Ideas for alternative (non Scotrail/FGW) sleeper services?

[Bartsimho]

mods note - split from this thread

With the Caledonian Sleeper actually being full could there be an attempt to tender OAO Sleepers.

They would be basically new markets due to the lack of night trains in this country and there is a renaissance of sleepers across Europe.

 

[Bald Rick]

With the Caledonian Sleeper actually being full could there be an attempt to tender OAO Sleepers

1) nobody ‘tenders’ open access; companies choose to do it themselves

2) given the average subsidy per passenger of the CS, an OA operator would need to be confident of charging, on average, about 50% more than the current CS fares, and have an similar (ie very high) occupancy rate in order to get a return on their investment and make a profit.

3) the market for sleepers in this country is quite limited, as it is for open access generally. You need London at one end.

 

[MrJeeves]

You need London at one end.

Or, potentially, a reversal out of a London Terminal, continuing further south to, say, Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton, etc.? Market probably isn't very wide for that though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or, potentially, a reversal out of a London Terminal, continuing further south to, say, Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton, etc.? Market probably isn't very wide for that though.

or capacity.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I dunno, perhaps a boat train/railsail sleeper from Dover/Harwich to London and beyond coulddddddd work?

If the overall cost of the rail sleeper and ferry ticket is slightly advantageous to a train/hotel/Eurostar or something like that than I could see it work.

 

[AlterEgo]

I dunno, perhaps a boat train/railsail sleeper from Dover/Harwich to London and beyond coulddddddd work?

If the overall cost of the rail sleeper and ferry ticket is slightly advantageous to a train/hotel/Eurostar or something like that then I could see it work.

How do you propose getting the trains onto and off the ferry? There isn’t the infrastructure nor the ferries lying around to do that.

 

[MrJeeves]

How do you propose getting the trains onto and off the ferry? There isn’t the infrastructure nor the ferries lying around to do that.

Sailrail was also an option listed!

 

[ShadowKnight]

How do you propose getting the trains onto and off the ferry? There isn’t the infrastructure nor the ferries lying around to do that.

Boat train as in a train to the port from the other side of the country. Like previously from Harwich to places like Manchester

 

[Samsanbor]

Sailrail was also an option listed!

Where are you taking this information from?
An option for what?

I dunno, perhaps a boat train/railsail sleeper from Dover/Harwich to London and beyond coulddddddd work?

If the overall cost of the rail sleeper and ferry ticket is slightly advantageous to a train/hotel/Eurostar or something like that than I could see it work.

Could you possibly elaborate this please?
What is making you thinking this could be a more advantageous idea compared to the current service?

 

[MrJeeves]

Where are you taking this information from?
An option for what?

Simply the person's speculative message which was quoted. They said boat train or sail rail as an idea.

 

[zwk500]

Off topic, but given sailrail certainly used to exist on the Harwich route if its ended then its probably not economic to sustain.
And if sailrail ticketing isn't viable, there's no way in lordy a train ferry would be.

 

[AlterEgo]

Boat train as in a train to the port from the other side of the country. Like previously from Harwich to places like Manchester

Oh I thought you meant the other way - into the continent!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I always like to think a NE to SW one would work but I suspect not.

 

[43096]

mods note - split from this thread

With the Caledonian Sleeper actually being full could there be an attempt to tender OAO Sleepers.

They would be basically new markets due to the lack of night trains in this country and there is a renaissance of sleepers across Europe.

Given the subsidy the existing sleepers need (ie they are not profitable) then there is not going to be any sort of financial case for an open access sleeper service.

As the old saying goes, you could make a small fortune out of running open access sleepers in the UK, but only if you start with a very large fortune.

 

[Trainbike46]

Off topic, but given sailrail certainly used to exist on the Harwich route if its ended then its probably not economic to sustain.
And if sailrail ticketing isn't viable, there's no way in lordy a train ferry would be.

I thought Sailrail ticketing does exist for the Harwich-Hook of holland ferry, but only to/from Greater Anglia stations. Personally, I think that is an odd limitation

 

[brad465]

London-Holyhead to connect to the Dublin ferry link? I suspect though flying is considerably more attractive.

 

[zwk500]

I thought Sailrail ticketing does exist for the Harwich-Hook of holland ferry, but only to/from Greater Anglia stations. Personally, I think that is an odd limitation

I got lost with it all, but yes AIUI you could buy the ferry ticket as part of your UK rail journey but would then need to have a separate ticket for onward travel in the Netherlands.

London-Holyhead to connect to the Dublin ferry link? I suspect though flying is considerably more attractive.

Through tickets already exist, but running a sleeper wouldn't really work as the journey time to the ferry isn't workable at all. You can get a cabin on the ferry if you want.

 

[jagardner1984]

I think the other way of looking at it would be where there is a busy flight link but unattractive rail timings.

As I recall, it also requires the co-operation of Network Rail as to which routes can be made available overnight.

So in terms of the flight link, what about

Edinburgh 2200
Glasgow 2315
Carlisle 0030
Preston ….
Crewe ….
Watford 0530
Clapham Junction 0630
Southampton 0800

So you do both of the Scottish pickups, you still get a London drop off with loads of onward connections. And Southampton has 9 flights a day from the two airports.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the other way of looking at it would be where there is a busy flight link but unattractive rail timings.

As I recall, it also requires the co-operation of Network Rail as to which routes can be made available overnight.

So in terms of the flight link, what about

Edinburgh 2200
Glasgow 2315
Carlisle 0030
Preston ….
Crewe ….
Watford 0530
Clapham Junction 0630
Southampton 0800

So you do both of the Scottish pickups, you still get a London drop off with loads of onward connections. And Southampton has 9 flights a day from the two airports.

That market was covered by a sleeper 30 or so years ago. The market was covered by 2 x sleeper vehicles each way per night, and it failed very quickly.

 

[jagardner1984]

That market was covered by a sleeper 30 or so years ago. The market was covered by 2 x sleeper vehicles each way per night, and it failed very quickly.

So is the truthful answer to this thread that any other sleepers on any other routes are not viable, really ?

 

[Bartsimho]

That market was covered by a sleeper 30 or so years ago. The market was covered by 2 x sleeper vehicles each way per night, and it failed very quickly.

How much has changed in those 30 years. I would say quite a lot especially Climate consciousness

 

[Bald Rick]

So is the truthful answer to this thread that any other sleepers on any other routes are not viable, really ?

Given that the existing sleepers are not viable, and are kept alive by politics, it is safe to assume that no other sleepers in this country would be viable.

How much has changed in those 30 years. I would say quite a lot especially Climate consciousness

Indeed. Albeit that doesn’t stop them flying.

 

[RT4038]

Given that the existing sleepers are viable,

..... not viable, presumably?

 

[AlterEgo]

So is the truthful answer to this thread that any other sleepers on any other routes are not viable, really ?

Yes. No critical markets quite large enough and the geography of the UK is not quite suited to running anything else.

 

[Bartsimho]

Indeed. Albeit that doesn’t stop them flying.

Is this a Chicken or Egg thing? They fly because there are no other connections or has flying killed the other connections?

The fact that they get compensation and bags are covered helps but I don't see a reason this couldn't be incorporated for a sleeper train especially.

 

[jagardner1984]

If someone were to put a Carbon Tax on Transport (i.e. Short Haul Aircraft, lots, Electric Train, little, Petrol Car, somewhere in between), then the viability of some things just might change.

Using an extreme example, if I were to for example install some rocket infrastructure outside my house, a la NASA, then I might get to London somewhat quicker. At some point you have to make some calls as to what is necessary and what is unnecessary, and tax accordingly. (For example, subsidised flights to otherwise very isolated island communities by the Scottish Government). It is hard to argue where a 2 hour Avanti train from Piccadilly exists - numerous flights Manchester to London are particularly necessary.

I would have thought Electric trains moving at slow speeds on otherwise unused infrastructure do pretty well on this calculation, and I note that recent Caledonian Sleeper bookings have presented the carbon savings much more prominently.

 

[edwin_m]

I always like to think a NE to SW one would work but I suspect not.

If our government was prepared to offer a large subsidy to reduce domestic air travel then this would probably be the one to go for. Modern Railways had an article on such a proposal a few years ago. It would obviously be more useful if it could serve Birmingham too, and I think the idea was to set some timings that didn't involve calling there in the small hours of the morning.

 

[Bald Rick]

..... not viable, presumably?

Ahem, yes.

Is this a Chicken or Egg thing? They fly because there are no other connections or has flying killed the other connections?

But there are connections. Day trains, and of course the existing sleeper with a connection.

If someone were to put a Carbon Tax on Transport (i.e. Short Haul Aircraft, lots, Electric Train, little, Petrol Car, somewhere in between), then the viability of some things just might change.

Where does ‘diesel train with very few people on it’ come into this equation? I demonstrated on another thread that the carbon footprint of just the diesel hauled parts of the highland sleeper is not that far off flying from London…

 

[JonathanH]

I would say quite a lot especially Climate consciousness

Using sleepers is akin to greenwashing though, as pointed out by 'Bald Rick' in the previous post. It would be much more efficient to travel in an electric coach or travel by electric day train because those can carry passengers more efficiently.

It would obviously be more useful if it could serve Birmingham too, and I think the idea was to set some timings that didn't involve calling there in the small hours of the morning.

If a sleeper stops at Birmingham at 7am, it is still going to be too early for some, yet 'get in the way' of day trains further south. The 0712 from Birmingham New Street gets to Plymouth at 1047, so that means Penzance after midday.

 

[Bartsimho]

Using sleepers is akin to greenwashing though, as pointed out by 'Bald Rick' in the previous post. It would be much more efficient to travel in an electric coach or travel by electric day train because those can carry passengers more efficiently.

Greenwashing? If travelling by sleeper trains is greenwashing you should tell a massive chunk of Europe and the EU that considering there has been a renaissance in sleeper trains there.

And as sleepers are usually locomotives and coaches why couldn't electric locos be used. Sleepers have an advantage over air travel of comfort as rather than having to be awake and alert for the journey you can be sleeping.

Also for all trains the Carbon footprint in grams of carbon dioxide equivalent per kilometer is 35.49 compared to Domestic flights of 245.9 and even BEV cars of 51.4. (Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics...travel-per-kilometer-by-mode-of-transport-uk/ )

Trains are some of the best ways to travel for emissions and the fact that any Edinburgh/Glasgow to England train can use Electric Loco's for at least part of it makes it even better.

To even use the idea of Greenwashing is naïve in this circumstance.

If sleepers are combined with checking in luggage and a luggage car connected to airports and the air travel directly it would get a good number of people using it.