s=46&t=jLkBOzCly9Oj2KMQevv9hw

We continue to develop our #MidlandBluebird company in our quest for customer growth: the next set of changes sees a key route in Falkirk doubled, new cross-town links to Forth Valley Hospital and a big upgrade in buses to/from Glasgow. Better times are on the way from 13 August!

Just tweeted by Alex Hornby! Falkirk network change on 13th August. Really hoping more details become available soon

 

[PaulMc7]

https://twitter.com/alexhornbybus/status/1671913245832015873?s=46&t=jLkBOzCly9Oj2KMQevv9hw



Just tweeted by Alex Hornby! Falkirk network change on 13th August. Really hoping more details become available soon

I'm intrigued to know what this involves as it'll be the first changes to anywhere that aren't likely to be negatives. The registrations should start appearing on VOSA soon given the length of time until August 13th and hopefully the new timetables/service details aren't too far behind.

Hopefully one day we can see this positivity about the rest of their purchased network although it seems bleak at the moment in West Lothian. The X36 coming into Glasgow from Stirling always seems to be seeing great passenger loads when I've seen it with either no seats or very few left.

 

[roadierway77]

https://twitter.com/alexhornbybus/status/1671913245832015873?s=46&t=jLkBOzCly9Oj2KMQevv9hw



Just tweeted by Alex Hornby! Falkirk network change on 13th August. Really hoping more details become available soon

Good news. I would guess that it's either the 1 or 6 that'll be doubled. Also seems to show the driver situation in Bluebird is stabilising.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I would guess that it's either the 1 or 6 that'll be doubled.

I think it’s more likely to be the 3/4 that are doubled. They’re still hourly.

I wonder if ‘new links’ might be new routes?

 

[PaulMc7]

I think it’s more likely to be the 3/4 that are doubled. They’re still hourly.

I wonder if ‘new links’ might be new routes?

I wonder if they'd consider bringing back the X35 that First used to run. The base of it is still there with the 35 anyway. It'll also be interesting to see what the hospital links involve. Currently, they only offer the 6/7/8 then the 38, H1/H2. I also wonder if the X38 will increase at any point.

 

[roadierway77]

I think it’s more likely to be the 3/4 that are doubled. They’re still hourly.

I wonder if ‘new links’ might be new routes?

Very true - they could both definitely benefit from a frequency increase. Hornby did only say 'route' singular though but perhaps he's referring to both the 3/4 as one

 

[overthewater]

Either way it's clear as day where McGill believe there is a chance of growth within the old First Scotland East Empire. I welcome any improvements. I think 3/4 is the route that will get double and I think the new cross town link to Forth Valley hospital will be No1 from Maddiston

Edit: There is post on Facebook now saying

* No3/4 will be double.
* Looks like No2 will be going to Forth Valley Hospital as the new route to Hospital come form Bo'ness.
* New buses coming for Glasgow Express.

Mod note: Please include a link to the Facebook post and a quote from it. Thanks