Ticket office closures

[MikeWM]

I went to the site, chose "refunds", entered the booking reference and email, chose the reason for the request (disruption), and asked for a refund. It was authorised a few hours later and the money arrived a day or two after that. Easy peasy and all done from the convenience of my sofa.

'A day or two' could cause issues for those who are very tight on money though, and it is significantly less appealing than having the money back in my pocket immediately as I did this morning. And you don't have to remember to check you've got it back, go through the ever-more-complex hoops to access your online banking, etc. etc.

And it isn't really a reason to retain ticket offices at every station that currently has one (though Ely is one of those station where I'd think that keeping a staff presence, even if not a traditional ticket office, makes sense).

Not that alone, no, it is more of an ancillary benefit of having an open ticket office. I do think there are more than enough *other* reasons to retain a ticket office at Ely specifically, and those reasons would apply in a lot of other places too.

 

[ainsworth74]

'A day or two' could cause issues for those who are very tight on money though, and it is significantly less appealing than having the money back in my pocket immediately as I did this morning.

So in this hypothetical they bought a ticket they couldn't actually afford as it's only due to disruption they're getting the money back in the first place?

And you don't have to remember to check you've got it back, go through the ever-more-complex hoops to access your online banking, etc. etc.

I got a notification on my phone telling me that I had received a credit for the amount expected. No checking necessary.

I appreciate that you prefer to interact on a cash basis so that you cannot be tracked but the majority of people are quite happy and indeed prefer not doing so through cash and using online payments/banking and similar.

 

[AdamWW]

But then where's the saving? The cost of maintaining one computer with a ticket printer is going to be significantly less than the cost of employing the member of staff. And if the plan is to find alternative uses for the ticket office building to generate revenue it'll be difficult to keep anything for the staff there.

Well if the government thinks (as in the original story) "[the] public would be better served by moving staff from offices to broader roles on station concourses" then it makes sense.

Though I'm not sure what the difference is between having someone based in the ticket office but who leaves it to do various other tasks round the station and having them not sitting behind a counter even when they have nothing else to do.

But as you say where's the saving so presumably there is a bit more to it than that.

 

[northwichcat]

So in this hypothetical they bought a ticket they couldn't actually afford as it's only due to disruption they're getting the money back in the first place?

One case I know about is some people had Hartford to London tickets. Due to some disruption that wasn't expected to be resolved for hours they had to travel from Greenbank instead. I don't know if their tickets were accepted from the wrong station, or whether they had to buy new ones and claim refunds on the unused ones. If they had to buy new tickets then it might be a problem if their refunds for the unused tickets too long.

 

[Chucky]

I can already see how this will go on our patch. We have a large number of stations that have only 1 multiskilled colleague. They clean the toilets, platforms etc, lock and unlock the station, man the ticket office, and at some stations dispatch trains. Since they are the only person at these stations the only way this proposal can save any money is to get rid and leave the station unmanned. How else could this proposal save money at these sites?

This is my fear too. It's all well and good getting the former ticket office staff out and about with iPads selling tickets and showing people how to use the machines at busy stations, but at smaller stations which are single-manned with a half hourly or hourly service what's going to happen?

I fear these stations are where we'll see the biggest issues. I can only assume the plan is for them to be left totally unstaffed (as many already are) permanently. Side effects will include closure of warm, secure waiting facilities (the ticket office), loss of toilets that were formerly cleaned and checked by the lone staff member, a general downturn in upkeep and ambience of the station as many staff go to great lengths to improve their stations with floral displays, book exchanges, community projects etc.

Modernisation is fine and necessary, and I totally get the arguments that less people are using ticket offices, but as Scott1 says, there's no real saving in closing the booking office if you aren't laying off the staff who work in it. After all, if you are going to keep the staff and accomodation for them (which is usually in the ticket office itself), you might as well keep the window open and let them sell tickets from it.

I fear we'll see many more unstaffed and unwelcoming stations as a result of this scheme.

 

[Bald Rick]

What do people do at barriers? Just show one of the tickets and all waltz through the wide one?

I've seen people being told they aren't allowed to do that - one person, one ticket.

one through, swipe to next ticket, next through, etc.

It strikes (perhaps a poor choice of word ) me that the extremes on both sides of this issue are extremely unhelpful and, to be honest, likely to be a detriment to everyone.

Is it correct that ticket offices play a significantly reduced role in issuing tickets? Yes, unarguably so. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being daft all the numbers tell us that fewer tickets are being sold by ticket offices to fewer passengers.

Is it correct that still, in some situations, ticket offices play an important role in retail matters? Yes, unarguably so. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being daft and everyone can think of situations where a member of staff with detailed training on retailing tickets will be the best way for a passenger to access the railway. Whether that's granny Smith going from Bognor Regis to visit the grandchildren in Bolton needing a ticket clerk to help sort out her reservations and tickets, a member of railway staff wanting to buy a Priv rate ticket, a tourist fresh of the plane with no knowledge of the UK railway network or an enthusiast after a rover or ranger.

Arguing the toss about those two different positions wastes everyone's time and energy on matters which are, frankly, irrelevant.

For more useful is probably to try and take a slightly more objective view of where it makes sense to deploy staff behind traditional counters dedicated to retailing tickets (airport stations, major London/other large city stations, tourist hotspots all seem logical places), where it make sense to have staff in a more hybrid role where they're roving slightly more around the station (so they might be helping with passenger assistance, helping passengers with general queries, helping passengers who need a ticket but are struggling, etc) and where, fundamentally, it might make more sense to just de-staff the station completely.

Thinking local to me I can see an argument for de-staffing Redcar Central. The waiting room is only open when the ticket office is (which is typically only between 0700 and 1330) there is only a disabled toilet (which has radar key access so is actually accessible at all times not just when the waiting room is open) and station facilities wise that's about it. Considering the station is unstaffed after 1330 I'm not sure it's really going to make a massive difference if it was unstaffed all the time. The ticket office certainly gets used but it's been a while since I've seen a massive queue like you would have seen in years gone by. Meanwhile somewhere like Middlesbrough where the station is staffed all day, it's a substantial building and the ticket office is open most of the day (from 0600 ish until 1900 ish) but again doesn't see that much trade and perhaps here an approach of having a good bank of TVMs (there's only one at the moment) with staff more mobile around the station (but there to dip and help out with retail issues as needed) would make sense.

The present situation of just ticket offices open which sell only a few tickets an hour doesn't seem sustainable but getting into a bunfight about it all doesn't seem especially productive compared to thinking about how the resources involved could actually be best deployed. In some places that will be to keep a traditional ticket office, in some places that will likely be outright closure and de-staffing, and in others probably a change in the role of the staff at that station.

RMT/TSSA would, if they hadn't have been riled up by DfT/HMT intransigence more generally, be best served I suspect in working on that basis to get the best deal for their members. But it seems, from this thread at least, we're about to have exactly the same extreme fight where one side insist that no changes can be countenanced at all and the other side insists that everything must change and do so immediately.

That sums it up, perfectly. Sticky that to the start of the thread!

I appreciate that you prefer to interact on a cash basis so that you cannot be tracked

ahh… one of those “I choose to make my life more difficult across a range of everyday life matters, but don’t like it when someone else makes my life more difficult for an event which happens only rarely.

 

[WelshBluebird]

For more useful is probably to try and take a slightly more objective view of where it makes sense to deploy staff behind traditional counters dedicated to retailing tickets (airport stations, major London/other large city stations, tourist hotspots all seem logical places), where it make sense to have staff in a more hybrid role where they're roving slightly more around the station (so they might be helping with passenger assistance, helping passengers with general queries, helping passengers who need a ticket but are struggling, etc) and where, fundamentally, it might make more sense to just de-staff the station completely.

Now maybe this isn't more widespread, but that absolutely already happens in some places. And if anything taking the ticket office part out of their job will just mean that the one member of staff (who already does all those other things) is more likely to be let go (or not replaced upon them leaving)!

I had to refund some e-tickets recently due to a cancelled train that I bought through the Forums ticket site.

I went to the site, chose "refunds", entered the booking reference and email, chose the reason for the request (disruption), and asked for a refund. It was authorised a few hours later and the money arrived a day or two after that. Easy peasy and all done from the convenience of my sofa.

And that is great that one retailer has something easy to use. Not all do. And worse, some retailers have something that should be easy to use but often isn't so it is likely people will be charged an admin fee when they should not be (when I last tried to get a refund via the trainline a couple of weeks ago due to disruption it was still trying to charge me the fee).

 

[Failed Unit]

This thread is long now, so apologies if this is already covered. But it is amazing how things have moved on since the dispute between GTR about closing ticket offices. GTR backed down in the end, but a lot has moved on since then, my local station WGC has since had contactless travel (towards London). A lot of people I know never buy tickets now and use thier contactless card (then seem surprised when they are told sometimes the paper ticket is cheaper).

I walk past the ticket office and at times it has long queues, (Morning peaks) Other times no-one is there.

It is definitely a hard balancing act that I am glad I am not the one needing to do. Welwyn Garden City has a reasonable footfall, but a lot of smaller stations are still manned in the morning for the peaks. I suspect a someone will think cost of employing some x, lost sales y - If lost sales is less than the cost of employing someone then the station will be de-staffed. They certainly won’t think of the other things that doing have a £ on them at the local stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

They certainly won’t think of the other things that doing have a £ on them at the local stations.

“They“ certainly will!

 

[MikeWM]

So in this hypothetical they bought a ticket they couldn't actually afford as it's only due to disruption they're getting the money back in the first place?

They may need to find an alternative and buy tickets for that too. I was fortunate this morning that I could just go home and work from there for the day. But if I'd needed to buy a second ticket, or get a bus or something, having the money back immediately is helpful.

--

ahh… one of those “I choose to make my life more difficult across a range of everyday life matters, but don’t like it when someone else makes my life more difficult for an event which happens only rarely.

Reasons for my preferences apart (which I'll leave to the General Discussion board), that doesn't apply here anyway. My specific point here is that my life is easier the way things currently are, and these changes will make it more difficult.

 

[Mabs]

Well if the government thinks (as in the original story) "[the] public would be better served by moving staff from offices to broader roles on station concourses" then it makes sense.

Though I'm not sure what the difference is between having someone based in the ticket office but who leaves it to do various other tasks round the station and having them not sitting behind a counter even when they have nothing else to do.

But as you say where's the saving so presumably there is a bit more to it than that.

Having many roles need higher pay. For example ticket office staff currently on 25k
Gateline staff on around 18-20k
Cleaners on 18k
Employing three staff would cost around 63k

They want to pay the ticket office staff 30k to do the three roles is daylight robbery. Need to pay a lot more than that. Getting hands dirty for extra 5k is a joke.

 

[Mat17]

At some point we really are going to have to seriously question how reasonable and sensible it is to expect people to have to pay large amounts of money, and have large amounts of highly personal data amassed by, one or other of two huge multinational corporations - merely in order to operate in the world.

Yep this is my fear and why I don't want apps on my phone for everything and everything linked up. I'll happily pay by card or cash. I don't want to have to take my phone everywhere.

 

[Gaelan]

For more useful is probably to try and take a slightly more objective view of where it makes sense to deploy staff behind traditional counters dedicated to retailing tickets (airport stations, major London/other large city stations, tourist hotspots all seem logical places), where it make sense to have staff in a more hybrid role where they're roving slightly more around the station (so they might be helping with passenger assistance, helping passengers with general queries, helping passengers who need a ticket but are struggling, etc) and where, fundamentally, it might make more sense to just de-staff the station completely.

Perhaps I’m being too cynical here, but it’s really hard to imagine these “hybrid staff” receiving the same amount of pay/training, at least once the crop of ex-ticket-office staff retire.

 

[RPI]

Or... They could be sold online? Like the Dales Railcard is.

There are (in my opinion) plenty of good reasons to keep competent staff but there's no need to come up with spurious concerns that have already been addressed elsewhere.

Even if ticket offices remained online application would still be more convenient for many people.

The Devon and Cornwall railcard is now available online from the GWR website, fulfilled through the railcard app.

 

[Mabs]

Sometimes when I'm alone at the station I have to leave my window and sort something out on the platform eg Passenger assist.

When I return i hear some customers moaning "Why is the window shut, I might miss my train"

I reply this station is sometimes a single person station. If you want to moan, moan at the Government. I can only be at one place at a time but as far as customer service is concerned, Passenger assistance is more important than me selling you a ticket".

 

[Steve Harris]

ahh… one of those “I choose to make my life more difficult across a range of everyday life matters, but don’t like it when someone else makes my life more difficult for an event which happens only rarely.

Not necessarily. I prefer cash as I find it's a easier way of keeping track of my spending. Afterall, a wallet in your back pocket won't let you go overdrawn (and incur costs)!! Nor does it need electricity/charging to tell you how much money you have in it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Getting hands dirty for extra 5k is a joke.

Think about those getting their hands dirty for 7k less…

Not necessarily. I prefer cash as I find it's a easier way of keeping track of my spending.

My phone tells me exactly how much money I have, and exactly how much I have spent (on anything, at all) for the last 4 years, almost instantly. Not sure how cash can do that.

 

[Horizon22]

It absolutely does in some situations: for instance buying a ticket for one leg of a journey through a London terminal where you need to interchange. You have to go out of your way to look for a TVM (and hope there aren’t queues). It completely defeats the object of buying online: why can’t all tickets just be downloaded to your phone?

Why not just print them all at the same place? Your ToD location can be wherever you want it to be.

I’m sure e-tickets will be fully integrated in time and I do think it already gives you the option for some journeys but happy to be corrected. Certain journeys (e.g. cross London) wouldn’t be fulfilled as a e-ticket even if it wasn’t a rail staff ticket.

 

[Steve Harris]

Think about those getting their hands dirty for 7k less…



My phone tells me exactly how much money I have, and exactly how much I have spent (on anything, at all) for the last 4 years, almost instantly. Not sure how cash can do that.

Its called keeping your receipts !! You know, them pieces of paper which tell you how much you spent with whom, when and how much VAT you paid !

Actually banking apps (mine certainly doesn't) don't tell you how much the carrots or peas or beer cost on your last shop, yet funnily enough a paper receipt does, so your statement is factually incorrect (certainly using my banks app).

And as I just pointed out in my edited post above, A wallet doesn't run out of charge !!

 

[Horizon22]

Having many roles need higher pay. For example ticket office staff currently on 25k
Gateline staff on around 18-20k
Cleaners on 18k
Employing three staff would cost around 63k

They want to pay the ticket office staff 30k to do the three roles is daylight robbery. Need to pay a lot more than that. Getting hands dirty for extra 5k is a joke.

That’s not how task allocation works though. The ticket office, gate-line and cleaning staff are probably not engaged in active duties all at the same time.

Also you’re not necessarily talking about big hubs here although it would be interesting to see what the largest station (by passenger numbers) is that is slated to have the ticket office removed.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps I’m being too cynical here, but it’s really hard to imagine these “hybrid staff” receiving the same amount of pay/training, at least once the crop of ex-ticket-office staff retire.

Exactly. We’ve already see this happen on TFL, where being brutally honest a proportion of station staff now may as well not be there - and it’s not their fault, rather TFL’s fault for not properly skilling them up to be useful.

 

[Mabs]

Exactly. We’ve already see this happen on TFL, where being brutally honest a proportion of station staff now may as well not be there - and it’s not their fault, rather TFL’s fault for not properly skilling them up to be useful.

Atleast TFL pay 40k for the same role.
If things are bad in the Railway il just have to go full time at TFL.

Also a pay rise is on its way. There is a lot more than just providing customer service.

We are tested every 6 months on the safety procedures and sit exams every 12 months.

If something goes wrong, we can quickly sort the problem or assist the emergency services the best way possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

Its called keeping your receipts !! You know, them pieces of paper which tell you how much you spent with whom, when and how much VAT you paid !

Actually banking apps (mine certainly doesn't) don't tell you how much the carrots or peas or beer cost on your last shop, yet funnily enough a paper receipt does, so your statement is factually incorrect (certainly using my banks app).

And as I just pointed out in my edited post above, A wallet doesn't run out of charge !!

My last word as I’m off topic but:

1) My Sainsburys app shows me my receipts
2) my phone has never run out of charge (as I manage it)

 

[ainsworth74]

They may need to find an alternative and buy tickets for that too. I was fortunate this morning that I could just go home and work from there for the day. But if I'd needed to buy a second ticket, or get a bus or something, having the money back immediately is helpful.

Fair point I'll grant you that! Still though. Not entirely convinced by the need to keep ticket offices (the traditional sort anyway) at all the stations that currently have them just because of the occasional need to refund tickets.

Perhaps I’m being too cynical here, but it’s really hard to imagine these “hybrid staff” receiving the same amount of pay/training, at least once the crop of ex-ticket-office staff retire.

Yep that's definitely a valid concern and one that I share! But it feeds into a wider issue we seem to have (and have done for a while now) there is no trust. Pretty much any change that anyone suggests can be shot down by saying "yeah but how long will X actually be the case?" or "Well within a few years Y will no longer apply". Which is a recipe for doing nothing which is a long term recipe for disaster.

Now maybe this isn't more widespread, but that absolutely already happens in some places. And if anything taking the ticket office part out of their job will just mean that the one member of staff (who already does all those other things) is more likely to be let go (or not replaced upon them leaving)!

See my comments about trust above!

And that is great that one retailer has something easy to use. Not all do. And worse, some retailers have something that should be easy to use but often isn't so it is likely people will be charged an admin fee when they should not be (when I last tried to get a refund via the trainline a couple of weeks ago due to disruption it was still trying to charge me the fee).

Well, that's what you get for using Trainline, members of this forum should know better

But yes that is another valid criticism. The industries balkanisation has meant that the online retail offer is itself balkanised and different TOCs will give you very different experiences ranging from the delightfully smooth to the incredibly irritating. Another area where a "guiding mind" should have been in place to wrestle a bit of consistency into the picture. That's quite apart from the absurd issue that an admin fee is charged for an online self-service system...

 

[ScotGG]

If the government keeps to their promise about keeping the staff on the platforms and concourse to assist then this is really no big issue. Will they do that however is another question entirely!

No chance.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd say it does, regardless or whether or not you want to argue the toss over "no pension" vs "no meaningful pension".

In response to the above, "no pension" is what was claimed by the website contributor in the text of the original posting that I queried. I am sure that the vast majority of thread contributors know the difference between the two items you mention above.

 

[Llandudno]

My experience is the opposite. The ticket office refuses to sell various tickets which can be bought from the TVM opposite and/or online (which can be collected from the same TVM if required). Some 'out of area' tickets I can even get from my local corner shop where the minimum wage staff are far more accommodating than the higher paid booking office staff.

Presumably you are referring to the staff at Sheffield station booking office….!

 

[Killingworth]

There's another thread "You know you're getting old when..."

My local station hasnt had a ticket office since 1969, nor have any others on our line. We used to buy from the guard. Then all got ticket machines and some travellers declined to use them. Younger people were quick to adopt electronic methods and I'd estmate almost 80% of all travellers are now using that method and non payers are relatively few. The transition has been remakebly quick.

I recall my mother visting our local shops every day. She'd stand at the counter and the assistant woukd walk up and down to colect the items on her list. Bisciukts came from a square tin and weighed into brown paper bags. Sugar came from a sack and weighed into bluer 2lb bags. Butter and cheese would be cut and wrapped into greaseproof paper. Ham woukd be sliced to order. Then self service arrived. Goods were cheaper there. I was sent off on my bike to seek them out. Supermarkets got bigger and a car was needed! But I'm digressing too far.

Users of small stations have had no choice for decades and they've found how to manage.I had cause to visit the ticket office at Newcastle recently. The two ladies seemed pleased to see someone. I'm sure there'll be short periods when they are busy and that's the sort of place that will keep manned service. I've also visted a number of smaller manned stations, most only part time, and can't see why they have to be.

However, there are other actions performed by staff that benefit passengers and safe running of the railway. I have in my mind a few stations where staff clearly care deeply for their stations* and have gone an extra mile to make them attractive. (Sone station adoption groups do similarly.)

Where do lines get drawn? Might withdrawal of staff cost more in vandalism and lack of perceived public aafety? How do such issues get factored in?

*I called at Poynton station just before Covid. 2 TVMs and manned. A superb station better kept than many heritage line stations or those with strong adoption groups. Clearly a labour of love by the regular clerk. I'd not have the heart to make a change.

 

[alex397]

It makes me worry about disabled people. Those with eyesight issues or those that would struggle to use a ticket machine.
Sure, they have had to get used to the various unstaffed stations, but getting rid off ticket offices and major stations in cities and towns would be a major blow. I don’t want to be condescending - many disabled people are perfectly capable of using online ticketing. But there are also many who are not.

 

[Snow1964]

I have used a station in Italy where ticket office was long closed, and they were by fluke removing the TVMs on day we were there.

Instead they had installed 2 full ticket machines behind the counter of the adjacent newsagents and cafe, one was next to a lottery machine.

My local station has ticket office open Mon-Fri to lunchtime, (closed weekends), and there is coffee van outside too at same time. Wouldn't be too hard to combine both.

Many locals seem to prefer to buy or collect tickets because they travel in pairs, or family groups, and e-tickets are hopeless for multiple passengers at gateline barriers.